The idolatry of nerds ("pencilnecks") has infected the bodybuilding and fitness space

[Carl-Richard]

31 minutes ago, something_else said:

It kind of makes sense that the slower you move the more muscle growth you’ll encourage. The more time your muscles spend under tension the more they tear and the more they grow.

Then yoga must build hella muscles.

 

31 minutes ago, something_else said:

The only hill I’ve ever seen Jeff Nippard die on say in terms of how your reps should be timed is that the eccentric should be at least 1 second. Realistically if your eccentric is shorter than 1 second you’re probably lifting with bad form or trying to lift weights that are too heavy for you

And the groin should be 13.2 cm above the waist when benching. Ok.

Slow training has its benefits, but it has its downsides.

Look at the benefits of sprint training on a systemic level. Imagine if somebody said "nah, you can get that by jogging at 140-160 bpm for 40 minutes". That's the same kind of dynamic we're dealing with.

And I'm of course stretching this way beyond pure "hypertrophy", but even there, the so-called "science" is not at all conclusive either way. The type of studies Mike references are CRAP. Sorry, it is just the truth. Look at the methodology of how they make the study subjects train during the so-called "high quality" studies. It's ridiculous. It's things like training only one arm with one technique and training the other arm with the other technique and then comparing, or having some scientist breathe down your neck while doing your sets. Where is the ecological validity? Where is the knowledge that context matters, certainly for performance in high energy environments/situations? Do you think any of this flies for somebody trying to win the Mr. Olympia? No, so why do we use it as the blueprint for "optimal training for hypertrophy"? B-S.

Edited Wednesday at 10:14 PM by Carl-Richard

[Vali2003]

@Carl-Richard You misunderstand the type of lifting Dr.Mike proposes (I can’t speak directly Jeff Nippard as I didn’t watch a lot of his videos).

He doesn’t say that you should go extremely slow on the eccentric. Just slow enough that you actually control the weight, rather than let it fall down. Obviously, this is different if you do powerlifting.
The thing that he preaches the most in my experience is emphasizing the deep stretch of the muscle and maybe pausing there for a moment. Doing this has made my training so much more effective it’s incredible. If you understand the principle of stretching your muscle to its limits, the effectiveness of weight training takes off. At least it was like this for me. When I did this (I’m currently not weightlifting), I had to do less total sets per workout with less weight and got much more muscle stimulation. The reason most people don’t train like this is not because it’s boring, it’s because it’s actually harder and more painful to do. You lean into the growth-inducing pain this way.

Also, you’re wrong in that it goes against what your body tells you to do, if what your body tells you to do is lift the weight super fast and forcefully. You can still do that on the concentric? And I always did it, because it’s fun and feels nice, like you described. Dr.Mike doesn’t at all speak out against it too. You should look at some of his old leg-training videos with guests on his YT. I’ll link a good one. The intensity is brutal there so I don’t think your description or perception is accurate here. 

I agree with you that you should listen to your body. Some people follow the advice blindly, try to lift “scientifically” and end up wasting their gym time in the name of science. It’s obviously fine if you don’t enjoy lifting like that, but if you want to maximize hypertrophy, that’s the way to go speaking from my experience. 

https://youtu.be/7Nhb7-zaws8

I don’t see this lacking the  “the spirit of god moving through them” workout energy.

 

[Carl-Richard]

Greg Doucette is also critical of "science-based" lifting.

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Vali2003 said:

@Carl-Richard You misunderstand the type of lifting Dr.Mike proposes (I can’t speak directly Jeff Nippard as I didn’t watch a lot of his videos).

He doesn’t say that you should go extremely slow on the eccentric. Just slow enough that you actually control the weight, rather than let it fall down. Obviously, this is different if you do powerlifting.
The thing that he preaches the most in my experience is emphasizing the deep stretch of the muscle and maybe pausing there for a moment. Doing this has made my training so much more effective it’s incredible. If you understand the principle of stretching your muscle to its limits, the effectiveness of weight training takes off. At least it was like this for me. When I did this (I’m currently not weightlifting), I had to do less total sets per workout with less weight and got much more muscle stimulation.

I've trained like that for a year, by the book as Mike Israetel recommends, and now I'm back to how I've usually trained since I started but I've also added deep stretch microreps on failure for some exercises, and by looking at me, you probably wouldn't notice much difference (expect a bigger chest, which it used to be when I trained more intense, before I got shoulder and sternum issues from injuries unrelated to lifting).

 

3 hours ago, Vali2003 said:

The reason most people don’t train like this is not because it’s boring, it’s because it’s actually harder and more painful to do. You lean into the growth-inducing pain this way.

It's not "harder", but it's less fun, and for me, it doesn't give the effects I desire from training (which involve the mental effects). High intensity, letting go of restrants, is what gives the mental effects.
 

3 hours ago, Vali2003 said:

Also, you’re wrong in that it goes against what your body tells you to do, if what your body tells you to do is lift the weight super fast and forcefully. You can still do that on the concentric?

You just contradicted yourself in one sentence. The eccentric is half of the movement. Punctuating every rep with restraint is not what your body wants to do; it's what your mind wants to do, and it makes you energetically constipated. If you go full set no restraint, it's like a constant surge of energy. It's like one big rep.
 

3 hours ago, Vali2003 said:

And I always did it, because it’s fun and feels nice, like you described. Dr.Mike doesn’t at all speak out against it too. You should look at some of his old leg-training videos with guests on his YT. I’ll link a good one. The intensity is brutal there so I don’t think your description or perception is accurate here. 

It's intense in the same way that cutting yourself with a blade is intense. I'm after intensity which explodes out of me, not some kind of neurotic self-inflicted torture technique. It's the difference between being the one who punches someone and being punched. It's about self-determination, doing what you feel deepest inside, not submitting to some prescribed notion that you got from the outside (which is identical to shame, or again, receiving violence from an outside source).
 

3 hours ago, Vali2003 said:

I agree with you that you should listen to your body. Some people follow the advice blindly, try to lift “scientifically” and end up wasting their gym time in the name of science. It’s obviously fine if you don’t enjoy lifting like that, but if you want to maximize hypertrophy, that’s the way to go speaking from my experience. 

"Listen to your body" while cutting yourself with a blade. "Speaking from experience" while it's science-based. Interesting contrasts.

 

3 hours ago, Vali2003 said:

https://youtu.be/7Nhb7-zaws8

I don’t see this lacking the  “the spirit of god moving through them” workout energy.

Compare the vibe you get from that video and this video:
 

Tell me if you see the "blade cutting" vs "face punching" distinction.

Edited 22 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Vali2003]

5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

You just contradicted yourself in one sentence. The eccentric is half of the movement. Punctuating every rep with restraint is not what your body wants to do; it's what your mind wants to do, and it makes you energetically constipated. If you go full set no restraint, it's like a constant surge of energy. It's like one big rep.

What's fast and forceful about letting the barbell fall on your chest on the eccentric of a benchpress? That was how I meant it. I understood what you describe as "the spirit of good moving through me" as what happens while I try to push the weight away from me with my last bit of power. So for me there was no contradiction. But I see the "face punching" distinction, I think. You mean, controling the eccentric control in this way pierces through the constant "face punching" vibe you want during a work out, right?

Quote

It's intense in the same way that cutting yourself with a blade is intense. I'm after intensity which explodes out of me, not some kind of neurotic self-inflicted torture technique. It's the difference between being the one who punches someone and being punched. It's about self-determination, doing what you feel deepest inside, not submitting to some prescribed notion that you got from the outside (which is identical to shame, or again, receiving violence from an outside source).

I can't quote the other parts of your answer normally for some reason... I don't think I understand the distinction you make of it being the difference between punching someone vs. being punched. Being punched is a very kind of emasculating feeling. It feels like your boundaries have gotten seriously violated. I cannot line this feeling up in any way -- it's obvious you mean it more in terms of the direction, but even that way I can't understand it -- with controlling the eccentric and punctuating the deep stretch of an exercise. It's just peaks and valleys for me while lifting. It's like a spring loading, before it releases (or tries to in the case of lifting) the energy and springs up. The eccentric creates tension, because I know it will be difficult to move the weight, and the concentric is the release of that tension. This doesn't feel like a "neurotic self-inflicted torture technique" to me. Actually, I find the contrast of the eccentric (tension) and the concentric (release) turns the concentric into an even bigger flow state experience than it'd otherwise be.

Quote

"Listen to your body" while cutting yourself with a blade. "Speaking from experience" while it's science-based. Interesting contrasts.

You're strawmanning my argument now, cmon. I am speaking from experience... Working out by punctuating the deep stretch was so much more effective than how I worked out before. I'd get sore after every single workout, even after working out consistently for several months. All with less joint pains, even though I did a larger range of motion than before on pretty much every exercise. 

Quote

It's not "harder", but it's less fun, and for me, it doesn't give the effects I desire from training (which involve the mental effects). High intensity, letting go of restrants, is what gives the mental effects.

It is "harder," but the rest of your points are fair. This is a more holistic picture of training. If concentrating on things like this negates the mental effects, then I think it's smart not to focus too much on controlling the eccentric or the deep stretch.

One more thing. I believe you have an exaggerated picture in your mind of what it means to "control the eccentric." And I think this is the thing that bothers you the most about what Dr. Mike preaches. But "control" doesn't mean that you must have a 5 second descent. It just means that you should control the weight on the way down. Control just means not letting gravity do the task for you. Sam Sulek, in the video you show, also controls the weight. And this can be done much quicker than most people would think. So I believe it doesn't even contradict the "face punching" vibe you aim for all that much. The deep stretch is something different. And I think it can be added into the face punching vibe, without negating anything else, while increasing hypertrophy, no? 

[Carl-Richard]

10 hours ago, Vali2003 said:

What's fast and forceful about letting the barbell fall on your chest on the eccentric of a benchpress? That was how I meant it. I understood what you describe as "the spirit of good moving through me" as what happens while I try to push the weight away from me with my last bit of power. So for me there was no contradiction. But I see the "face punching" distinction, I think. You mean, controling the eccentric control in this way pierces through the constant "face punching" vibe you want during a work out, right?

Try sprinting and compare sprinting for 3 seconds and then stopping for 3 seconds, and repeating that for 20 seconds, vs sprinting full throttle for 20 seconds. See which one you prefer. See which one makes you feel more energized and alive.

When you put too many brakes on a movement, when you let the mind dictate too much how to execute the movement, rather than letting the body execute it within what feels best, you limit the body. And it makes you weaker (your body). Controlling the movement means inhibiting it. This is how neuroscience works. Control is the interplay between inhibition and release. The more you control something, the more you inhibit it. The less you control something, the more you release. Flow and optimal performance is at the balance between inhibition and release, and your body has a natural balance for its flow. You can only know that by listening to it, not by reading it in a book (although you can use it as a pointer).

 

10 hours ago, Vali2003 said:

I can't quote the other parts of your answer normally for some reason... I don't think I understand the distinction you make of it being the difference between punching someone vs. being punched. Being punched is a very kind of emasculating feeling. It feels like your boundaries have gotten seriously violated. I cannot line this feeling up in any way -- it's obvious you mean it more in terms of the direction, but even that way I can't understand it -- with controlling the eccentric and punctuating the deep stretch of an exercise. It's just peaks and valleys for me while lifting. It's like a spring loading, before it releases (or tries to in the case of lifting) the energy and springs up. The eccentric creates tension, because I know it will be difficult to move the weight, and the concentric is the release of that tension. This doesn't feel like a "neurotic self-inflicted torture technique" to me. Actually, I find the contrast of the eccentric (tension) and the concentric (release) turns the concentric into an even bigger flow state experience than it'd otherwise be.

"This is how I should move my body because somebody else told me". "I have to limit my body's expression of energy so that I align with this outside source". "I have to feel immense pain, it has to be humiliating and hard, rather than feeling energizing and empowering". This is the distinction between self-determination vs emprisonment, coercion and constraint, between internal motivation vs external motivation, between flow, joy and personal expression vs shame, guilt and insecurity.

Of course, you can come to the point where you mentally identify with the constrained movements and the philosophy behind it so that you feel a kind of internal motivation to do it on a mental plane, and you might become very good at it and condition your body to respond well to it and even tap into a kind of flow state, but on a raw physical level, your body might still have another idea of what it wants (and if you were to change the technique, you might experience a great release).

You can get used to walking with bad posture or holding on to some tension or energy in your body, but when you get to release it (e.g. by becoming aware of it in meditation or through consciousness-expanding chemicals), you will feel like you've been freed and that everything becomes lighter.

 

10 hours ago, Vali2003 said:

You're strawmanning my argument now, cmon. I am speaking from experience... Working out by punctuating the deep stretch was so much more effective than how I worked out before. I'd get sore after every single workout, even after working out consistently for several months. All with less joint pains, even though I did a larger range of motion than before on pretty much every exercise.

I just said it was an interesting contrast.

 

10 hours ago, Vali2003 said:

One more thing. I believe you have an exaggerated picture in your mind of what it means to "control the eccentric." And I think this is the thing that bothers you the most about what Dr. Mike preaches. But "control" doesn't mean that you must have a 5 second descent. It just means that you should control the weight on the way down. Control just means not letting gravity do the task for you. Sam Sulek, in the video you show, also controls the weight. And this can be done much quicker than most people would think. So I believe it doesn't even contradict the "face punching" vibe you aim for all that much. The deep stretch is something different. And I think it can be added into the face punching vibe, without negating anything else, while increasing hypertrophy, no? 

You can watch more Mike Israetel videos, particularly the cable bicep curls or lying bicep curls that he makes his guests humiliate themselves with, and then contrast that with Eric Bugenhagen blasting some incline dumbell presses. It's not hard to see which one is more inhibitory and which one is more "release".

Edited 6 hours ago by Carl-Richard