How The Hell You Reach Play As An INTJ?

[Joshe]

45 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Ok now after reading your discussion with @Ramanujan  I did some research on the stuff you talk about, the personality types and interactions. 

Nice, yes, very interesting stuff! 

49 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

You remember the discussion we had in the other thread? Now I'm more willing to balance my behavior towards others and become a bit more restrained

Haha, how did you arrive there? 

[theleelajoker]

8 hours ago, Joshe said:

Nice, yes, very interesting stuff! 

Haha, how did you arrive there? 

Had recently interactions that you mentioned. Me saying sth, an insight, the other person did not know it and felt insecure and inferior about it. To make things worse, they then projected their insecurity on me and I got bad reactions. Funny thing is that with one particular insight, I also told a third person about it and she was super happy to hear that. So it was neither my presentation nor the insight that mattered, the persons attitude towards was crucial.

Hence my stance was - up until now - twofold:

1. People that want to listen learn will do that. Those that don't want to listen - not my problem, they don't fit with me. So it's like a filter for social interactions
2. People that can't take knowledge/ insights from others should learn to do that more, simply because it's win win and otherwise lose-lose. I thought it's an area for growth for them. So I had resistance towards them being so closed

What changed is:

1. More interactions where people reacted negatively to information that was a) obvious and b) helpful. So more lose-lose for both. 
2. I don't see it as a thing anymore that others should change. To say, it's not a bug but a feature that they are how they are. Reading through the personality types just made me see things more relaxed, like a video game where you can't expect the warrior character to be a magician. It created kind of a mathematical perspective on humans for me, just a set of programs in body, mind, character. 

So It's one thing for friends, acquaintances, colleagues etc. I think I will just talk and share less unless asked, and tone down everything 95% lol. But re girlfriend, partner it also became more obvious for me that I need someone that likes and enjoys this kind of exchange

Edited August 13 by theleelajoker

[Joshe]

9 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Had recently interactions that you mentioned. Me saying sth, an insight, the other person did not know it and felt insecure and inferior about it. To make things worse, they then projected their insecurity on me and I got bad reactions. Funny thing is that with one particular insight, I also told a third person about it and she was super happy to hear that. So it was neither my presentation nor the insight that mattered, the persons attitude towards was crucial.

Hence my stance was - up until now - twofold:

1. People that want to listen learn will do that. Those that don't want to listen - not my problem, they don't fit with me. So it's like a filter for social interactions
2. People that can't take knowledge/ insights from others should learn to do that more, simply because it's win win and otherwise lose-lose. I thought it's an area for growth for them. So I had resistance towards them being so closed

What changed is:

1. More interactions where people reacted negatively to information that was a) obvious and b) helpful. So more lose-lose for both. 
2. I don't see it as a thing anymore that others should change. To say, it's not a bug but a feature that they are how they are. Reading through the personality types just made me see things more relaxed, like a video game where you can't expect the warrior character to be a magician. It created kind of a mathematical perspective on humans for me, just a set of programs in body, mind, character. 

So It's one thing for friends, acquaintances, colleagues etc. I think I will just talk and share less unless asked, and tone down everything 95% lol. But re girlfriend, partner it also became more obvious for me that I need someone that likes and enjoys this kind of exchange

Yes! People are who they are, and who are we to tell them to be like us or that they should be interested in things we are? Trying to force our way onto them when our way is foreign to them.

Wanting them to be like us stems from us not wanting to be alone in the world and wanting to share our inner world with them, but the fact is, we're a rare breed. But it's like you said, this can be accepted and even be seen as beautiful. 

I like that you said it's a feature, not a bug, because I realized that as well and wrapped it in the phrase "everything is for everything else". Not sure if that makes sense. Everyone can learn from everyone else. All personalities could be seen as necessary for the whole. We need people who are not deeply spiritual. We need deep and shallow thinkers.

And yes, if you seek a best friend or girlfriend, you have to find someone who you don't have to tone it down with. I mean, you'll still likely have to tone it down a little, but ideally, not very much. I found a few of these people and it's very nice. I never found it in a girl though, but I didn't look very hard either. 

Edited August 13 by Joshe

[theleelajoker]

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

Yes! People are who they are, and who are we to tell them to be like us or that they should be interested in things we are? Trying to force our way onto them when our way is foreign to them.

Wanting them to be like us stems from us not wanting to be alone in the world and wanting to share our inner world with them, but the fact is, we're a rare breed. But it's like you said, this can be accepted and even be seen as beautiful. 

I like that you said it's a feature, not a bug, because I realized that as well and wrapped it in the phrase "everything is for everything else". Not sure if that makes sense. Everyone can learn from everyone else. All personalities could be seen as necessary for the whole. We need people who are not deeply spiritual. We need deep and shallow thinkers.

. 

Yes it's a learning process for me. I think it stems from my upbringing, there were clear expectations how we kids should be, and those expectations were flawed even if our parents want the best for their us. So I went away from those sub-optimal expectations, to more "noble" stuff, such as being open and deep,  and expected others to be like this. And tatataaaa, unintentionally, the circle is completed

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

And yes, if you seek a best friend or girlfriend, you have to find someone who you don't have to tone it down with. I mean, you'll still likely have to tone it down a little, but ideally, not very much. I found a few of these people and it's very nice. I never found it in a girl though, but I didn't look very hard either. 

I have an ex I recently talked to. I was very open, she very grateful for that and I realized "ahhh ok it's actually possible to find a woman where I can talk freely". The disclaimer is again - how long would that work? My previous GF also appreciated the openness a lot.. until she didn't. I guess it's not easy to stay on the same development path as a couple.

Edited August 13 by theleelajoker

[Joshe]

4 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Yes it's a learning process for me. I think it stems from my upbringing, there were clear expectations how we kids should be, and those expectations were flawed even if our parents want the best for their us. So I went away from those sub-optimal expectations, to more "noble" stuff, such as being open and deep,  and expected others to be like this. And tatataaaa, unintentionally, the circle is completed

I have an ex I recently talked to. I was very open, she very grateful for that and I realized "ahhh ok it's actually possible to find a woman where I can talk freely". The disclaimer is again - how long would that work? My previous GF also appreciated the openness a lot.. until she didn't. I guess it's not easy to stay on the same development path as a couple.

I just got used to being the one who listens and if there’s an opening for me, I take it, but try not to impose too much of my thinking onto them, but it inevitably happens. And when it does, I notice immediately and gauge receptivity, and just switch back to listener mode if it was too much. I kinda got good at switching back in a way that makes them feel more comfortable with my strangeness. Like, I’ll go into something deep and then put them back on their train of thought as to not totally discombobulate them. “Anyway, you were saying…” 😂

[theleelajoker]

6 hours ago, Joshe said:

I just got used to being the one who listens and if there’s an opening for me, I take it, but try not to impose too much of my thinking onto them, but it inevitably happens. And when it does, I notice immediately and gauge receptivity, and just switch back to listener mode if it was too much. I kinda got good at switching back in a way that makes them feel more comfortable with my strangeness. Like, I’ll go into something deep and then put them back on their train of thought as to not totally discombobulate them. “Anyway, you were saying…” 😂

Yeah, I get you. This "you were saying XYZ" is something I also use sometimes. Bringing them back to what they SAID, paraphrasing, summarizing, instead of what I see they likely MEANT. Because often, people don't have transparency re their own line of thoughts and words. So you need to meet them where they are and - IF you have the patience - slowly lead them.

Best case is then friends, girls where you have a back and forth with each other on the same level. Like playing ping pong, but with the goal of "make it as easy as possible for the other to reach the ball".

You know the "meta language" idea from Bandler and Grinder? Basically it brings you down not what people say, but why they say it right now in this way they are saying, what's the motive, meaning, the underlying structure. Like an iceberg. Once I integrated the awareness of this people become a lot more transparent. You can see it in this forum, too. People say "I only want to express XYZ" but they don't see the layers below that actions. Gender and  pick up discussions are a good example

[Joshe]

9 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Yeah, I get you. This "you were saying XYZ" is something I also use sometimes. Bringing them back to what they SAID, paraphrasing, summarizing, instead of what I see they likely MEANT. Because often, people don't have transparency re their own line of thoughts and words. So you need to meet them where they are and - IF you have the patience - slowly lead them.

Best case is then friends, girls where you have a back and forth with each other on the same level. Like playing ping pong, but with the goal of "make it as easy as possible for the other to reach the ball".

You know the "meta language" idea from Bandler and Grinder? Basically it brings you down not what people say, but why they say it right now in this way they are saying, what's the motive, meaning, the underlying structure. Like an iceberg. Once I integrated the awareness of this people become a lot more transparent. You can see it in this forum, too. People say "I only want to express XYZ" but they don't see the layers below that actions. Gender and  pick up discussions are a good example

Yes, I found that by knowing myself, I can largely know others, because I know all the little games I've played and gotten to the bottom of them and mapped out their structures, and so they spring into mind as potential hypotheses via subconscious pattern recognition. And once they're there as hypothesis, via analysis and deduction, I can usually discern quickly what is going on with someone. But analysis and deduction are more often than not not even needed. I can read most people like a book, but only because I've read myself like a book, and over time, confirmed we're all very much alike in structure. Even if I don't know the "content", the "structure" seems to often be accurately intuited, or at least not far off. This is my main tool in social calibration. I suppose this skill naturally develops with self-reflection, and if one has spent many hours contemplating human behavior in general, it develops even more. 

Edited August 14 by Joshe

[theleelajoker]

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

Yes, I found that by knowing myself, I can largely know others, because I know all the little games I've played and gotten to the bottom of them and mapped out their structures, and so they spring into mind as potential hypotheses via subconscious pattern recognition. And once they're there as hypothesis, via analysis and deduction,

The bold part. That's the crucial part for me. My big awakening this year was how crystal-clear I could see how my own life, experiences is reflected in others. It got so crazy to a point that I had difficulties taking other humans seriously. Sometimes still have.

One small example, our exchange here. Similar experiences, similar challenges, similar perspectives.  You said you have an older sister, too? 2 years older, yes? Now take a guess how much older my sister is hahahaha  

Now this happens once, twice,...10 times and it's just like "ahhh OK, interesting". But my life soon consisted to a large degree of synchronicities, reflections, mirroring. Sometimes it was so intense, I people started saying something, and I could sense in their energy was coming next. Because I had the experience before, sometimes hours ago, sometimes days ago.
Or vice versa, I would say something and the other would react "What? Really? You experienced this as well?" Some people will think I am crazy, but recently talked about it with a friend that is relatively sensitive to reality herself. She knew immediately was I was talking about, she was relating to it. Because she has the same experience sometimes. But now it get's funny..because OF COURSE she has the same experience, because she's reflecting my experience  This transpersonal stuff is interesting but also kinda scary. It's possible to go in circles with this. That's why I always think of this picture 

 

Quote

(...). I suppose this skill naturally develops with self-reflection, and if one has spent many hours contemplating human behavior in general, it develops even more. 

I got here the same way you describe. First, self observation. Self awareness. Second, many hours a) contemplating human behavior (alone and with others) and b) interaction, interaction, interaction with others. 

Edited August 14 by theleelajoker

[Joshe]

48 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

One small example, our exchange here. Similar experiences, similar challenges, similar perspectives.  You said you have an older sister, too? 2 years older, yes? Now take a guess how much older my sister is hahahaha  

Lol, that's funny! Is yours extroverted?

One good thing about an older outgoing and extroverted sister is you inevitably wind up in her robust social circle. Without her, I would be a totally different person. Maybe even holding ideas about gender superiority. We endured a rough childhood together, which created an unbreakable bond.

Edited August 14 by Joshe

[theleelajoker]

6 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Lol, that's funny! Is yours extroverted?

Yes. 

Quote

One good thing about an older outgoing and extroverted sister is you inevitably wind up in her robust social circle. Without her, I would be a totally different person. Maybe even holding ideas about gender superiority. We endured a rough childhood together, which created an unbreakable bond.

Same.

[The Caretaker]

Small update on my dating situation:

• My city has enough anonymity and volume for daygame/online. My wing has been doing this like a crazy animal for 6 weeks or so, almost on a daily basis. Maybe he will run sun enough out of attractive women, but still, I will need a year to achieve this amount of volume, so not doing cold is mostly just an excuse.
• In my social circles, I have only 2 girls I want to take out, but one is not responsive, and the other is quite autistic and barely responds to my advances (even tho she shows very clear signs of attraction).
• Met a girl on Tinder. Almost lost her, but remembered Leo's story and another one from my wing to push forward, and got her to sex. We were supposed to have a fwb situation, but our characters were so different that after 2 nights together, she broke up with me. In a week . This one hurt more than I expected. At least I doubled my lay count 
• My and my wing dedicated an entire day to making better photos, and now I've started getting likes and matches on Tinder. Nothing crazy, but still enough to keep the mill going.
• So now I have empirical proof that dating can work for me, but all of this led to my emotional state from the post below.

 

And here is the update with my mental state -