What is state according to Leo Gura?

[Osaid]

8 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

it clearly is a relative, biological function, just like a computer needs some sort of hardware to exist

That would be overlooking existence. In order for there to be needs and hardware, there has to be a concession that they exist (and thus are perceived). Otherwise, you're going off of what is never experienced (Santa Claus).

Consider that, at the moment of the Big Bang, the Big Bang did not create the universe. Rather, the universe was the Big Bang. Only when the universe stops being the Big Bang do you say "the Big Bang created the universe" because now you can make a causal chain of events out of it. It is not absolutely true that the Big Bang created the universe, it is only true via a relative chain of events created by the separative faculty of your mind. You can only make that claim via memory, or by referring to what doesn't exist anymore, or non-existence, or "other-than-perception", aka "Santa Claus".

[AION]

I'm reading book of not knowing by Ralston and that book is hitting so hard. Life is such a big mystery. People don't even understand women and they think they can understand the fabric of reality lol.

[Norbert Somogyi]

58 minutes ago, AION said:

I'm reading book of not knowing by Ralston and that book is hitting so hard. Life is such a big mystery. People don't even understand women and they think they can understand the fabric of reality lol.

Yeah, it's kinda hilarious (no offense to serious seekers). Feels similar to mining bedrock in Minecraft, you can randomly glitch through it and experience the void (which is but another perspective), but you still don't understand a large part of the game (like redstone mechanisms or villager trade as a comparison).

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, AION said:

I'm reading book of not knowing by Ralston and that book is hitting so hard. Life is such a big mystery. People don't even understand women and they think they can understand the fabric of reality lol.

You can understand the fabric of reality totally if you open yourself to the unlimited that you really are. Then you see what everything is. Im almost sure that Ralston never ve done that. He has a barrier, something subtle, like his heart is closed, he has a compound of narcissism that act as a barrier. He can't overcome it because he doesn't perceive it. He needs to believe that he already reached the totality, he's not hundred percent honest, and that narcissism acts like a shell than imprison him. He's not open to the absolute, to the unfathomable that is. In his speech you can perceive lack of depth. 

[Breakingthewall]

37 minutes ago, Norbert Somogyi said:

Yeah, it's kinda hilarious (no offense to serious seekers). Feels similar to mining bedrock in Minecraft, you can randomly glitch through it and experience the void (which is but another perspective), but you still don't understand a large part of the game (like redstone mechanisms or villager trade as a comparison).

Everything is extremely simple. The infinity is due its infinitude, because the absence of limits make it inevitable. Not being would be a limitation. Always the reality is. Then reality reflects in itself in infinite perspectives , because not doing it would be limited, it's impossible, then everything is already expanded to infinity, and inside everything seems in expansion, but real expansion is impossible because it's already infinite, then everything is cyclical, cycles inside cycles to infinity. Everything that exists contain the infinite potential, there is no center or there are infinite centers, that's the same. Then anything that appears is just anything that appears, a manifestation of the absolute bottomless due the infinite relative reflection in itself. 

Just logic, find a incoherent point. 

[AION]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

You can understand the fabric of reality totally if you open yourself to the unlimited that you really are. Then you see what everything is. Im almost sure that Ralston never ve done that. He has a barrier, something subtle, like his heart is closed, he has a compound of narcissism that act as a barrier. He can't overcome it because he doesn't perceive it. He needs to believe that he already reached the totality, he's not hundred percent honest, and that narcissism acts like a shell than imprison him. He's not open to the absolute, to the unfathomable that is. In his speech you can perceive lack of depth. 

He is still smarter than anybody on this forum. But that is his Achilles heel too. 
 

And what I find funny is that he numbers his chapters like the Bible. Like chapter 2, paragraph 3, sentence 5.  And then he references stuff from his book like he is some prophet. In a certain sense he is. His teachings are the best in terms of intellectualism.

 

The thing is to get to total understanding of reality one must first be able to navigate out of his own head. I’m such a guy. That is why Ralston is perfect for me. 

Edited May 9 by AION

[Breakingthewall]

19 minutes ago, AION said:

He is still smarter than anybody on this forum. But that is his Achilles heel too

He could be smarter, but if he's limited, everything that he says starts from a limited basis

Anyway maybe I'm wrong, just a perception listening him a while

 

Edited May 9 by Breakingthewall

[AION]

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

He could be smarter, but if he's limited, everything that he says starts from a limited basis

Anyway maybe I'm wrong, just a perception listening him a while

 

His books are just something else. I think not knowing goes very deep and he needs to go deeper. Totally jail breaking the mind is very difficult and smarter people have a harder time because the firewall is much stronger. 

[Xonas Pitfall]

It’s an ambiguous thing, but you can definitely feel it - especially when you're shifting from one state to another. Like waking up from unconsciousness into consciousness, going from being very alert to drowsy and tired, or from being hyper-aware to feeling dizzy or disoriented. If you’ve ever done psychedelics, you’ve probably felt the shift from your regular baseline into that trance-like, hyper-aware state they can induce. Or think about being totally in the zone while working out, then suddenly feeling more detached or less present.

These are all examples of different "states of consciousness." It’s your ability to take in and process everything happening in your current field of awareness and to focus on it. The less of that field you can "take in" - and the less depth with which you can perceive it - the less conscious you are. The more you're able to take in and engage with, the more conscious, “awake,” and alert you feel.

Dead → Unconscious → Deep Sleep → Groggy → Semi-Aware → Lightly Awake → Tired → Alert → Focused → Engaged → Aroused → Flow State → Peak Awareness → Transcendental Awareness → Enlightened / Fully Awake / "Alive" / "Real" / "Truthful" / "Radiant"

Edited May 9 by Xonas Pitfall

[Norbert Somogyi]

58 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Everything is extremely simple. The infinity is due its infinitude, because the absence of limits make it inevitable. Not being would be a limitation. Always the reality is. Then reality reflects in itself in infinite perspectives , because not doing it would be limited, it's impossible, then everything is already expanded to infinity, and inside everything seems in expansion, but real expansion is impossible because it's already infinite, then everything is cyclical, cycles inside cycles to infinity. Everything that exists contain the infinite potential, there is no center or there are infinite centers, that's the same. Then anything that appears is just anything that appears, a manifestation of the absolute bottomless due the infinite relative reflection in itself. 

Just logic, find a incoherent point. 

I don't doubt the logic, it intellectually makes sense. However, it doesn't contradict my point. Awakening doesn't give someone omniscience let alone omnipotence, you still need to learn how to navigate the world as a human. It sounds even more difficult since you may need to re-learn a lot of stuff. Stuff like self-actualization, empathy, love, understanding women, meaning of your life etc. Petty human shit does not go away when you awaken.

In my head someone who is awakened would not waste their energies in petty human debates. They wouldn't have spiritual egos that seek validation. They would not waste their time trying to enforce their views on anyone on such a niche platform. Instead they either bask in the magnificence of what is, or trying to cultivate the same Absolute love they experience in anyone they meet. Other times just spend their time being human, with everything it entails. My keypoint here is authenticity, if nothing else. If awakening is not that - then no thanks, I guess 

Edited May 9 by Norbert Somogyi

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, Norbert Somogyi said:

In my head someone who is awakened would not waste their energies in petty human debates. They wouldn't have spiritual egos that seek validation. They would not waste their time trying to enforce their views on anyone on such a niche platform. Instead they either bask in the magnificence of what is, or trying to cultivate the same Absolute love they experience in anyone they meet.

That's just your opinion, being open to the nature of reality is something gradual and one thing is sure, any preconceived idea is a barrier

[Xonas Pitfall]

10 minutes ago, Norbert Somogyi said:

then everything is already expanded to infinity, and inside everything seems in expansion, but real expansion is impossible because it's already infinite, then everything is cyclical, cycles inside cycles to infinity. Everything that exists contain the infinite potential, there is no center or there are infinite centers, that's the same. Then anything that appears is just anything that appears, a manifestation of the absolute bottomless due the infinite relative reflection in itself. 

Do you mind expanding on this? I understand the logic, but I'd love to hear you explain it more clearly - it sounds interesting!

This kind of description actually made me think of a cell and how it infinitely multiplies into smaller versions of itself. I love it - one big cell branching into infinite smaller cells, each one a reflection of the whole, like endless layers of the same infinity.

Edited May 9 by Xonas Pitfall

[Breakingthewall]

30 minutes ago, AION said:

His books are just something else. I think not knowing goes very deep and he needs to go deeper. Totally jail breaking the mind is very difficult and smarter people have a harder time because the firewall is much stronger. 

The problem is that if he is not really open to the nature of infinity he's basically wrong. He could be smart, deep, anything, but is wrong. It's an essential qualitative point. If you start from a limited basis, everything that you perceive is limited, then what you express about the nature of reality is wrong. 

[Xonas Pitfall]

16 minutes ago, Norbert Somogyi said:

In my head someone who is awakened would not waste their energies in petty human debates. They wouldn't have spiritual egos that seek validation. They would not waste their time trying to enforce their views on anyone on such a niche platform. Instead they either bask in the magnificence of what is, or trying to cultivate the same Absolute love they experience in anyone they meet. Other times just spend their time being human, with everything it entails. My keypoint here is authenticity, if nothing else. If awakening is not that - then no thanks, I guess 

Not fully! Once you are "awakened", you can take any path you want. You might start appreciating the world more deeply, continue doing what you were already doing but with greater awareness, or use that understanding to help others and improve humanity. It's not petty - if everything is ultimately meaningless, then you're free to do whatever brings you the most joy, passion, and fulfillment.

And even if you reach a state of enlightenment, that doesn't free you from financial or practical human needs. A lot of people, wanting to stay close to the truth they’ve realized, choose to build a life around it. Not because they’re deluding themselves, but because it genuinely feels like the best path - one that aligns both with their understanding and their basic human needs.

TLDR: Wanting to debate and improve human thought can be a completely valid and authentic desire.

Edited May 9 by Xonas Pitfall

[Breakingthewall]

27 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

Do you mind expanding on this? I understand the logic, but I'd love to hear you explain it more clearly - it sounds interesting!

When we adopt an unlimited perspective, a deeper understanding of reality begins to reveal itself. This is not a speculative claim, but an inevitable logical consequence: if there are no limits, then the potential is total . The real absolute is not a thing, a form, or a specific consciousness, but the total absence of limits, which implies bottomless potential. This infinity is that which allows anything to appear: reality is not a relation; it is where relation occurs, but same time is the essence of the relation. 

This means that existence is not a thing, but a relation, understanding existence as manifestation of reality. Everything that appears, from a subatomic particle to a galaxy, is not a closed substance, but a coherent configuration within a field of relationships. Existence is flow, the internal movement of infinity, the expression of potentialities that, due to their coherence, manifest as forms. Reality, by contrast, is absolute potential: what the Tao calls the “unborn,” that which never appears and yet allows everything.

From this perspective, manifestation is not the totality of the real. In fact, what does not appear, the “never”, is as real as what does. The unmanifested is not a lack, but the source of the manifested. What exists is only an expression, a viewpoint, a temporary and relational configuration within the infinite.

 In states of true stillness, not the absence of movement, but of progression, time loses its directionality; thoughts continue, but their meaning dissolves. The mind keeps producing forms, but they are no longer meanings: they are transparent events. This perspective is unmoving not because it does not change, but because it goes nowhere. In that stillness, it becomes evident that all “movement” is merely a shift in perspective within something already complete. Infinity does not expand, it already is.

 what is recognized in that state is something radical: that the essence of everything is an immutable openness, formless, limitless, yet containing all. It is not a substance, not an identity. It is that which allows there to be something instead of nothing, because “nothing” would be a limit, and thus impossible.

Existence, then, becomes inevitable. Reality lives because nothing limits it. The apparent movement of manifestation is not a march toward a destination, but a play of perspectives within what is already realized. Every apparent reality completes a cycle, not because there is a purpose, but because real movement in an unlimited framework is not linear: it is a reflection of its origin, a constant return. Infinity does not create, it simply is, and in being, allows all creation.

Edited May 9 by Breakingthewall

[Norbert Somogyi]

4 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

Not fully! Once you are "awakened", you can take any path you want. You might start appreciating the world more deeply, continue doing what you were already doing but with greater awareness, or use that understanding to help others and improve humanity. It's not petty - if everything is ultimately meaningless, then you're free to do whatever brings you the most joy, passion, and fulfillment.

And even if you reach a state of enlightenment, that doesn't free you from financial or practical human needs. A lot of people, wanting to stay close to the truth they’ve realized, choose to build a life around it. Not because they’re deluding themselves, but because it genuinely feels like the best path - one that aligns both with their understanding and their basic human needs.

TLDR: Wanting to debate and improve human thought can be a completely valid and authentic desire.

Thank you! This resonates much more with me. 

I agree with your TL:DR, but that's not the feeling I am getting when I am reading this sub-forum. To me it feels like endless parroting for the majority (not everything, I've read some incredibly deep posts here), but I could be wrong of course.:) 

[Xonas Pitfall]

16 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

When we adopt an unlimited perspective, a deeper understanding of reality begins to reveal itself. This is not a speculative claim, but an inevitable logical consequence: if there are no limits, then everything possible is contained within it. The real absolute is not a thing, a form, or a specific consciousness, but the total absence of limits, which implies bottomless potential. This infinity is not found in what appears, but in that which allows anything to appear: reality is not a relation; it is where relation occurs, but same time is the essence of the relation. 

This means that existence is not a thing, but a relation, understanding existence as manifestation of reality. Everything that appears, from a subatomic particle to a galaxy, is not a closed substance, but a coherent configuration within a field of relationships. Existence is flow, the internal movement of infinity, the expression of potentialities that, due to their coherence, manifest as forms. Reality, by contrast, is absolute potential: what the Tao calls the “unborn,” that which never appears and yet allows everything.

From this perspective, manifestation is not the totality of the real. In fact, what does not appear, the “never”, is as real as what does. The unmanifested is not a lack, but the source of the manifested. What exists is only an expression, a viewpoint, a temporary and relational configuration within the infinite.

 In states of true stillness, not the absence of movement, but of progression, time loses its directionality; thoughts continue, but their meaning dissolves. The mind keeps producing forms, but they are no longer meanings: they are transparent events. This perspective is unmoving not because it does not change, but because it goes nowhere. In that stillness, it becomes evident that all “movement” is merely a shift in perspective within something already complete. Infinity does not expand, it already is.

 what is recognized in that state is something radical: that the essence of everything is an immutable openness, formless, limitless, yet containing all. It is not a substance, not an identity. It is that which allows there to be something instead of nothing, because “nothing” would be a limit, and thus impossible.

Existence, then, becomes inevitable. Reality lives because nothing limits it. The apparent movement of manifestation is not a march toward a destination, but a play of perspectives within what is already realized. Every apparent reality completes a cycle, not because there is a purpose, but because real movement in an unlimited framework is not linear: it is a reflection of its origin, a constant return. Infinity does not create, it simply is, and in being, allows all creation.

Thank you! I came to the same conclusions myself, but I hadn’t heard much about the "cyclical nature" aspect before, so I really appreciated that addition.  

I also like to think of it as the “ultimate” or “fundamental pattern.” For example, when we call something “funny,” there’s always an element of surprise or a punchline - a basic structure that repeats, even though the content varies infinitely. Similarly, when we call something “useful,” there’s often a structure: a problem appears -> something resolves it -> and thus it’s deemed useful. The "pattern" or its "properties" are constant, but the ways it shows up are endless.

In the same way, God/Truth/Reality/Consciousness seems to follow a fundamental cycle: “I am infinite -> but am I finite? I must be -> so I create the finite -> the finite "feels" separate from me -> it strives for union -> it is whole -> I become infinite again.” That cycle endlessly expresses itself in infinite variations of separation and reunion. From within time, we perceive it as progress or evolution, but from the perspective of the infinite, it simply always is.

Edited May 9 by Xonas Pitfall

[Xonas Pitfall]

6 minutes ago, Norbert Somogyi said:

Thank you! This resonates much more with me. 

I agree with your TL:DR, but that's not the feeling I am getting when I am reading this sub-forum. To me it feels like endless parroting for the majority (not everything, I've read some incredibly deep posts here), but I could be wrong of course.:) 

Definitely - I’m not on the forum that often, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a lot of meaningless debating going on, often just to defend someone’s ego or fixed beliefs rather than to genuinely help or bring clarity to others. I was mainly pointing it out so you don’t fall into the common trap of thinking, “Oh, if someone’s enlightened, they couldn’t possibly care about any ‘earthly’ matters!” That’s just not true.

People can absolutely choose to engage in whatever feels authentic or brings them the most joy. Spirituality and enlightenment aren’t about detaching from life, but rather about freeing yourself from the ego-driven “copium” that blocks your real self-expression.

From what you’ve said, it sounds like you already value authenticity and aspire to live that way - so yes, I think we’re totally on the same page. Yay! 

[Norbert Somogyi]

3 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

Definitely - I’m not on the forum that often, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a lot of meaningless debating going on, often just to defend someone’s ego or fixed beliefs rather than to genuinely help or bring clarity to others. I was mainly pointing it out so you don’t fall into the common trap of thinking, “Oh, if someone’s enlightened, they couldn’t possibly care about any ‘earthly’ matters!” That’s just not true.

People can absolutely choose to engage in whatever feels authentic or brings them the most joy. Spirituality and enlightenment aren’t about detaching from life, but rather about freeing yourself from the ego-driven “copium” that blocks your real self-expression.

From what you’ve said, it sounds like you already value authenticity and aspire to live that way - so yes, I think we’re totally on the same page. Yay! 

Thank you for the clear and valuable response!

I believe there is a small misunderstanding, as I didn't mean to imply that I envision enlightenment as detachment from worldy affairs. I view some traditional paths leaning in that direction, and I view such detachment with caution. It reeks with selfishness and escapism to me, but perhaps I am not aware of methods that benefit the collective without being involved with worldy affairs. I also consider the possibility that the misunderstanding stems from a completely different mindset, given how those paths of detachment were born in a completely different time period and place.

I also don't resonate with the arrogance awakening is often presented with here. I just don't see how frequently interacting in this (sub)forum and explaining what is time and time again could be a path anyone awake would choose over others. How this path could be the most ideal when it comes to caring about and sharing truth. It is possible I just have yet to comprehend the utter careless awakening could produce, meaning everything inherently having the same value. It just stings, perhaps this is why I am not involving myself with it at the moment.

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

but I hadn’t heard much about the "cyclical nature"

16 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

 

 

In an unlimited frame real movement is impossible, the point a is equal to point b, then any movement is relative to another movement or perspective. Any perspective must be change because the absence of change is just nothing. Any "something" is movement, and any movement is relative change relative to an opposite. Any movement must return sooner or later to its origin; it is not real in the absolute sense; it is relative to another perspective. It's like the law of entropy; eventually, everything disintegrates, because infinite progression is just impossible, but as the system is open, new movement arises always.

18 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

the same way, God/Truth/Reality/Consciousness seems to follow a fundamental cycle: “I am infinite -> but am I finite? I must be -> so I create the finite -> the finite "feels" separate from me -> it strives for union -> it is whole -> I become infinite again.” That cycle endlessly expresses itself in infinite variations of separation and reunion. From within time, we perceive it as progress or evolution, but from the perspective of the infinite, it simply always is.

Yes exactly, it seems like this is an inevitable progression. If you have this realization with psychedelics or meditation, it may seem extremely horrible, because it's like being trapped in an infinite prison, but that's because some ego remains. If there is no ego, freedom is absolute, precisely because there are no limits.