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True. In the opinion of yours truly, that [bold markings in your post by yours truly] is especially the danger with psychedelic only/mainly paths. To say it in the words of Ken Wilber: To fully cross over to Final Enlightenment/fully waking up, ones Identity must by NOTHING/Nothingness. Fully empty. Fully Impersonal Consciousness. The "Abyss". Separate self fully seen in all subtle elements (I-feeling, I-thouhgts, and very subtle lenses of pereception)/transcended/cut off. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche And that can either be had with working with cessations (or the "more" concentrative path. "During" Cessations where the separate self is not existent, by definition), and seeing the separate self reassemble when getting out of that state, and the then resulting ripening and transcending of the remaining separate self. Or by doing something like the dissolving/transcending of the separate self directly with for example Mahamudra/Dzogchen, which knows cessations, but doesn't give them Ultimate meaning or even preference compared to staying in the Nondual (Simultaneous Mind) States/Awakenings (during daily life when the world appears in the visual field), letting the separate self slowly dissolve, until the Big Bang of Crossing Over or Waking Up: Resulting in the Final Nondual Enlightenment as described by Kalu above, or by Daniel Brown Pointing out the Great Way, Basis Enlightenment: The paths up the mountain are a bit different, and the interpretation of coming down the mountain also has different "coulorings". But the deep structure of the path, and the outcome, is of the same essence. Interesting thing is: Daniel Ingram, Frank Yang and Ken Wilber changed all in the later stages of their practice either to or to include elements of Mahamudra/Dzogchen into their previous practice (Theravada for the first two gentlemen, Zen for Wilber. Both are mainly concentrative meditation heavy paths). Which in the opinion of yours truly is a very interesting fact. Selling Water by the River PS: When having read the letter, throw it in the fire (Bassui)

On a relative level, that concept is wrong, and harmful. I can here that song playing.... Because: If you would have the opposite concept/believe, you would practice. And if done long enough, wake up. If you would be at that level permanently, fully established on the Absolute side of the street, where saying that "you" have no choice (Impersonal Infinite Reality doing its thing, no "you" anywhere to be found), one can let concepts arise along the lines "no free will". Which then wouldn't matter, since "you" are alredy "there". Before, there is still a "you" appearing in your mindstream on the relative side of the street, thinking how to decide and so on.... A very vivid illusion, very well alive and captivating... And thinking that there is no free normally ends up with.... doing what one wants, which is normally not a practice that requires certain effort. Essence of that link: " Practically speaking: Investing time in this question while not knowing what one really is is pointless. It is absolutely pointless. It is a question based on a wrong assumption: That the separate self exists as more than just an illusion. The rope mistaken for a snake. Better investing time in finding out what one really is." That means practice. So, maybe that is helpful... Bon Voyage! Selling Water by the River

Yes, fully agree. And the Nothingness is always there (gold), even when the necklage (form) shows up. Made out of it. i just wanted to say that the perspective that the causal can also be considered a state when one wants to describe the temporaray experience of it is also valid. On the concentrative paths, one normally experiences the Nothingness normally first as state, before one can "hold" the awareness of the Nothingness as the essence also of form/visual field in daily life (Nondual Realization). That is why early Buddhism put Nirvana on a pedestal. One can get "hung upon" Emptiness/Nothingness as state. Awareness "OF" Emptiness. Then one has to empty out emptiness. Realizing broadly as movement (Buddhism) fully that Samsara is Nirvana, and emphasizing the Nondual nature of both, and formulating all of that into doctrine (Nagarjuna, Madyamaka) came later. Having Nirodha as state is easier (and can comes before) fully holding the Nondual Realization that essence of the necklace(form) is gold in daily life. But also that happens (realization with Nondual without Cessations before). Mahamudra and Dzogchen for example quite efficiently directly train the Nondual Awakening, and not giving Nirvana/Causal/Cessation states the importance it had in early Buddhism (and partially still has in Theravada). But if having the choice only between either/or (and not integrating both staetments into proper context to make the partial truths of each more encompassing) 1. calling Niroda/Nothingness/Cessation just an temporary imagined state or 2. calling Nothingness/Niroda the Absolute, "the" Infinite Always Already Here Reality, ones True Fully Empty (Nothingness) Impersonal Being of Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind, yours truly also would always chose the 2. perspective. Because its fully empty&impersonal Infinite Consciousness/ Suchness/ Nothingness. And that is what helps making it stable in daily life. Calling it just 1. (and downplaying 2.) can cause a lot of trouble. But if one goes down the Absolute Solipsism and "its all imagined" path probably tends to or even has to that move. But both perspectives contain (partial) truths. As is to be expected, because "at" the Absolute/Infinite level all dualities/language/descriptions/system just collapse. One throws them over board at the right time, not before. Until then, they are very useful. Selling Water by the River

Yes to all of it . And as you write, the Zen Master will slap one anyway. Only exceptions: He apprehends the same enlightened impersonal(!) mindstream of empty impersonal Infinite Consciousness that he knows "himself" to be in his interior/perspective. And apprehend/see that he can in Real Life perfectly fine... Takes one to know one. Then, one could say something completely incorrect on the relative level: The Absolute is Raspberry (Ralston once did). And one would still pass... But if in doubt, the smack & go and meditate/transcend/integrate/grow-up more is probably always helpful, even when already having a nice piece of real-estate on the Absolute Side of the Street.... Zen doesn't like basking in relative concepts. Probably the Zen Master would leave yours truly barely alive.... But hey, words and relative concepts are all we got here in the forum, and the voice of the "fully Absolute Side of the Street" is already doing very fine... Yours truly also dreams about fully retiring over there, and just sprouting out Koans like "frog pond plop" all day long and smile.... , but will stay & do the conceptual thing on the relative side of the street until time being. Selling Water by the River

Well, ......... yes! When resting IN that Nothingness/Infinite Impersonal Consciousness/Infinite Reality, the bliss/love starts to flow. So that bliss/love lives in the house of ones True Being. It is the fragrence of love/bliss that one searches in all(!) experiences, after the separate self contraction/ego has strangled this flow of love/bliss. It is the bliss/love of a home that one never really forgot, and actually never really left. Only apparently... Technically, the bliss/love belongs to the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness, the necklace side of the gold. But since it flows as soon as the gold begins to reveal itself, it is just divine in its force (see one of my last post for Awe). It kills "separate you" softly or not so softly... And when the Nondual Realization opens up..... the Divine opens its flood-gates and delivers any love/bliss one ever sought and had, and infinitely more... It is like finding a million dollar in your pocket, and keep pulling out the money in disbelief, always thinking that has to be fake as everything that came before. I think that metaphor is from Adyashanti. Afterwards, one never mourns the loss of the separate self-illusion. One has lost nothing more than an Illusion, and gained the whole Kosmos. Infinite Freedom, since which/what could constrain ones freedom? Infinite Love, since one knows its source, and there is no other, never could be. One without a second. And if it is in ones nature, go fishing, grow beautiful flowers in your garden, raise a family, celebrate life.... And if one is inclined to do so, go develop new technologies, explore new fields, leave your mark, go chasing an Alien or two - if one is true Pioneer, discover Alien Dimensions and the wonderfully beautiful creation and mainting mechanism of this Universe/Dimension/Buddhafield and others... But this time from the fullness of ones True Being, with overflowing bliss and love, and not for getting the love/bliss from the gig/experience, but for expressing the love/bliss that already always lives in ones True Home, right here and right now... And maybe don't value the n+1 Alien anything higher than the bliss/love of ones essence... You know, "others" might get inspired to go chasing their own tail too.... Selling Water by the River

Nirodha Samapatti/Cessation/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep - Causal States: Absolute Reality or passing states. Both! Please allow me some musings on that topic... The Nothingness/Infinite Reality in which the show happens right here right now is the same Nothingness that is also the Reality of Nirodha Samapatti. And all other (causal) states, like cessation and so on. Same goes for example of Infinity-"Whiteouts" of 5-MeO experiences and the like. IT/Nothingness is right here, Infinite Reality itself, It can never not be there. The essence of any manifestation. It is timeless, always here. Eternal. Immortal. Or better: Timeless, like in "can't go anywhere else, has to be right here always". Even in causal Nothingness-states, like Cessation/Nirodha Samapatti/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep. Ones True Eternal Impersonal(!) Being, Infinite Consciousness, the Universal Mind itself. Nirodha Samapatti is a special configuration/modulation IT(Infinite Consciousness/Reality) can have, although that modulation of it REVEALS much of its True Essence, Nothingness. IT has also the Infinite Potential to appear as the whole show, the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness. And that manifested side is truly nondual with the unmanifested side of Infinite consciousness, One without a second. By logic, "what something is, its essence" has theoretically to be always the same (Which is why everything perceivable doesn't really exist, because it is temporary, changing. Using verbs instead of nouns would be much more approriate). That is why Nothingness (pointing to the "always there" Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness) is for example a much better pointer than for example anything pointing towards the "Manifested Side" of Infinite Consciousness, like the eternal flow of shapes, or even Gods/Buddhfields. As long as anything with form, anything specific (and that means also ANYTHING changing, which is also only temporary) is identified with the Absolute: Good luck getting rid of that... There is only one Thing/Non-Thing that is eternal/timeless, Reality itself. Anything else is changing.... The flow of the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness. Of course the changing flow of the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness is in a nondual way the same as the Unmanifested Nothingness Side. But the ESSENCE of the manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness is Nothingness, not the other way round. The Manifested Side is NOT the essence of the Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness. Because the manifested side can go (Nirodha Samapatti), so it is not the essence (not what something is, see above). The necklace and gold. Gold would be the unmanifested stay, it stays. The necklace disappeares in the furnace, leaving only god. One is the essence of the other, not the other way round. Nirodha Samapatti is the gold as molten in the furnace, without shape/properties. The necklace, or any jewellery, is the show/manifested side of Infinite Consciousness/gold. A very nice book on the Awakenings/Enlightenments into the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness vs. the Unmanifested Side (and impersonal/causal/Nothingness) of Infinite Consciousness: Infinite Consciousness: An In-depth Exploration of the Shift in Consciousness Constitutive of Enlightenment in relation to True Nature, the Soul, the Body-Mind, the Heart and the Me, Michaël Szyper being able to differentiate between Awakenings/Enlightenments into the Manifested or Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness would also put the whole Awakening n+1 show in a better perspective. A perspective that would actually bring real peace.... But of course would take a lot of juice out of the show, so lets see if Maya prefers the juicy show for yet a bit longer... If in doubt, always bet on Maya! You never get disappointed... Either she looses (which is nice), or the bet is won. A win-win situation uhhhh, sorry. And as always, Bon Voyage! Summarizing all of that: Nirodha Samapatti is a state, and is Nothingness, but is still a conditioned state. Temporary. But very useful and making the Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness quite clear... But since it is an expression of the Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness, it is closer and a better pointer, a state making Absolute Reality/Nothingness clearer than for example saying the Infinite Flow of Infinite Reality (or anything with form, anything that can be described, God (not the Godhead), Buddhafield, whatever), which is a pointer to the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness. That framework explains why concerning Causal Nothingness-states, like Cessation/Nirodha Samapatti/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep. (1) some say it IS the Absolute (2) and some say it is only a state, passing, temporary. As most of the time, nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time, or even completely wrong with a statement (although some go looong ways to performe quite good in both categories, but that is another topic). Same here: Both statements (1) and (2) are true, but partial, and need to be put into context. Then it can be integrated. That is why I am such a fan of Integral Thinking/Integral Cognition. It solves contradictions.... And if one has partial truths and contradictions in ones Mental Operating System, one is a walking contradiction on two legs, the prime victim of Maya and suffering of the self-contraction (also a contradiction walking on two feet). Although some seem to enjoy it quite a bit, at least for a time... Maybe that is a bit helpful... Selling Water by the River

Yes. If you work carefully with Solipsism, and what I have read from you so far sounds very responsible. Danger is: When there is no other, there can still be you. Only you. One. Not One without a second. One, but not fully nondual/impersonal. Breakingthewall, from what I read you understand this very well, the danger and potential of that concept. Please allow me some general musings on the topic, not specifically adressed to you. The idea that the ego/separate self is God is the worst idea one can have. We agree on that. Blows up that which one has to kill/transcend. The opposite of Neti Neti. Shooting oneself in the knee and then starting the Marathon, and saying: I have done a good preparation for the run. At least in my perspective, there is zero problem for integrating the different views concerning Solipsism, and its partial truths: Solipsism on the level of the separate self: Wrong. The separate self IS NOT GOD or Reality. Ones True Being (Nothingness) is Infinite Reality, not the separate-self-cloud covering exactly that deep impersonal immortal always here True Identity. Solipsism on the level of the Absolute/Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind: right. But totally useless once one is there, because it is just another fake concept floating in ones most obvious True Being. One snips it off like a fly. And before being there, it harms one also, because in any way it blows up ones ego, even if very subtle. And even if its just one more concept floating in oneself. I never had the need to think in Solipsistic terms while letting Nonduality ripen. Never. It would have only hurt me on the path, probably big time. How to get rid of "other", the loving style: And if one starts really feeling and intuiting that ones own being and consciousness is looking out from the eyes from another human (or any being): You would never ever start with ideas of Solipsism. Never. Instead, that beginning recognition is the highest level of empathy and love. But at that moment, there is no "you". Just impersonal Consciousness, in you, and the "other". It doesn't even make sense to say there is no other, because that implies that you are there (as concept and subtle separate self identity, not as Reality), because there really is no other. But also no you. Not one, but One without a second. Nondual, and not just Union of one with the Totality. So one can't say there is only me. There is only THAT. And nothing more can be said about that. And it is not one! It is not two! It is the one without a second. Nondual. Not one. And THAT is love, THAT is impersonal being, THAT is the essence of all of Reality. And THAT is also Nothingness. But anyway: If one thinks about it while on the way of getting to the Absolute, the concept of Solipsism is not useful. And when "one" is there, it is another crappy and redundant concept floating through oneself that also doesn't make sense. Which means nothing else then: The concept is not useful at any point in time on the path. It is a half-true half-false concept, making it completely false. Like every half-truth. If one wants to get home fast, better forget about it! Or use it with extreme care. I personally would rather recommend dissolving each and every concept, let real nonduality (an awakened state) ripen in an nonceonceptual empty mindstream, than playing Russian Roulette with such a concept. Ones separate self is not even dead when the shot goes off, but even more alive and bigger than ever.... Selling Water by the River

Dear RedLine, valid questions, but answering them in detail would cause another waaay to long rambling from my side. The answers to your questions are in my previous posts. Please feel invited to check them out, and if you don't find something useful for your questions, feel free to send me a PM. Short answer is: Both Vedanta and Buddhist meditation system know and use Nondual states. The trick is how to get there. Latest when getting nondual states (and probably already before when you really start to get the emptiness nature of every thought arising, and can start to dissolve your own suffering-self-contraction-arisings), you will be hellbent to continue the path. Also, the paths starts showing itself to itself then. It goes "downhill" from there, not uphill. Because you have seen the benefits of the path there (bliss starts flowing). One could say that Vedanta and Theravada tend quite strongly towards concentrative methods, same as the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali for example and Zen. But not exclusively. See Daniel Browns dissertation for example. The Mahamudra system has got some real unique techniques of combining concentrative and insight elements to learn to be able to ride along the mental talk of the mindstream in a lucid/mindful way. That way, you can use daily life very efficient to get the necessary momentum for for example nondual states and getting to impersonal Awakened Awareness. I can only highly recommend Daniel Browns Pointing Out the Great Way on that topic. And by the way, one can't say Buddhist practice style, there many systems in Buddhism. Theravada is very different from for example Tibetan Mahamudra. My personal opinion is that the Mahamudra-Sytem (for example in the book of Brown) is orders of magnitude more efficient than most other systems I know. Selling Water by the River

Yes. Don't know Angelo Dulio (but Ingram and Yangs descriptions). Full Enlightenment has the same deep structure always. Only one Nothingness/Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind. Without a second. But the way & style being talked about it later varies from perspective to perspective. And to be more precise: The ego (as technical term) or character continues doing its thing. The separate-self-arisings/elements gets understood/seen in real time (and in all its aspect) as illusions moving in oneself, and are transcended and normally cut off (Trekchö) as Illusion. Unnecessary. Awakaned Awareness takes over, and lives ones life much more efficient than the old biased separate-self ever could. Waaay more pleasant. "One" just gets out of the way. Like a lense of perception, normally with some kind of location/center, with I-feelings and I-thoughts. That drops. What remains is an Understanding/Realization of that which can never not be there, Reality itself. That is Nothingness/Infinite Consciousness. The essence of all appearance, including the visual field, is that. That Nothingness is infinite, since any boundary to anything else would be form, an imagined arising. and while there are Infinite Perspectives in Indras Net, non-dimensionally "hovering" or being manifested/imagined in Nothingness (out of which you normally forget all but "your" perspective (and call that your life), the Awareness of all of these perspectives can ever only be that Infinite Nothingness, which is also the essence/Suchness of every appearance. Deep Structures of the process towards Enlightenment. To get there, you need at least the following Awakenings (discrete "hard" STATES, induced by meditation, psychedelic, karma, ..., that one can not jump with just conceptual thinking/videos/whatever. That ends with one form of Solipsism or another, a cul-de-sac) the ego-mind becoming a fully transparent witness (Mahamudra. Yoga 1 & 2): Death/Transcendence of the ego/person. Outcome Transparent Witness. Not yet death/Transcendence of the Indviduality/last subtle separate selves. Nonduality with the visual field (Mahamudra, Yoga of One Taste, Stage 3). Induced and boosted by the step above. the visual field becoming boundless/infinite (further ripening of One Taste Yoga): Infinite the Awakening that Consciousness is Nothingness, nothing that can ever be pointed to, and the Awakening that each and every appearance of the visual field IS Nothingness, its essence is Nothingness (further ripening of One Taste Yoga). Generalizing this awakening/understanding to any possible manifestation. the Awakening to this boundless infinite visual field/Consciousness being also timeless, eternal, never-not-here. Deathless alway-here-Mind. the "you" becoming nothing at all, no center, no lense, no feeling, no thought. Or all of that moving through you like the wind: Mahamudra, Yoga of Nonmeditation, stage 4. The visual field remains, but without you. Impersonal. That is a ripening process of Impersonality (similiar to the ripening of Nonduality in the Yoga of One Taste), which ends suddenly with waking up, or Full Enlightenment, crossing over to the Dharmakaya or whatever lingo floats ones boat. That is Full Enlightenment. Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra. Fully Waking up to ones True Identity. The Awakenings of Yoga of One Taste, Stage 3, are already called Enlightenments, for example in Zen. That is a much more common Enlightenment than the real one, Basis Enlightenment. That is why for example Leo emphasizes in God Realization that True You/Reality/"God" (I am reluctant to use that word, not because it is technically incorrect, but because it can lead to a lot of Separate-Self-Boosting) imagines everything. That becomes fully clear with Full Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment, realizing the full identity of oneself and Reality. Infinite Nothingness manifesting/imagining the whole gig. Like in couldn't be different, nowhere and in no dimension/time/anything. Can't be. That was a longer musing than I expected. These are the Deep Structures of the process of Enlightenment. that I have found in ANY Enlightenment-Path-Description. (like in: a few hundreds of books later. You know, nutcase...). You can have that and do that with cessations and a concentrative meditation path, or Dzogchen/Mahamudra. One doesn't need cessations, as Ingram and Yang confirm. Both (and also Wilber) changed later to include Mahamudra/Dzogchen elements. That gave at least yours truly something to think about. Good book for Mahamudra: Pointing out the Great Way, Brown. Many posts of yours truly on that also... And one little warning: Without the corresponding Awakening states, one will a) not understand (or get) Nonduality or Union with the (infinite) visual field by just conceptual description (for example of the one of yours truly above). No chance. But you can recognize when that starts to happen when you know the map of the path. You can know how to induce that with practice, and how to make out of a spark a forest fire b) not understand the full Impersonal nature of ones true being (Nothingness), the death and transcendence of the separate self. That is impossible before it fully happens. But one can get at least an idea when the ripening of that happens. When it fully happens, its clear. Unmistakenably so. Waking Up. So the "game"/path is to induce these states, via for example the practices described above. And then there is a cycle of meditation state->realization/understanding->boosting more meditation state (because it got more impersonal) -> more realization/understanding n+1. "Thinking" ones way to Oneness/God/ItsallIMAGINED and itSAULGOODMAN doesn't work, only leads to Ego/Separate-Self-Solipsism. The 5 aggregate frame is from the earliest phases of Buddhism. Buddhism tended to end at (and emphasize) causal states back in the day (like Nirvana/Cessation/Nothingness as state). That mostly got replaced (transcended and in included) with superior realizations later, Nondual in Ken Wilbers language (Nagarjuna, Madhyamaka). That basically means not loosing ones Identity as Nothingness being the whole Infinite Field (and the essence of that being Nothingness, not metaphorically but literally, as direct experience) as Nothingness. A nice statement from that stage is: - We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.- Kalu Rinpoche. That is a statement one doesn't normally here from the early Buddhism phases. There is only one Nothingness, but the states can be a bit different on however the Nothingness is approached. However one defines Cessation, Nirvana, Nirvikalpha, nirodha samapatti, its all in the class of Causal State experiences of Ken Wilber. Causal in the meaning of Source, Nothingness. Nice article on nirodha samapatti https://medium.com/@rogerthis/lets-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness-fd78a38f3d28 Yours truly would recommend forgetting the concept of Mahasamadhi. Cultural Baggage. Why should that happen? So much effort for the whole imagined/manifested show, and then its game over when one understand what one is? Doesn't happen in practice, and why should it? For the first time, one can play and celebrate manifestation without the fear and lack and cycle of suffering. That is the True Nondual Realization. It is not the scarcity and quite negative perspective of escaping suffering and reaching Nirvana that early Buddhism/Hinayana had. It is the full celebration of manifestation, full with Agape, and if done in an integral way and with intelligence just a beautiful dream. See Francis Lucille for example. He calls it life is a celebration then. It is. He has a very sane perspective on all of that. And please feel invited to review my archieve of posts for more details because yours truly is God, marvels all day at his own perfection, of course has madly fallen in LOVE with himself, and nobody else is awake, you are all dreaming, and only God can describe himself in the best way of all Multiverses possible since there are no others, and everbody else is wrong because or biased and so on and so on (put in the Solipsistic Ramblings of your preference n+1), and its all imagined anyway!!! Sorry, just kidding of course. If you like that channel, just ask and you will helped by various proponents of Absolute Solipsism and other funny concepts Selling Water by the River PS: Very necessary, after all this conceptual overkill of yours truly: Bassui: After having read the letter, drop it into the fire Much more true than all the stuff written above: “frog pond plop” Basho

A nice post from Frank Yang on Bernadette Roberts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadette_Roberts ). https://www.instagram.com/p/CsJMKS6uNZf/ True No-Self is not the No-Self of no Ego, or No-Person, not even the No-Self of the Unitive States, or "being" a Nondual/Unitive Infinite (mere appearance) Field (that still contains an awareness (a separate self with individuality is having, subject) of an infinite empty nondual field ("object"), for example induced temporarily by psychedelics). True No-Self is the final death (or transcendece) of any form of the separate self, crossing over to Infinite Fully Empty Impersonal Nothingness/Consciousness, or Full Enlightenment. "There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all". - Kalu Rinpoche True No-Self can not be understood before fully waking up, before Great or Final Enlightenment, where any reamaining separate self fully dies/gets transcended, Infinite Impersonal Consciousness unseparable of its appearances arising within in. That last deep identity change is not gradual, but sudden. Unexpected. And has nothing beyond it. The dropping of the separate self can not (by definition) be imagined or understood before it finally happening, see the yellow markings above. Because who would do the imagining? A separate self (in whatever version). Which has to be gone to fully wake up. So the separate self can't do the imagining how it "would be like" to be gone. It is the "thing" doing/being the imagining. "Incapable of conceiving its own non existence", see text above. When one walks down the unitive states road to the end, boosted by Psychedelics, one can end up with forms of solipsism, and even further with an Infinity of Gods. A confusion of that with the Absolute, or Fully Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, certain separate self aspects still left untranscended. Which then kill the unitive and nondual state of this separate self/unity-state-identity/God within an Infinity of Gods/Alien/n+1 when coming out of the trip. Necessary for that confusion (some form of pre-trans confusion to use the wording of Ken Wilber) is, among other confusions, to misidentitfy True No-Self: not True No-Self (the death/transcendence of any and all separate self/Individuality arisings, resulting in fully empty IMPERSONAL Consciousness/Nothingness/Absolute) but with some lower forms of "No-Self", like No-Ego, No-Person, No-separate-body-mind (but nondual), No-Self of Unitive States up to a very subtle and empty transparent Witness (already nondual, being the nondual infinite field), but with some Individuality still left. The last dropping/transcending/-seeing as objects arising in ones True Self- of identity, center, localization, any forms of individuality-arisings, very very subtle feelings or awareness OF Emptiness, OF an infinite universe being seen, awareness OF being, awareness of anything is what finally brings this sudden crossing over to ones Real Identity. Waking up, Enlightenment, fully empty and impersonal Consciousness/Reality. And that is where there is nowhere further to go (no n+1, no new Awakenings), final peace and liberation are to be found. In ones True Identity. And that is why stopping short, and declaring that stopping short (New Awakening n+1) as higher as that crossing over to ones Real Identity (Nothingness), is a dangerous pre-trans-confusion, which doesn't lead to ones True Being and final liberation and the end of suffering, but a continued grasping and suffering for ever higher and newer "Awakenings" not into emptiness/Nothingness, but form/manifestation, and how the manifestation/imagining process is structured. And for those not even walking this (psychedelic-) path, but basking in proliferating mere (retold) concepts or stories about this path, ending in Solipsism and Infinity of Gods, it doesn't even deliver the transcendence and beauty that these unitive and infinite psychedelic states bring. But something on a spectrum ranging from suffering to madness. The spiritual path is the transcendence of the separate self, its death or letting go, once and for all. Neti Neti, until fully being everything, because one has become the real Nothing/ness. Not the blowing up of the separate-self to infinite God-like-solipsistic dimension. That would be the other direction, leading not to freedom and love, but to suffering and closing down. Directly into the cycle of merciless suffering and dissatisfaction, being caught in the prison of the claws of the separate self/ego/self-contraction. That is what makes this pre/trans-confusion (at least in the perspective of yours truly) very very dangerous. And now, for those disagreeing, the Bear-and-Empty-Mirror thing (signature link) please Selling Water by the River PS: And to end a bit "lighter": A Samsara/Lila consisting of separate selves necessarily needs continuing Illusion/Ignorance concerning ones True Identity. So for the fraction that will for sure not change its mind just because there is Water being sold at the River (posting above), and still prefers to continue with a certain solipsistic-messiah complex, yours truly would recommend considering doing it with style: Something like the very charming and apparently very attractive for the ladies - style of Russell Brand: Then, at least, its very charming . Less capital letters, less exclamation-marks, less angry criticism, blaming and calling names, but truck-loads of charm, (especially) with the opposite sex!

I don't feel that you are spamming at all. I went back and read again- and I have to say your words are some of the wisest here. You have captured the Absolute so beautifully- and since it truly cannot be captured - your words become even more beautiful. Yes, if we meet, no words will need to be said. Your destiny is to become a mystic, because your ability to describe God is truly mystifying. And yet, in your descriptions you speak of Pure Awareness - awareness minus the self. This is so true- but these words, much like Buddhism, miss the Love/Bliss. For Lovd/Bliss IS Being. It is Pure, impersonal awareness. Failure to mention Love/Bliss and Fullness is a failure to accurately describe the Transcendence or the falling away of the self. Indeed, Oneness must also not be lost here- for Solipsism points at Absolute Oneness. Non-duality. But Solipsism must fall to Being, as all things do. As the realization of Infinity and Nothingness do. Moreover, Omniscience and Being are bound together, for without Understanding nothing exists. You are Pure Understanding and Love. That is the same as Empty Awareness.

Neti-Neti (Vedantic) is a technique used to disidentfy any subject in ones mindstream. I am not this, I am not that. Making it from "being it/subject" to "seeing it/making it an object" moving within onself. Any I-thought and I-feeling can be watched as arisings/objects moving within Oneself. Differentiate, transcend, integrate. Why? Because ones Real Self is TOTALLY empty. Anything one thinks one is has to be made something moving in onself, an object. Or even better: I am not only this. Neti-Neti is the basis/core of all meditation, Buddhist and Vedantic alike. Maybe you like the check Daniel Browns Dissertation on the central meditation system of Yoga (Patanjali), Mahamudra (Tibetan Buddhism), and Theravada. They all have the same "deep structure" of the path, but take views from Emptiness (Buddhism) and Infinite Conciousness (Yoga, Vedantic, Hindu-style). These concepts colour the experiences, but Reality and the outcome of Enlightenment has the same deep structures. But better read directly Pointing Out the Great Way, the Mahamudra system is the most efficient and highest developed system of all of them, according to Daniel Brown. Yours truly can confirm its efficiency from own experience. Madhyamaka ("4 negations" above), the central tenet of Buddhist Philosophy since the Mahayana, basically says: The Absolute is truly Infinite. Or neither existent, nor nonexistent, / Nor both existent and nonexistent, nor neither. One can not describe it in any way, since it transcends and contains all limits. Any "positive" description would limit it. So one can not say it exists. Ex-isting literally means "standing out from reality"[as something specific, discernable]. But the Absolute is Infinite Reality itself, so it can't stand out from itself [as Reality] as something specific. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence from Latin existere, to come forth, be manifest, ex + sistere, to stand. One can not say it doesn't exist, because there clearly are at least perceptions perceiving themselves. There is some kind of show. One can not say its both existing and not existing at the same time. Because that doesn't make sense. And to rule out the last option: one can not say it neither exists nor doesn't exist. That also doesn't make sense. And Buddhism does this Madhyamaka-thing pretty much ever since to avoid any funny idea/concept being put on the Absolute, like Consciousness, God, Love, whatever, n+1. Sure, God is so to say the first manifestation, and love is also the essence of it all. But its too easy to project that on the Absolute, and make it not fully empty or infinite. Which then prevents its full realization. To say the essence of everything is God or Love is fully ok, because that refers already to something manifested, something, something no longer infinite. Emptiness/Shunyata wants to make sure that one doesn't identify anything positive with either ones True Self, nor the Absolute. Empty it out. Or make it fully infinite. Of course, Emptiness again can be made to something "self-existing". Like a state of void/emptiness, or cessation, or Nirvikalpha Samadhi. Then, it is said one has to empty out emptiness: The void is also just a state, something self-existing. It all appears in the Infinite. Emptiness as concept or theory has been used in Buddhism "to death", in many different, often incorrect usages. A good meaning of emptiness/Shunyata is (in the opinion of yours truly, in the meaning of "a good meaning/concept brings one closer to realization, not away from it) all is just a construct of mind (emptiness of concepts), and the passing nature of everything (of even empty/void states/cessation/Nirvikalpha) basically, that everything (apperance, state, self-thought/concept-arising, anything at all) is just an imagined arising in the Absolute. Just an apperance, a process, a verb, not a noun, a self-existing substance or thing. It all happens in True Infinite You, nothing is permanent, all changing and in flux. a verb, not a noun. every and each appearance "thing"/arising is finite, temporary, passing. Not the Infinite/Absolute. Now comes the funny part: Since the Absolute is also NOT Emptiness, the Hindus use the term Infinite Consciousness. Which is also correct, once its fully empty and impersonal. One can more easily project unncessary properties on Infinite Consciousness than on Emptiness/Shunyata. But Shunyata sounds like Nihilism, which also isn't IT. Basically IT/Absolute is Infinite Reality or Infinite Consciousness itself, with potential for sentience if something manifests (perceptions perceiving themselves, that is why it is not Nothing, and has infinite Potential), but at the same time it is not something, because if it would be something, it couldn't be everything. It would not be infinite, but finite and limited. If you are so inclined to read a long post of yours truly, Nothingness is in my humble opinion the best pointer (a term coined by Andrew Halaw): Sounds complicated and paradoxical, but after having passed certain awakening states, only these views makes sense (in that they are able to translate ones new awakening experiences in ways that make sense, or facilitate further growth/transcendence). Then, its no more paradoxical at all. So, if you are so inclined get some nondual experiences, sobre or not, get pretty empty yourself, and see for yourself what you truly really are.... Selling Water by the River

Very good. Please excuse the addition of my further musings below... Perceptions perceiving themselves. And no "You" or Consciousness or Consciousness "of" anything/anyone anywhere to be found... "You are Experience holding the body, somewhere in the field." And the next step can be to see that there is no "You" in "You" are Experience". Just experience arising in Nothingness, made out of Nothingness as its essence. Impersonal. Empty. A brooding silent Abyss of pure Nothingness/Consciousness. Infinite Silence, never to be seen as object. Yet, always here. Not No-thing, but never anything perceiveable. Yet all appearances arising in "it". Not existing, nor non-existing. Experiencing itself, as itself, being itself, infinite. One without a second. Nondual. "Time,Past and future" and "outside of IT" being just ideas/concepts arising in it. (the idea/concept of Solipsism by the way also). The only Infinite Reality (One without a second) in which any arising/concept can appear at all... "You are Experience holding the body, somewhere in the field." is already a "you" too much. But that is probably what you meant anyway, and "I" am adding redundant musings... > And you are holding all bodies too, you solipsistic asshole. ? . And your body-mind is being held in the perspectives of "others" when these perspectives are perceiving your bodymind, and in their perspective are only the illusions arisings of "their" separate-selfes (I-thoughts, I-feelings) arising. In Infinite Nothingness. All appearance being held in Indras Net of Infinite Perspectives. Nothingness perceiving its own arisings. Arisings with the same essence of Nothingness. And there can be nothing besides "this" Infinite Nothingness, Impersonal Empty Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness. Because anything "else" would appear in it, any boundary (which would be necessary for "anything" else) would appear within it. Selling Water by the River

Solipsism and Infinity of Gods is what you end with when you have understood a lot about the manifestated side of Reality/Consciousness (infinite mere appearance hovering nondual in Nothingness), which you can (more or less easily) access via psychedelics. But one oneself is not normally fully Empty/Impersonal Consciousness then. Not full Impersonal Nothingness. Of course one then has to project the remnants of the Inviduality/feelings of being OF something on reality (I am God, sovereign, all of it, all of this God/Buddhafield/Universe/Dimension). Because, as per my last post, the separate self can't fully imagine not being there anymore. If it could, it would be gone right away/enlightened/wake up. Traditional Great Masters had to "generate" this Nonduality/Unity states (infinite mere appearance hovering nondual in Nothingness) via getting empty/impersonal/transcending the separate self. Believe me, that takes a looong time of getting pretty empty/transcending the separate self arisings as an optional show within oneself. So they understand the impersonal empty aspect of Nothingness/Consciousness BEFORE they understand the manifested side (nondual, infinite, mere appearance hovering in Nothingness) of Infinite Consciousness, because these states they only get when being fully empty and impersonal themselves. Pure Consciousness/Reality, nothing specific, no separate self left. Its some kind of "build-in-quality-control" of the classical meditation paths (Neti Neti): You only get to see the Infinite/mere appearance/nondual Nothingness-aspect of the manifestations of the visual field (any kind of field) when being fully empty/Nothingness. So what should one get to see in theory (and apparently in practice also) if one ends up after "seeing" the infinite manifestation of Infinite Consciousness/God while not fully being nothing/Nothingness/God-proper? Solipsism (1) (or the separate self remnants realizing its identity with THIS universe/Buddha-Field/all of it). And that is "true" in so far that there are psychedelic experiences that very much feel like that. But a partial truth, there is more to go, higher truths... Full Enlightenment/Deep Identity Change to full empty Nothingness. and pushing even further, see Video "Infinity of Gods (2)", OTHER Gods/Buddhafields. Or Infinity of Gods. Thats the utmost peak of that cul-de-sac, because: Oh no, there are OTHERS like "oneself". And an Infinity of them. An Infinity of Gods. Problem: Very Nondual and infinite and Oneness and being Ultimate Reality/Absolute indeed.... So, a (2) continuation of another partial truth (1). Not the end of the story, but something that can happen, depending on the path up the mountain. A direct experience, that needs to be unpacked and interpreted. And the final truth is: Full Enlightenment/Deep Identity Change to full empty Nothingness. No other. One without a second. And: Nothing further. The understanding that one fooled oneself in ingenious ways (like, the whole show, a rabbit hole infinitely deep...) , and the complexity how one fools oneself, comes included with Enlightenment (by definition). Its all appearance within oneself, all illusion. What would be necessary now,at (1) or (2), would be to fully die/transcend ones separate self-arisings, becoming fully impersonal and nothing/empty, realizing ones Deep Identity with Nothingness/Absolute Reality. And then one throws out (better: transcends, or spots fast enough while it arises in oneself and just cuts it off, automated-style) each and every subtle concept/feeling of oneself and of the Absolute/Reality, for the Absolute CONTAINS them all, but is NONE of them. The Absolute/Nothingness can only be described in negative language, of what it is not. In-finite. Not finite. Not measurable, not defineable. Reality itself. But for that, one needs normally a lot of time in these empty and impersonal states (if ones name is not Ramana, one probably does). So how much 5 MeO can a human take, and how empty of any form of separate self are these states really? The tried and true technique is and ever has been meditation, or transcending/dying of each and every arising of the separate-self (transcending, or spotting fast enough while it arises in oneself and just cuts it off, automated-style), delivering as much time in these empty impersonal states, the Portals of the Absolute, see one of my last posts, as necessary. By the way, I am in no way against psychedelics. Psychedelics plus meditation. So psychedelics alone remains a dangerous path with potential for ego/separate self-inflation, instead of full ego/separate-self transcedence/death, until spiritual culture fully gets to grips with these quite new phenomena of highly efficient psychedelics like 5 MeO and so on. But the psychedelic path is here, and it won't go away. We will see its challenges, disfunctions and trainwrecks, its sweetness for the ego to hijack it for narcicissm/solipsism/hybris and ego inflation, being explored first time in scale in broad daylight here in this forum. Probably until the end of our days. But also the vast potential of this path. Let's see if the dark side or the light side of the force prevails. I don't know, let's see. Probably a mix of both. In the longterm, the light side of the force prevails as always, simply because the Kosmos wants to grow in evolution/complexity/awakening to itself, but until then if history shows anything any misuse and f***up possible will be fully expored and savored by humanity. Until it finally gets it right. So: Show must go on. And I am waiting and looking forward very much for the first ever fully empty/impersonal/fully enlightened Alienmind walking here on earth on two legs, thinking and understanding the Kosmos/Reality in non-linear ways like never seen before in simple non-psychedelic-boosted human mind-streams. The content and aspects of that post is more elaborated in my previous posts. Selling Water by the River

Razard, your writing/post above is also only concepts. You disagree with the concepts of others, using concepts yourself. Your logic (or any kind of logic) is also based on your concepts. You are doing something called Performative Contradiction all the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction But you attack only concepts you don't like, not your own. And you do that because you apparently LIKE doing that. Because it boosts your worldview (aka Ego), mainly selling the concept of Solipsism. And why do you like that concept of Solipsism? Because you can run a huge show with it. A leave it to the readers to decide what kind of show that is.... All concepts are only relative, none of them are Absolute Truth. Mine and yours! They all only arise in Absolute Truth/Reality. The quality of concepts as pointers/path is determined only by where they lead (their relative truth): To realizing the Absolute beyond concepts, or Enlightement or ones True Self, or not. Or more into the claws of the separate self-contraction and its narcicissm and grandiosity, which only leads to more suffering. And since this True Self if fully empty and impersonal, you can not pass the Gateless Gate when you are not fully empty. And Solipsism and the concepts you propagate do not empty oneself, Neti Neti. They rather tend to boost ones separate self with narcicissm and self-grandiosity. Your path of killing any concept you don't like "with its all concept" is contradictory, leading to you yourself being contradictoy. Which is just another word for suffering. All the best Selling Water by the River

What I would find really cool for this place is a communication style that is values each other is nice is respectful just how one would envision how nice, grown up and well-meaning communications would look like. expresses that the "other" is and can not be different from oneself (or Namaste). acknowledges the True Core of every sentient being, its Buddha-Nature. Impersonal Divinity itself. Or in one word: cool. "The word that I want to offer to you in your search for integrity is simply “Uncool.” “Is this cool or uncool?” - Diane Musho Hamilton Diane Musho Hamilton has written the article included below, concerning Genpo Roshi and concerning of his less than ethical behaviour running his Sangha. Of course concerning issues of sexual misconduct, a topic of orders of magnitude more serious than just communication style in an Internet Forum. But the concept “Is this cool or uncool?” can and should be used in the opinion of yours truly in spiritual circles, and pretty much everywhere else also, concerning pretty much every way of expression. Why? Clean Up, Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up. - Ken Wilber Or: “Is this cool or uncool?” Instant-Karma: Post something negative, attack someone, feel annoyed by an opinion/perspective, be sarcastic, ironic, criticize someone because ones ego/concepts have been hit in an emotionally negative way, or just communicate sloppy: Ones mindstream instantly becomes less than loving and open. At least the mindstream of yours truly does, that is why yours truly tries to avoid that. Water by the River "Diane Musho Hamilton - Simply Uncool . . . . The heated complaints elicit an outcry of responses calling for the development of standards, guidelines, sound and consistent ethical policies which can provide oversight and accountability to the teachers in the Zen world. This is so that teachers and students everywhere are held accountable to the impacts that their decisions and behavior have on the communities in which they practice. * * * * * These guidelines, written policies, and legal contracts provide the basis for durable structures that can outlast the unruly behaviors and destructive tendencies of the humans who inevitably pass through them. And who among us hasn’t contributed to some mayhem among our friends? Formulating these policies is natural, necessary, and even admirable, when you realize that we are capable of holding each other to higher standards of conduct. * * * * * In the meantime, however, while we are learning and while these policies are developed and implemented, I would like to introduce a handy word that may help guide you in your decisions until the ground rules are put on paper. The word that I want to offer to you in your search for integrity is simply “Uncool.” “Is this cool or uncool?” * * * * * Sleeping around. Students bring a tremendous amount of vulnerability to the spiritual search, it gets very confusing and harmful when the student’s spiritual aspiration and their un-clarified sexual desire is mixed with the erotic impulses of the person in power. If you are a teacher and want a relationship with a student, change the agreement, acknowledge your position, and cultivate one with some consciousness and integrity. It doesn’t even have to be long-term. But habitually sleeping around with the people who are studying with you? Uncool." PS: And while we are at it, Solipsism and the behaviour and emotional "radiation" of its aficionados: “Is this cool or uncool?”. And "do you want to become like that a few years following down that road"?

Exactly. Solipsism is another concept, like any(!) other. Including the more useful pointers, that actually lead to their referent. Like Neti Neti for example... In what arises that concept of Solipsism? That is the Koan that, if followed to its very end can solve all this confusion that the concept of Solisism brings with it. But Solipsism as a pointer, as an injunction, an actual practice, doesn't lead to the Absolute. It leads to Narcicissm if done from the level of the separate self well & alive. Just to more mental conceptual fantasies. Neti Neti and meditation does lead to the transcendence of the separate-self-illusion, finally revealing that in which all concepts arise, Absolute Reality, or Infinite Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness. Selling Water by the River

Further Quotes Stephen Wolinski, The End of the Game - Deconstructing the Portals to the Absolute., "As an Aside: When asked at many workshops, “How do you know if you are in an Identity?” I always answered, “If you feel special or different from another you are in an Identity.” And that is why Narcicissm prevents Enlightenment. Narcicissm = feeling special or grandiose. And Solipsism tends to boost Narcicissm. "hey, its all me. How awesome" but stated not from the True Empty Impersonal Infinite True Self (that doesn't state anything, because its 100% empty impersonal Nothingness, but contains all arising statements, so such a statement is pretty pointless), but from the false Illusion separate self. Selling Water by the River

Some Quotes from Stephen Wolinski, The End of the Game - Deconstructing the Portals to the Absolute. Below are some quite poetic pointers on how the last separate-self-identities or arisings (very subtle ones at that stage, which is very close before crossing over to Enlightenment) appear and get transcended. They are already very empty and quite impersonal (of personal stuff/Ego), and can and normally are already nondual, or unitive states. Wolinski calls them Portals to the Absolute, because it is in these Portals/states/last separate self identities where the "ripening" of Awakened Awareness (= technical Mahamudra term, standing for totally Empty Impersonal Nondual Boundless Timeless Consciousness) happens, which still has some layers/arisings at that ripening stage of some very subtle "Individuality" preventing full Enlightenment, or crossing over, until finally transcending even these last illusion layers, and then sudden crossing over to waking up /Enlightenment happens. One can not "push" through them with willforce, or artificial activity. Because that would generate more subtle separate-self arisings (will/trying to do/pushing something IS a separate-self arising, is artifical activity). But with something like Nonmeditation-Yoga of the Mahamudrasystem, one just rests in Pure Empty Impersonal Boundless Nondual Consciousness (or nondual unitive state Reality at that point in time), and lets these last veils evaporate. What is very helpful (at least for me) is the understanding (or a map) what these very subtle last separate self identities/veils are and how they work, because they are very hard to spot. No-Self is not automatically True No-Self, or Nothingness. And if one confuses the final Impersonal Empty No-Self of Enlightenment with some No-Self/Portal still loaded with subtle separate-self-identies, one does not cross over to Enlightenment, or finding the Real Empty Impersonal Infinite No-Self of Absolute Consciousness/Nothingness, the essence of all appearance. Ones True Deep Identity of the Universal Mind, the One without a second , Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, or: Nothingness. And now Stephen Wolinski (The formating is like this, because it is like this in the book, and increases its readability): "THE NO-SELF SELF I-DENTITY The appearance of the perceiver, aware-er, knower observer, witness no-self self, the position-less position the no-point point of view the non-being being etc. These subtle Identities often times remain unnoticed because they appear in such a pleasant form such as: Silence, a peaceful space The space between two thoughts The gap without thoughts memory emotions associations etc." and "Often times, the Appearance of a Portal which is a State requiring a Knower is a Phenomenological Appearance. Any Portal can mistakenly be confused as being the Absolute. All portals and spiritual paths are appearances and are experiences requiring an experience-er… Portals are appearances that are labels which carry with them an associational network of thoughts, memories, emotions, associations etc. Portals Appear to Appear in the Dream-Illusion. [that is, they appear in Infinite Reality as arising/appearance, temporarily. Portals/states like the appearance of the perceiver, aware-er, knower, observer, witness, no-self self,] Eventually, the appearance of Portals as well as the appearance on which the portal appears which could be called or named the No-self-self Identity, the No-Position Position, The No Point-Point of View, the Vortex appearing on the Ocean of Existence The Witness The Being(ness) All Evaporates… Prior to all appearances Prior to the Absolute… Prior to I Am THAT The Nameless Absolute…that which is prior to and without consciousness, awareness, knowingness, being-ness, form or emptiness" "Please note that the stillness etc. is a by-product of the no-self self Identity and that a no self-self Identity, aka a position-less position aka or a no-point point of view are all part of the appearance. In this way the appearance and the perceiver, knower/aware-er, witness, observer or a no-self self identity position-less position or a no-point point of view etc. is part of the appearance. In other words, they arise and subside together. Moreover the perceiver, knower/aware-er, witness, observer or no-self self identity etc. is part of and fixated and fascinated on the something-nothing or appearance disappearance game (to be discussed later). ... Realizing this leads to the appreciation you can deconstruct appearances ad nauseum and still end up continuing to deconstruct appearances. In other words there is no way out of the loop, without the evaporation of the perceiver, know-er, aware-er aka no-self-self identity etc. which is experienced as stillness, peacefulness, presence or I am etc. ... Finally, feeling like a separate self or feeling a “non-dual” self or feeling are both states. There is the dual identity and a non-dual identity. the dual identity and a non-dual identity are states and are perceiver, knower awarer dependent, and are appearances ... [appearing in Reality/Absolute] " "It is the appearance that appears to appear as a witness or a know-er or an aware-er etc. which is part of the illusion. All of the appearances of the witness, knower, aware-er, perceive-er observer etc.) are appearances, temporary illusory-mirage like appearances which contains the illusion of stability, solid(ness) and permanency. This illusion functions to stabilize the illusory dream of existence, isness, and/or beingness." Selling Water by the River

Yes, agree. Please allow me some further musings (not specifically adressed to your post, just some general ramblings).... Others don't exist. Yes. But at the same time, "oneself"/separate self also does not exist. Exist=Ex-ist, or literally: standing out from Reality. Practically: really doesn't exist. Just an illusion. Has the same level of reality/existence as the tree "one" watches: an arising illusion. In reality, when the separate self illusion no longer arises, the tree is watching itself, perceptions perceiving themselves. And practically speaking: If one gets rid of the fake illusory separate-self, the problem of "others" is also solved: Non Dual. No others. Not Two. But also not one.... Because one doesn't make sense without two. Reality itself. Is not one. Is not two. Is infinite. And that Reality is fully empty, fully impersonal, perceptions perceiving themselves. If one gets rid of others first before getting rid/transcending ones separate self, one gets the solipsism-narcissm show. And nothing with real Nonduality, not two, but just a ego-show of the highest degree. Neti Neti. The deep structure of EVERY spiritual path. Before becoming everything, one has to become nothing. Nothingness. Because if one doesn't, one isn't fully empty/Nothingness, which is the essence of every appearance. Path (1) is hard, its transcending/letting go/death and dying of the separate self. Path (2) seems easy (just change some concepts/thinking, et voila), but backfires at the end. It just doesn't work, suffering continues. So if one is not fully empty/impersonal/fully Nothingness (goal path 1), only thing left to do (path 2) to is to project this more (like an empty witness) or less (like the fully narcicisstic ego-separate-self-grandiosity-show) onto a more or less nondual field. True nonduality is being fully empty/impersonal. Its very easy to get a nondual experience merging with the visual field while not being empty, still being a separate self with individuality: Just drop some Psychedelics.... Nondual is not enlightened (or fully imperpersonal Nothingness being Everything, or Reality itself). But Nonduality is a prerequisite of realizing true Nonduality, or the fully empty impersonal Enlightenment/Nonduality, realizing ones Identity as Reality itself. Empty, Impersonal Nothingness, or Pure Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. The essence of all arisings, Infinite Reality itself, the Absolute. Thou shalt not be able to see my face; for no man shall see my face, and live. - Exodus 33:20 Selling Water by the River

And that is why it makes zero sense to say "only you experience pain, go slap a person to prove it", as that is dealing with personal selves and not the impersonal self. Q.E.D.

True. On an Absolute Level, IT truly is solipsistic. When ones identity is truly Fully Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. But then, there is no point talking about it.... to whom? Because if one talks to beings with ego/separate-self still not fully transcended, what is described below normally happens (1). And if "going Solipsism" while the ego/separate self still is not fully transcended (which is in 99% of cases the case), it is normally is (or ends) in a hilarious narcissistic ego-show of the highest degree. And that narcissistic ego-show is the opposite of transcending the separate self/ego towards True Impersonal Infinite Consciousness. So either way, its a bad idea. And why is Solipsism so attractive? (1) To blow up ones Ego/separate self to more than it is, grandiose-narcissistic-self-importance-style. And that is the opposite of the spiritual path, or dying/transcending of ones separate self illusions, letting go of it, to discover newer/larger and more empty identities.... Selling Water by the River

I see, thanks for the clarifying. Then I didn't fully understand your post on the first try. And I agree to your interpretations. He has so much potential with his path so far, and this site and its impact, and he is a very smart cookie... Lets see if he uses it for good, meaning and final Great Enlightenment, or a weird-hybrid of staying top-dog of something less than enlightened. Challenge is: He really is a pioneer, seeing things on his trips that probably nobody ever has seen (but I don't know, previous cultures&traditions also did lots of psychedelics and were also not dumb). Including some "Jester-elements" at the higher levels of the manifestation-pyramid seducing him with the self-importance they grant him during these trips&afterwards, with best regards & a kiss from Maya herself. Gotta keep the illusion working, not that God forbid, too many really wake up. The only question is if he is a) smart enough with b) good enough Karma to keep the narcissm/self-grandiosity/self-importance/ego-boosting in check and at some point really crosses over to Impersonal Enlightenment. Which really is death of anything ego/narcissm. My personal perspective is: self-importance is like a filter to intelligence and intuition, it makes dumb or prevents Infinite Intelligence to giving certain insights. But to have a Lila, you need Illusion. And the biggest motivating element, the biggest illusion-creator, is self-importance. Don't ask me how I know that.... yours truly did this mistake way too often, until a lucky kind-a-suicide happened.... Guess we stay tuned how it all develops.... Would be nice if it works out well for Leo & show & forum, since I haven't seen a place like this yet. If somebody is aware of a similiar forum, also well frequented with many ingenious and interesting characters, with a bit less solipsistic madness confusion and the capacity to tell the difference between solipsism/narcissm and transcendence, and more humble and honest striving to kill/transcend the remnants of the veils of the separate self, but with a similiar level of openness to for example psychedelics&innovation&clear description of the higher stages, please let me know. My suspect would be Dharma Overground, but I have no experience with that place. Guess there is no place like this here, but don't know.... Water by the River

Very interesting collection of quotes. He is definitely smart enough to understand the difference between Solipsism and real Nonduality. But I don't think the dark move you describe happenened. He doesn't need to do that just for his brand. If he wanted money & fame & validation & attention & whatever, he would probably just start the mother of all cults. Smart enough he is.... I believe something else happened here: Many trips, and fully being this Imagined Universe/Multiverse, which he then called God. What I would call Buddhafield with a Buddha/Manager/God of that Reality/whatever you want to call it. Something has to run and be this show. In mystical experiences and/or trips you can become that God. Merge with it, or become it as Identity (Wilbers high subtle and low causal levels). Still not the end of the story. Because: What is the essence of that Buddha/Manager/God of that Reality/whatever you want to call it? Nothingness. And during these trips, it became clear for him that he actually was that. The Reality of that Multiverse/Buddhafield, already a nondual merging with all of that. Sovereign. But not fully empty. So far, so good. Not fully Empty Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness. Wilbers High Causal, Nothingness. The Gateless Gate and Gate-Keeper, after which real Nondual Enlightenment waits.... Steven Wolinsky writes of something very similiar (see below). Funny thing is: His trips have shown him 95%+ of the properties of Reality, and more or less fully shown him how this God/Buddhafield/Void Universe works, merging with it in a nondual way. And realizing that being that was more true to his true core than the everday waking character. But not realizing the Abyss of the Absolute, not the totally empty Nothingness. He thinks he has it, but if one is still aware of an "it", ... But there is/was still a very subtle "he" perceiving "that" or "being" that left. Then he doubted that to be final, doubted everything, and tried to reach out for "something" beyond (see his Video "Infinity of Gods". And he says in the Infinity of Gods video then "conincidentally" at exactly that moment another God/Buddhfield/Multiverse/rReality reached out (by free will) to touch him as God/Buddhafield. Thus maintaining the sovereignity of both him as God/Void Universe, and the other God/Void Universe. Then he postulated an Infinity of other Gods or Buddhafields, just like "him". Basically, he had to deviate from classic Nondual/Infinite teachings, invent the Infnity of Gods theory, to make place for his experience that there was still another God/Void Universe reaching out to him. All of wich exists, but all of which is still form, identity, ... . Not the absolute Abyss of fully Empty Impersonal Nothingness/Consciousness, or the essence of Reality itself.... and of course, it doesn't really make sense to talk of oneself as the God/Void-Universe running/being this dimension. Even if one is that (because one is all), its too risky to talk like that and make onself confuse or inflate ones separate self/perspective with that larger more encompassing perspective/being (a larger Holon, the Void Universe Buddhafield God Holon containing all lower perspectives/Holons within it), or cause that to happen at others. But that is another topic... That seems to be more or less the end of the road where you can go to with Psychedelics with the separate self not fully gone, but 95%+ gone. An awareness of emptiness, of God, of the Infinity of Gods/Buddhafields/sovereign Manifestations, even an Identity with it. And having ones fellow God-buddies reach out to oneself (Infinity of Gods). With a little bit of confusing the properties of that Buddhafield-God, like sovereignity, and projecting that on himself. But all in all still an awareness OF something. and By something, BEING something..... the very last remnants of a nearly totally empty Individuality/Identity aware of ... [something], whatever that is at the moment. Awakening n+1. At least while tripping. Not fully empty, not fully impersonal, neither while tripping, and definitely not after the trip. But proclaiming that this not empty identity is a higher Awakening than the full empty impersonal Enlightenment to fully empty impersonal consciousness/Nothingness, and then truly being everything. Including the Infinity of Gods, the infinity of other Void-Universes-Manifestation-Dimensions. If he would look deeply into the emptiness (or mere appearance) of all that he experienced during these trips, all his assumptions/concepts/pet theories, all his last remaining last Individuality-arisings, and let of them die, truly die, truly transcend them, disidentitfy, let go.... we could get to see an Enligthenment to true Nothingness, a final waking up to his True Being, being so empty that it can fully hold and be everything, also while not tripping. That would be the end of his grasping for ever new insights, understandings and Awakenings n+1. It would also be an end to him as separate self. I doubt that can be done using mainly/only psychedelics, because of the time one needs in these empty states to truly get rid of every last separate-self arising/and last Identity/any awareness "of" something, without frying ones brains. But I could be wrong on that, I don't know. Lets see if Karma holds that for him Enlightenment on his path. At least from my side he has the best wishes to bask in the final liberation and bliss that that brings. And with that step, he would integrate his teachings with the collected experience of humanity on Enlightenment and waking up, and even push the knowledge into the manifested nature of the Multiverse, or into knowledge about form/manifestation, further. Knowledge of the Absolute (Emptiness/Nothingness) always is the same, at all times, forever. Doesn't change, and can only be realized by being it, letting any cloud darkening the Sun of ones ever burning Primordial Being finally evaporate. Water by the River The quotes from Steven Wolinsky, The Way of the Human Part 3 "In 1995, what “this” was became clear enough for “me” to describe because, for the first time, “I” could “see” that this was beyond the VOID—and, more importantly, there was not one VOID but an infinite number of VOID universes. In other words, the VOID appears to go on forever. However, it does have an end, and when the end is reached, the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE is revealed. To best illustrate this, imagine, you are in an oil well (VOID) in the middle of the Sahara desert. While you are in this oil well (VOID), you have all the experiences contained within that particular oil well universe. From inside the oil well universe (the VOID) an infinite number of experiences exist which are true and specific to and within that particular VOID (oil well) universe only. But when or if “you” were to expand and reach the top of the well and climb out, you would be in the desert (the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE) and “you” could “view” an infinite number of VOID universes (many, many oil wells) which in Quantum Physics could be likened to parallel universes. In India, beyond the WITNESS and the VOID OF UN-DIFFERENTIATED CONSCIOUSNESS lies the SUPREME WITNESS which Quantum Psychology calls the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE. Now, within “our” VOID universe are the concepts of energy, electromagnetics, gravity, space, mass, time, distance, location, God, enlightenment, One Substance, quantum physics, Archetypes, paths, religions, etc., etc., etc., etc. But these are true only within our one particular VOID universe—they may or may not make any “sense” within other VOID universes. It can be said, then, that the SUPREME WITNESS is beyond the infinite number of VOID universes. The most powerful Archetype in “this,” “our” VOID universe, is the collective concept of GOD. The concept of God and a seeker after God or truth are Archetypes of such magnitude that it impacts practically everyone in the world. Most religions are based on an omnipresent God who somehow rules the universe." and " The “space” between the VOID universes (VOIDs) is the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE. For descriptive terms only, this is the difference between SELF-REALIZATION and GOD-REALIZATION. The realization of “NOT-I-I,” the VOID OF UNDIFFERENTIATED CONSCIOUSNESS is SELF REALIZATION. GOD REALIZATION is BEYOND SELF REALIZATION and the VOID OF UNDIFFERENTIATED CONSCIOUSNESS. It is the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE and it is the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE which erases all other dimensions including the VOID. In the NAMELESS ABSOLUTE, even the VOID must be gone beyond. " Only problem with the last paragraph is the definition of the wording. Leos God-Realization corresponds to Wolinskys Self-Realization, and Wolinskis God-Realization is the Realization of the Absolute. PSPS: Yesterday, pretty much by conincidence I drove by and visisted the ruins of Monastery Disibodenberg, where female mystic Hildegard von Bingen lived and worked in the 12th century. I didn't know she was living there when deciding to visit the place. A marvelous atmosphere of a large monastery in ruins, in a forest on top of a mountain, where Hildegard lived and worked. The rays of the Divinity running this Reality/Universe found their ways at all times, all places. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kloster_Disibodenberg https://www.google.com/search?q=monastery+disibodenberg&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE3qSH0f_-AhUIn6QKHQHpBHIQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1745&bih=845&dpr=1.1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen

" where are the infinite multiverses? and the rats, intelligent and stupid? and razard?" There are no multiverses. Only the perspectives of each holon/being of which these apparent multiverses "persist", or rather are imagined. Indras Net of perspectives, each perspective reflecting and containing all other perspectives/beings/holons/crystals in Indras Net. Picture in the post above (also shown below). Non-Euclidian-Space can contain infinite perspectives, something like in the vision of Marc Leavitt: And the One with a second, or Absolute Infinite Impersonal Consciousness holds and watches all these perspectives, but a "human"-perspective/being is unaware of all the other perspectives, or forgets them "in space", like we normally forget things "in time". Reality is made of perspectives, each perspective containing/reflecting each other, and the "aware" "thing" is the same in all of them: Infinite Impersonal Consciousness. It is also the essence of any appearance appearing in a perspective. But it is impersonal, so empty it feels like death. There is no separate-self, and it doesn't need to make I-feelings or I-thoughts (the separate self, ego) appear. As a molecule, or animal, it can do fine without.... For more of that theory that reality is made of Holons, or perspectives, or Indras Net, see Ken Wilber "Sex, Ecology, Spirituality". Maybe that is interesting for you. Selling Water by the River