Scholar

Dumbfounding bigotry of the Progressives

69 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Liberals have never persecuted incestuous adult relationships that were free of abuse. You say they're biggots, post a quote of a bigoted comment about this.

The same basically applied to homosexuality when it was illegal. And no, this is not actually true, there are lawyers in germany for example who specialize in cases in which family members (often siblings reunited in adulthood), get criminally prosecuted as other family members report them to the police.

Even if this was not the case however, the fact that it is defacto illegal and highly stigmatized means that all the negative impacts of such laws apply to such individuals.

I'm not going to look up bigots for you, there is plenty on them to be found. Whenever the topic comes up online you have a majority who views incest as revolting and evil.

 

 

Edited by Scholar

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

My own direct experience.

So you are generalizing from your own experience onto everyone? Do you realize that this is as problematic as a victim of homosexual child predation projecting their own experience onto homosexuality as a universal?

Edited by Scholar

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1 minute ago, Scholar said:

So you are generalizing from your own experience onto everyone? Do you realize that this is as problematic as a victim of homosexual child predation projecting their own experience onto homosexuality as a universal?

You are taking my words completely out of context, and no amount of arguing is going to help. I will not entertain your bait.

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

You are taking my words completely out of context, and no amount of arguing is going to help. I will not entertain your bait.

There is no bait here. You are projecting your own experience onto everyone else, this is what is happening. Which is equivalent to an individual projecting their "bad interracial" experience onto interracial experiences as whole.

We have data on this. When incest happens in a consensual context, even between minors, it has generally no negative impacts and sometimes even has positive impacts on things like sexual confidence in females.

 

But independent of what your own experience is, you should be able to articulate what makes incest universally wrong, meaning that individuals who participate in such relationships are universally immoral for doing so (independent of if they had grown up together, are twins, their relationship being perfectly healthy and maybe even legal etc).

Edited by Scholar

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Posted (edited)

Looks like the problem with drugs in Oregon is much more complex than just "decriminalization bad".
 

The policy started during covid and during the protests for George Floyd, which resulted in defunding the police. Also, they did very poorly on everything aside from the decriminalization itself, which, by itself, doesn't solve anything. There are better examples in Europe. 

Also, it seems that there was a huge rise in overdoses 1~2 years before the decriminalization policy. 

Edited by Recursoinominado

From Brazil

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@Scholar I am not in the business of collecting data and creating an ideology out of it.

I am focused on my own personal journey, so that is where we differ.

So let me revise my statement:

"Incest is wrong from my direct experience, and everybody close to me got hurt in the end."

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

@Scholar I am not in the business of collecting data and creating an ideology out of it.

I am focused on my own personal journey, so that is where we differ.

So let me revise my statement:

"Incest is wrong from my direct experience, and everybody close to me got hurt in the end."

Sure, "Homosexuality is wrong from my direct experience, and everyone close to me got hurt in the end.".

Not that long ago, this would have been a common statement of individuals who engaged in homosexuals acts when they were still demonized. Given that you brought your own experience into this as a way of making an argument from authority, but do not actually get into what happened, I will speculate:

If what happened to you was not abuse, I wager the only factors that made it "wrong" were probably either in relation to the consequences the break-up of the romantic relationship had for your familial relationships in general, or it was due various factors resulting from the stigmatization of such a relationship: The shame, secrecy and inter-familial conflict that resulted from the fact that such relationships are considered inherently taboo in our society (no different from interracial or homosexual relationships in the past).

To therefore project wrongness onto the act itself, contributing to the demonization of individuals who find themselves in such relationships (be it due to parental neglect, development of codependency and so forth) to me is irresponsible. You are just making it less likely that individuals in such situations are able to get help, because you do condemn and consider them wrong for being in that situation.

Edited by Scholar

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@Scholar Thank you for your perspective, I will ponder upon it.

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Posted (edited)

I want to stress that we as a society never get to see positive and healthy examples of such relationships because the stigma and criminalization selects for pathology. Not only is every media that depicts incest basically doing so from the point of view of it being inherently pathological and immoral, but so is every case of incest that is brought to the public. Only individuals who are exceptionally irresponsible or abusive actually get exposed through various forms of inquiry.

Individuals who are responsible, either do not engage in such relationships, only do so in the short term or maintain secrecy. Furthermore, individuals who develop feelings towards their family members have no framework through which to express or internalize those in a healthy way. This itself drives them towards pathology. There is no valid way to express these feelings, to talk about them, to know how to deal with them. Couples who do choose to maintain a relationship are driven into secrecy and social isolation, to such a degree that we know individuals who become victims of abuse do not reach out to family or police in fear of their relationship being exposed. 

This means there are various factors, even more so than with homosexuality (given there is a stronger selective pressure here in absence of a drive that is immutable) that highly biases this phenomena towards pathology. We know that pathology emerges under conditions of repression, secrecy and criminalization, it was the case with every other form of sexuality that was stigmatized this way.

 

One of the key issues is that incest is viewed (intentionally) as a monolithic phenomena. We group in incestuous child-predation. parent-child grooming, relationships with significant powerdynamics into the same phenomena as perfectly consensual relationships between equivalent individuals and even those who did not grow up in a familial context. It's all incest, and we somehow evaluate it as if it was one thing we had to determine was either wrong or acceptable.

But this is obviously absurd. When we consider if interracial relationships are acceptable, we don't look at how white slave masters raped their black slaves and then think to ourselves "As a whole, are interracial sexual acts positive or negative?", or look at child predation perpretrated by homosexual predators and lump them in with homosexual acts as a whole.

Clearly there are forms of incestuous interactions and relationships that are unacceptable. Sometimes the argument of powerdynamics can apply, especially when there is large age gaps or family members are put in positions of authority over others. 

 

But the fact that we have people in here who consider the phenomena of adult siblings around the same age being in a romantic relationship to be the equivalent of catholic priest raping children is really everything you need to know about how unsophisticated our approach is. And sadly, predators and groomers benefit from this confusion, from the taboo, from the shame and silence of their victims and the utter inability of us to actually pinpoint and articulate where the actual problems lie.

Edited by Scholar

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