What you guys are stuck at

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@James123 Nondual language lacks clarity for ordinary folk. It makes total sense to you - no doubt

But think about this for a moment - you are attempting to communicate, or teach.

You might need to alter the language to point in a better way for students to receive, ay? Otherwise I see you banging your head against the wall... What the f is the point of typing anything at all if it cannot be understood by those that need it? And those that do not, typically understand.

Spaghetti loops being thrown at the wall hoping for something to stick.

Edited October 28 by Natasha Tori Maru

[James123]

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

You might need to alter the language to point in a better way for students to receive, ay?

Any expectations belongs to ego.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, James123 said:

Any expectations belongs to ego.

Yes. You see that in you? I hope so.

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

But think about this for a moment - you are attempting to communicate, or teach.

Just use the zen stick and beat people into enlightenment.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Just use the zen stick and beat people into enlightenment.

I am glad I am no longer a huge 4chan seasoned troll...

here

[James123]

7 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Yes. You see that in you? I hope so.

What do I expect? I am not a teacher nor guru nor enlightened nor devotee nor anyone.

I am the way that I am. 

[zurew]

4 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

am glad I am no longer a huge 4chan seasoned troll...

He actually takes the view that nothing has an effect on enlightenment, not just that nothing can cause it ,so under that view  - he could literally video himself throwing spaghetti loops at the wall and have as much expectation of anyone getting enlightened as if he would do 10 enlightenment workshops.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, James123 said:

What do I expect? I am not a teacher nor guru nor enlightened nor devotee nor anyone.

I am the way that I am. 

But you are performing - which is the point

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, zurew said:

He actually takes the view that nothing has an effect on enlightenment, not just that nothing can cause it ,so under that view  - he could literally video himself throwing spaghetti loops at the wall and have as much expectation of anyone getting enlightened as if he would do 10 enlightenment workshops.

EXACTLY - and yep I am familiar with James's view. He is similar over on Nahm's forum. He likes to duplicate his threads there over here also

Nothing guarantees enlightenment or nothing has the effect? In your view

[James123]

2 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

But you are performing - which is the point

This is not performing. What you have is, seeing trough belief. Putting emotional understanding.

These are just sentences. No more than that.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

I don't think something can effect enlightenment. Nothing guarantees it. It is not a thing that happens to you.

It is more a realization in the direct sense of what one actually is. Independent of perception, thought, experience.

 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 minutes ago, James123 said:

This is not performing. What you have is, seeing trough belief. Putting emotional understanding.

These are just sentences. No more than that.

But there is the attempt to instruct. Ego

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Nothing guarantees enlightenment or nothing has the effect? In your view

Im arguing about this exact thing with @UnbornTao and im still confused on his view.

The honest answer is that I have no clue, but my assumption is that things can have an effect on it, but they dont cause it.

The entailment of nothing having any effect on it seem to lead us to conclusions that I dont think any zen/neo-advaita duder would wanna bite. Cause then they give me a good reason to not let them to just freely hit me with the zen stick -  let me conceptualize as much as I want, since conceptualizing has as much chance leading me there as anything else. 

[James123]

4 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

EXACTLY - and yep I am familiar with James's view. He is similar over on Nahm's forum. He likes to duplicate his threads there over here also

Posting on 2 or 5 different forum is just posting on 2 or 5 different forum.

That's it.

Rest is ego. 

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

But there is the attempt to instruct. Ego

If there is a any attempt to instruct, I will talk as what people expect or the way people understand. 

When I say I breath, you can say how nice you breathe or how bad you breathe. 

That's just a breath, body functions, such as these writings.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

6 minutes ago, zurew said:

Im arguing about this exact thing with @UnbornTao and im still confused on his view.

The honest answer is that I have no clue, but my assumption is that things can have an effect on it, but they dont cause it.

The entailment of nothing having any effect on it seem to lead us to conclusions that I dont think any zen/neo-advaita duder would wanna bite. Cause then they give me a good reason to not let them to just freely hit me with the zen stick -  let me conceptualize as much as I want, since conceptualizing has as much chance leading me there as anything else. 

I get you.

I have the view that there are things that can assist in breaking through - mental constructs? - that reveal. I think there is no guarantee anything works. How to tell a fish it is in water sort of shit. Maybe 'Whatever penetrates the illusion of being something, can result in enlightenment. Whatever that may be'.

I go back and forth a lot. Not really firm in my view at all. 

[zurew]

19 minutes ago, zurew said:

Im arguing about this exact thing with @UnbornTao and im still confused on his view.

The honest answer is that I have no clue, but my assumption is that things can have an effect on it, but they dont cause it.

The entailment of nothing having any effect on it seem to lead us to conclusions that I dont think any zen/neo-advaita duder would wanna bite. Cause then they give me a good reason to not let them to just freely hit me with the zen stick -  let me conceptualize as much as I want, since conceptualizing has as much chance leading me there as anything else.

I also think that a good chunk of the confusion comes from not being clear about certain things.

So for example, there is a difference between what Reality's nature is and between the realization of that nature.

 

Realization/recognition is time related, nature isn't and both of these can be true at the same time. It can be true that reality's nature has always been the case(in an eternal - non time dependent way,) but it can also be true that the recognition of said nature is time related.

Edited October 28 by zurew

[Natasha Tori Maru]

8 minutes ago, zurew said:

I also think that a good chunk of the confusion comes from not being clear about certain things.

So for example, there is a difference between what Reality's nature is and between the realization of that nature.

 

Realization/recognition is time time related, nature isn't and both of these can be true at the same time. It can be true that reality's nature has always been the case(in an eternal - non time dependent way,) but it can also be true that the recognition of said nature is time related.

Do you think the answer lies in the reconciliation between realities nature and the realisation of that nature? Domain crossover - unless I am misunderstanding you.

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Do you think the answer lies in the reconciliation between realities nature and the realisation of that nature? Domain crossover - unless I am misunderstanding you.

I think its useful to make that distinction to avoid some language games, but its nowhere near sufficient to have an answer.

If we dont make that dinstinction, then  I dont know  frankly what we are doing here - because all of us are already enlightened then.

 

But the question is - Is it random, can certain things have an effect on it, and or can certain things actually cause it?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@zurew Yes I agree with the urgency to clarify that distinction to be able to proceed.

I think a lot of the back and forth could be avoided if language and terms were better defined. I know, for example, that Leo has some definitions for terms I have not come across in general use. And when prompting him in the past - he has slight nuances in his application of his worldview that can change the entire meaning of a statement without even considering context.

I have the strong impression Leo isn't even aware he has made these distinctions until he is prompted to explain. OR - he does know, but has not had reason to clarify until the discrepancy is revealed. In no way is this a criticism to him, but there is no point in playing checkers if we all have a different ruleset.

And I think due to the experiential and subjective nature of what we are discussing... we are trying to understand one domain through the context of another. Concepts to thoughts to language attempting to explain awareness, being. 

And when the discussion gets to the above - one hits a ceiling. Because all concepts thoughts and the language we use has to be dropped to get anywhere near enlightenment.

Sort of makes all of this totally moot

But hey! It's not going to stop any of us trying. And those nuances and distinctions are there to steer the arrow just a bit better.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

13 minutes ago, zurew said:

I But the question is - Is it random, can certain things have an effect on it, and or can certain things actually cause it?

I return to this as the heart of it. 

I come to - I think some things have a higher probability. But it seems very unique to the complex of the individual. Nothing guarantees it. And I won't get anywhere near it by thinking or concepts. I have this intuition the only way - higher probability of reaching realization - is through the body sensations and feedback of some sort.