Best way to test for heavy metals?

[- Adam -]

Hi everyone,

After a good amount of reading I'm ready to go down this avenue and find out with numbers if I'm toxic or not.

Inciting incident was failing out of tradeschool for pastry due to memory problems, being slow, having poor ability to hold tasks in memory and organize them.

other problems include having a hard time staying connected to a conversation, dark circles under the eyes, rashes on hands wont go away..

Before transitioning to something else I'm taking the time to investigate heavy metals possibily being a cause for my cognitive issues.

 

There's clearly a divide between hair test people and urine test people. I'm curious about your opinions

I was confused at first because I learned about the urine test first with Leo, but then find out Andrew cutler, who made this subject his life purpose, advocated for hair tests. ultimately I agree with the opinion that no amount of heavy metals is ok to have in the body, so a provoked test is not to be disregarded.

 

If someone here vouches for hair tests, can you tell me why?

Do you know of pre/post provocation test packages? (sending two samples)

Should I test on or off round if I only get one? (I'm streching myself thin financially)

Which test do you specifically recommend? Any affordable ones in Canada?

Test results may differ from DMSA to DMPS, right?

I've even seen fecal matter tests, No data on that?

 

 

Edited March 27 by - Adam -

[mmKay]

Hair tests are safe,  inaccurate and "cheap". Provoked urine tests are potentially dangerous depending on how toxic you are and how you tolerate chelators. They are very accurate to tell you how much of what youre excreting

The costs are up pretty fast. We're talking hundreds on just testing 

 

The best in my opinion is just to do a chelation trial. Any response to chelators, either good or bad I'd an indicator of toxicity and therefore you will benefit from following the protocol. And even more so given the symptoms youve listed 

Heavy metals are not the only issue. There are many many more health factors

 

 

Edited April 13 by mmKay

[- Adam -]

Thank you for your response @mmKay, I have found a lot of info and motivation to figure it all out in your Chelation Journal

I ultimately decided to do a hair test since it's the cheapest way to get data, and feedback on the ACC facebook group is that I almost certainly have mercury poisoning.

I just wanted some hint outside of my intuition to greenlight chelation as a worthy investment for me.

 

I'm attaching my hair test result in case you have comments, which would be welcome

[Leo Gura]

Hair test is not trustworthy.

Provocation is.

Edited Friday at 05:41 PM by Leo Gura

[- Adam -]

Welp, given I have them now, I'm just gonna take a starting dose of ALA & DMPS for a round and feel it out.

[Michael569]

@- Adam - what does the percentile indicate? What does the material on the next page say?

Is this percentile based on a population data or some internal comparison model?

[- Adam -]

@Michael569 I don't know what the reference interval is based on, but I score low on essential elements compared to it.

The next pages are a description/disclaimer for the test, followed by paragraphs called "Calcium low" "Magnesium low" "Potassium low" and so on.

No talk about reference range.

What I gathered is that Mercury and other such toxic elements interfere with the binding of essential minerals in the body, which shows up as low essential elements when testing.

Edited Saturday at 12:37 AM by - Adam -

[Leo Gura]

If you use an untrustworthy test to measure your health you will not only get useless results but even harmful results. So watch out.

[mmKay]

OP has limited finantial resources and common HM toxicity symptoms

It's nice to have accurrate metrics but the purpose of whatever testing is to anwser the questions of " do I chelate? and for how long? " ( Yes knowing how much of what is leaving your body has its value, but it's not essential )


Also a urine test requieres taking a fairly large dose of DMSA ( around 2000MG, make sure to move into a full 3 day round after taking the initial dose for the test).  It is suposed to be relatively safe but I just wouldnt do it off the bat...  the last thing you want to do is accidentally f* yourself up and be helpless.

Just do a few rounds of chelation trials with conservative doses ( see picture ) and see how you react first. You can allways go higher. 
 

Any reaction to chelators, either positive or negative suggest you will benefit from chelation.

In the case you've had amalgams then you can be sure you will befit from chelation . ( If you've had amalgams you need to be extra careful and make extra research. ACC group is great for this )

Also the ammount of HM in your body should ideally be 0, so almost certainly you will benefit from chelation .

Once you know you tolerate chelation well and can afford urine tests and want actual numbers then go for it.

 

Hair mineral tests are not very accurate  but they are not taken at face value. The mineral ratios  are "interpreted" - the HM bars are very inaccurate ( you look for signs of  "deranged mineral tansport" which you aparently have ) which suggests mercury toxicity,  anwsering again the question that you will likely benefit from chelation. 

 

For how long ? It's a process. Andy says when you can chelate at 3 mg/kg doses of ALA without any side effects (on or off round, and there are no further improvements to your health condition), chelate for another 6 months and you are done.








If you want to try higher doses of DMSA  go for it, but i'd recommend start lower.., Aparently I dont tolerate well more than 25 MG of DMSA every 3 hours for example.

You could argue that there is  such thing as " too small doses"  and that chelation is maybe actually easier with higher doses, but I have yet to trial that.

Let me know if you have any other questions

Edited Saturday at 06:06 AM by mmKay

[- Adam -]

I definitely would prefer to know exactly what I have but yeah the costs really get up there especially with shipping outside of the US.

I was also scared of taking a mega dose so quickly into my confused newbie phase. Note that I since found a safer adaptation of the provoked urine test with spread out, lower doses in Amalgam Illness, Diagnosis and Treatment - Andrew Hall Cutler p.178

That's the thing : I'm in a weird spot in life where I started an immigration project to Canada 8 month ago with a student permit, struggled so much to keep up with my program I had to drop out and re-evaluate my mental health, but on a budget because I might have to move out again soon.

 

Because I related to many of the symptoms, I made the investment up-front and bought chelators and supplements in bulk powder form, so as to keep costs to a minimum. (except DMSA and DMPS which are only available as pill bottles on livingsupplements.com) Dealing with powders is a puzzle but it has benefits.

 

Thank you so much for your help regarding starting protocol and doses

 

19 hours ago, mmKay said:

Any reaction to chelators, either positive or negative suggest you will benefit from chelation.

Do you supplement on and off round ? I think they suggest starting chelation like a month after getting on the Core 4, I imagine in part so you can register the effects of it seperatly, but I'm reluctant to the idea of taking pills all the time. They get very complicated with supplementation over at the ACC group.

Of course I'll be glad to find remedies for specific side effects once I have them but I would love to keep a simple process:

doing alternating rounds (with a progressive build up in dosage) of DMSA + ALA & DMPS + ALA

"start with one chelator"  -  Which one?

 

Here if you could suggest starting doses for each it would be great. here's what I noted in my common place book:

4 days on - 4 days off

DMSA : 30mg / Kg / day on a 3 hour reuptake schedule, so divided by 8 (you take 25mg per dose?)

OR DMPS : 200 - 500mg / day on a 6 hour reuptake schedule, so divided by 4

ALA : 25mg to 250mg every 3 hours

 

[mmKay]

@- Adam - 

All of this is anwsered in the " start here" section of the ACC group. I can't explain every single thing to you personally as it time consuming. I can still answer things here and there.

 

Careful with bulk form ALA. If you accidentally breathe in the fumes it can redistribute heavy metals around your body . There is one dude that committed suicide because of how bad it f*d him up, it's the first video in my journal. Be sure to wear a high quality mask. 

Chelators expire relatively quickly so keep that in mind when buying a lot of them. Look up FB group for storing options. I lost hundreds not knowing this.

There is a video on how to DIY your own capsules on the FB group, it's around the final 2 pages of my journal. You need a precise micro scale and make sure each pill has the same amount of ALA not to accidentally fluctuate chelator blood levels which would make your chelation experience worse.

It's little hassle but it cuts down the cost of chelation by X3 if not more. And it's not that complicated.

You absolutely supplement the same amount on and off round. This is important, otherwise you may crash during the recovery phase.

Doses are at the beginning of my journal. They recommend you take the core 4 for 2 weeks before starting chelation. Introduce supplements one by one and see how you react to them.

Adrenal cortex EXTRACT is very effective at supporting adrenals for me, and they recommend it as a 5th core supplement, so consider stacking up on that.

Other than that, look into thyroid support, liver support and adrenal support. It's all on the FB group or my journal.

"Taking pills all the time" is fine as long as you don't use shady low quality no brand supplements. If say you can comfortably take two dozen supplements daily  or more.

High doses of vit C work very well on me. I take up to 8g per day. Find your own doses ( I take sodium ascorbate as it's not acidic)

For doses and what chelators, see picture above. I've done 25 MG dmsa every 3 hours for 4 days. Now I'm testing same dose of just ALA.

larger doses or longer rounds than that gave me severe fatigue ( adrenal crash, for up to a week ) and yellow feces ( sign of insufficient liver support, poor bile flow.)

They recommend 10 rounds just DMSA before introducing ALA. I haven't looked into dmps a lot personally.

 

For suplements just start with the minimum that works. 

 

What I use:

Liver support ( artichoke extract, milk thistle extract), doses and links to what I purchased on my journal (not affiliated)

Adrenal support: Thorne Adrenal cortex extract. Works wonders. 

" Adrenal cocktail" : pinch of cream of tartar ( it's potassium, very care not overdoing it ) , Himalayan salt and ascorbic acid diluted in water to replenish electrolytes

Iodine for thyroid support 

 

Optional , that I picked, mentioned by Andy:

Vit A, high quality molecularly distilled omega 3, L- thyrosine, selenomethionine ( no more than one pill split in two , 12 hours apart, i believe its 200mcg per pill. It works good  off round to deal with redistributiom symptoms as it blocks mercury from being reabsorbed)

Edited Sunday at 08:27 AM by mmKay

[- Adam -]

I wont nag you further, thank you for all that.

The long list of supplements is intimidating but I will take it step by step. Will probably add a few of these to my starting roaster off the bat because I know lots of people preach thyroid, liver and adrenal support.

I still have a lot to learn and will continue reading the ACC group as well as your journal which is a great introductory ressource!

[mmKay]

You're welcome. Feel free to reach out for specific questions once you've first searched ACC group

 

 

That's not even a lot of supplements. Look at this

 

 

And now look at this!!!

 

 

[- Adam -]

Bruh x_x

That "live forever" guy is slowly gonna turn into Voldemort

[Michael569]

On 27/04/2024 at 1:36 AM, - Adam - said:

I don't know what the reference interval is based on, but I score low on essential elements compared to it.

I hope this won't sound patronising or anything like that and forgive me if it does but don't you think it would be a good idea to understand the test results before you stuff your body with a cocktail of pills? Why don't you contact the company and ask them to interpret the results. The way I read this is that all of your results are between 10th to 30th percentile. If this is based on average population data, it translates to "your levels of HM are below general average which is good" - tell me if I'm reading this ioncorrectly. 

I mean, from reading this I see that you have already decided to diagnose yourself with HM overload even before having the test so the results were kinda meaningless. 

Again, sorry if this is too patronising but I think sometimes an ounce of extra caution will go a long way. Your symptoms, whatever they are could be caused by your diet, lifestyle, insufficient sleep schedule, imbalanced body composition, poorly managed stress etc. Don't assume the worst by default. 

If it is indeed HM overload then the protocol described above is probably a good one to embark on. 

Just 2c , ignore if it doesn't resonate. 

[mmKay]

On 30/4/2024 at 11:57 AM, Michael569 said:

Why don't you contact the company and ask them to interpret the results.

These companies dont have specialized knowledge on how to interpret hair tests specifically for mercury toxicity or heavy metal toxicity. They do provide their analysys, which isn't important for the purpose of deciding if to chelate. You just want them to provide the raw data.

Being in the "high percentile" or "low percentile" refers to the amount of a specific mineral or metal present in your hair compared to a "healthy " reference population. If your result is in a high percentile, it means that the concentration of a particular substance in your hair is higher than what is observed in most people in the reference group. a low percentile indicates that the concentration is lower than what is common among the reference group.

You post your hair test results on the ACC FB group where the admins ( people who understand Andy's " counting rules", as explained in his 300 page book of in-depth biochemistry about how mercury affects mineral transport ) tell you if you meet these counting rules and your likelyhood of mercury toxicity.

Mercury is the only heavy metal that severely interferes with mineral transport, whats called " mineral derangement " 

I have fed Andy's books to chatGPT to anwser your questions in more detail :

The counting rules developed by Andrew Hall Cutler for interpreting hair mineral analysis are designed to detect unusual patterns in the distribution of essential elements that may indicate heavy metal toxicity, particularly from mercury. 

The key elements typically analyzed in hair mineral analysis under Andrew Hall Cutler’s protocol, important for assessing overall mineral balance and potential toxicity:

Calcium (Ca), Magnesium (Mg), Sodium (Na), Potassium (K), Copper (Cu), Zinc (Zn), Selenium (Se), Manganese (Mn), Iron (Fe), Chromium (Cr), Phosphorus (P)

These elements are chosen because they play crucial roles in metabolic processes, and their imbalances can indicate physiological disturbances potentially caused by heavy metal exposures.

The counting rules :

Rule 1: More than Four High Elements

If four or more of the essential minerals are found in the highest 10% of the population reference range, it indicates potential heavy metal toxicity affecting the body's ability to regulate these minerals.

Rule 2: More than Four Low Elements

If four or more of the essential minerals are in the lowest 10% of the reference range, this suggests significant impairment in the body's capacity to absorb or retain these minerals, possibly due to heavy metal interference.

Rule 3: Combination of High and Low Elements

If a combination of four or more essential minerals appears in the extreme high or low ends of their reference ranges, this pattern signifies severe dysregulation in mineral homeostasis, indicative of possible heavy metal toxicity.

Rule 4: Fewer than Two Mid-Range Elements

This rule considers whether fewer than two essential elements fall within the middle ranges of the reference spectrum. The presence of most elements in the extremes (high or low) without a balance in the mid-range further emphasizes abnormal mineral transport or metabolism, likely influenced by toxic metal burdens.

The maximum number of rules any hair test can meet is three. When it does, it is called a screaming mercury test, which means that the likelihood of mercury toxicity is about 99.9%

 

Edited 5 hours ago by mmKay

[mmKay]

I sent your results to Chatgpt to analyze them with the info from the books. May not be entirely accurrate but on the FB group they just tell you how many counting rules you meet and your likelyhood of mercury toxicity, given the ammount of people posting there. (80k people )

 

To provide a thorough analysis using Andrew Hall Cutler’s counting rules from the hair mineral analysis provided, we will accurately assess the essential mineral levels, ensuring precise application of the counting rules for potential heavy metal toxicity. Here is the detailed breakdown of the mineral results and their application to Cutler’s rules.

### Essential Mineral Levels:
**1. Calcium (Ca)**: 154 mg% (Reference Interval: 200-1250, **16th percentile**)
**2. Magnesium (Mg)**: 17 mg% (Reference Interval: 25-130, **2.5th percentile**)
**3. Sodium (Na)**: 13 mg% (Reference Interval: 20-180, **2.5th percentile**)
**4. Potassium (K)**: 5 mg% (Reference Interval: 11-80, **2.5th percentile**)
**5. Copper (Cu)**: 3.3 mg% (Reference Interval: 1.3-30, **84th percentile**)
**6. Zinc (Zn)**: 190 mg% (Reference Interval: 130-200, **84th percentile**)
**7. Manganese (Mn)**: 0.028 mg% (Reference Interval: 0.08-0.75, **2.5th percentile**)
**8. Chromium (Cr)**: 0.42 mg% (Reference Interval: 0.18-0.60, **50th percentile**)
**9. Iron (Fe)**: 4.8 mg% (Reference Interval: 7.0-90.0, **2.5th percentile**)

### Cutler’s Counting Rules Applied:
**Rule 1: More than Four High Elements**
- High elements are those in the 95th percentile and above. Here, no elements meet this criterion. Copper (Cu) and Zinc (Zn) appear in high percentiles, both at the 84th percentile, which are below the threshold needed to consider them abnormally high

**Rule 2: More than Four Low Elements**
- Low elements are defined as those in the 5th percentile or below. In this case:
  - **Magnesium, Sodium, Potassium, Manganese, Iron** are in the **2.5th percentile**.
  - Five elements meet this criterion, suggesting significant impairment in the body's capacity to retain these minerals, possibly due to heavy metal interference.

**Rule 3: Combination of High and Low Elements**
- Looking for a combination of four or more essential elements appearing at the extreme high or low ends of their reference ranges. Here:
  - **Low:** Magnesium, Sodium, Potassium, Manganese, Iron
  - **High:** Copper, Zinc ( high but not extremely high )
  - We have five elements ( potentially seven ) in the extreme ranges, indicating severe dysregulation in mineral homeostasis. This rule is met and supports the possibility of heavy metal toxicity.

**Rule 4: Fewer than Two Mid-Range Elements**
- Mid-range elements are those that fall between the 16th and 84th percentiles, excluding extremes. Here:
  - **Mid-Range:** Calcium, Chromium
  - Only two elements fall into the mid-range, supporting the indication that most elements are skewed toward extremes, likely influenced by toxic metal burdens.

### Conclusion:
The application of Andrew Hall Cutler’s counting rules to your hair mineral analysis suggests a significant pattern of mineral dysregulation, with a predominance of essential minerals falling into the extremely low range. Five essential minerals are significantly low, and there's also the presence of two significantly high minerals, which fulfills Rule 3 and supports the potential diagnosis of heavy metal toxicity, particularly mercury interference.

Given these findings, it would be advisable to consult with a healthcare professional experienced in the treatment of heavy metal toxicity. This should ideally be someone familiar with Cutler’s protocol if you're considering a chelation therapy. 

Edited yesterday at 11:31 AM by mmKay

[Michael569]

13 minutes ago, mmKay said:

eing in the "high percentile" or "low percentile" refers to the amount of a specific mineral or metal present in your hair compared to a "healthy " reference population. If your result is in a high percentile, it means that the concentration of a particular substance in your hair is higher than what is observed in most people in the reference group. a low percentile indicates that the concentration is lower than what is common among the reference group.

Yes, but OP's levels are all, on average spread below the median (50%) that's all I'm saying. He is embarking on the protocol based on inappropriate test with poor quality of evidence and while being in "normal" brackets. 

I don't dispute the AC process itself, full admition I have no experience with this protocol, I know you have become an expert so I wouldn't argue on the protocol per se. More like, does the OP need it? 

Also don't forget about think-tank groupthink type of mindset of these groups. E.g. XYZ symptoms - HM toxicity. 

To a man with a hammer every problem is a nail. 

I am not a member of the group but know someone who has been, a close friend I'd say. He gathered that despite the advice is strongly correlated with AC's book, overall there is a trend in the group to neglect holistic health approach - tell me if you this is incorrect. 

There are many factors that influence your ability to absorb and remove heavy metals, your diet and lifestyle being significant factors. I hope these things are being considered when people blast their liver with a cocktail of supplements that are 100 times higher than recom. safe dosage, otherwise we are engaging in green pharmacy 

That's all I have to say on this , thanks for your response! 

Edited yesterday at 11:20 AM by Michael569

[mmKay]

@Michael569 ignore the heavy metal results, only look at the minerals. You're looking for mineral derangement that mercury specifically causes.

Hair testing is just a vague rule of thumb anyways, to get started somewhere.  Go do your DMSA provoked urine tests if you want actual  numbers once you know you how you tolerate chelators. I just find it a little ruthless to do it before trialing the chelators.

Ofc there are countess of different health factors, like diseases, fitness, genetics, nutrition, environmental toxins, mold , polution, medicine side effects ... etc. OP suspected HM toxicity due to his symptoms and wanted a breakdown of urine test vs hair test, and I feel we have done it

The medical field and health overall is an extremely complicated subject and often it's difficult or impossible to be absolutely accurate about the diagnosis and all you have left is to trial and error your best guess, which is what often doctors do.

Edited yesterday at 11:34 AM by mmKay

[Michael569]

14 minutes ago, mmKay said:

You're looking for mineral derangement that mercury specifically causes.

This is interesting, first time I hear about mineral derangements caused by heavy metals. Interesting persepctive, I'll have to explore that further. Either way, an interesting conversation, few takeaways I didn't know about. 

What does the AC group say about biopsy as a possible assessment of HM. Tissue biopsy for example? 

Edited yesterday at 11:35 AM by Michael569