Forestluv

Is the mind curious? Does it explore and learn new things in a relative world?

That is beautiful imagery. And I find it empowering to continue on a challenging journey. ♥️ ?

It sounds like you built yourself another perspective. Nothing wrong with that. It’s the name of the game. If you grow tired of that one, move on to the next one, then the next, then the next. . . Your perspectives will get more integrated and deep. These are all relative perspectives that arise from one absolute. There is no one “correct” perspective to be found. They keep evolving from the One Absolute. It never ends. Don’t get attached or grasp in to any of them - that would cause suffering.

@Kaity Psychedelic expands one’s mind. In terms of mind expansion, I don’t think HSP is an advantage or disadvantage. They might need a lower dose or a trip sitter for support. I imagine that more significant factors would likely be sincerity, humility and open-mindedness.

No. Tribalism is not “left” or “right” in the SD model.

You can create a broader grouping of tribalism if you like. That would be like saying there are expessions of purple/blue within Green. Or, one could say there is a phenomena called “tribalism” or “community” that is expressed at each level. This would be like saying the phenomena of “religion” iccurs at each stage. It is just the expression if the phenoena that looks different at each stage. I.e. Blue religion is expressed differently than Green religion. I like prefer the latter, to create levels if a phenomena - let’s say a sense of community. Purple to lower blue is such a small contracted expression if community that I would call it tribal - to distinguish it as a rudimentary form of community. Upper blue to upper Green has a more mature, expansive view of community. Green- level community is *much* more expansive than Purple, Red or Blue. At Green level, we are talking about soneone who has done things like: lived in a variety of communities, including low income; has lived within communities in foreign countries; has learned a foreign language to expand their ability to make more diverse human connections, has been in inter-racial relationships, has volunteered for people in poverty, addictions, mental illness. Has meditation and yoga communities. A solid Green level is actually a network of dozens of communities - so by defintion they cannot be tribal. Purple/red/blue is contracted within a single community - a tribe. Green is too multi-community to be tribal. They can be arrogant, rude, angry, and judgmental - yet their sense of community is still much mire expansive than lower stages. I would call it something like a “distorted multi-community” mindset - not tribalism.

@Speedscarlet There are a lot of great communities in Detroit. I’ve met so many really good people here. You are welcome to visit. I think your perspective might change.

@Yarco Cultural immersion did wonders for me.

To see the value of Orange, let's back up the truck and look where Orange evolved from. . . Stage Blue has "either / or" thinking. "Good / Bad" thinking. They don't see shades of grey. A Blue person sees each person as "Good" or "Bad". An Orange person can see that people are not all "Good" or all "Bad". A person could have some Good traits and some bad traits. A person could be mostly Good, yet have some Bad habits they need to do some self improvement on. I would say that is an upgrade. A Blue person typically imagines a god in the sky that is the authority on morality. For example, whatever the Bible says is moral authority. If you disobey the Bible or don't believe in the Bible, you are a sinner and you might go to hell. A healthy Orange person thinks "Hey, wait a minute. Not all of the stuff in the Bible makes sense. It was written by Bronze age men thousands of years ago. They didn't know much then. Maybe they did their best to record the message of Jesus, but misinterpreted a few things. And maybe over the years, a few things got misinterpreted. Maybe the Bible contains some good lessons and some bad lessons. If that is true, maybe the Koran also has some good lessons and bad lessons. Maybe Buddhism has some good lessons.". I would say that is an upgrade. Blue believes that the purpose of life is to sacrifice one's life to god, so that they can go to heaven and avoid going to hell. As well, they often believe that if other people don't follow their god, then they will go to hell. An Orange person is like "Wait a minute, how can we be sure there is a heaven and hell? Is there any evidence that a heaven or hell exists? Maybe it's better to to live this life I have to my best ability. Maybe I should do a personal improvement workshop so I can develop skills to be successful". I would say that is an upgrade. Each stage has a series of upgrades. It's like upgrading software from 1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0 etc.

Exactly. That is the point. Blue/Orange has not reached a developmental stage in which they can comprehend Green-level community (such as a Bernie Sanders community). The developmental level of Blue/Orange only allows them to perceive communities as Blue and below. Therefore they are unable to make a distinction between Green level communities (such as Bernie Sanders) and Red/Blue level communities (Trump tribalism). They will both look similar. One needs to evolve to stage Green to understand the difference. This isn't a question of "Left" or "Right". There is very little tribalism in Green. Green has evolved beyond that. Occasionally extreme unhealthy Green that pops up that appears similar to Blue level tribalism. Similarly, occasionally extreme unhealthy Orange pops up that appears similar to Red. For example, an extreme corporate manager that threatens to kill a competitor.

In Tier1, each stage includes people that will demonize people in other stages. Stage Red will demonize Blue and vice-versa. Are unhealthy Blue expressions a good reason for Red to stay Red? For example, Blue highly values rules and laws. Sometimes Blue swings to an extreme and creates laws that are too strict. Is that a good reason for Red to say "See!!! Laws are repressive!! Laws are bad!!! No more Laws!!! Anarchy is better!!!"? Of course not. It would be better for Red to evolve into a healthy Blue and recognize the value of laws in society. Once the person has entered Blue, how can they promote Blue to become healthier? Similarly, some people in stage Blue/Orange will demonize Green and vice-versa. Sometimes Green swings to an extreme and may discriminate against white people. Is that a good reason for Blue/Orange to say "See!!! Multiculturalism is discriminatory!!! Inclusion is discriminatory!!! Equality is discrimination in disguise!!! Segregation and tribalism is better!!!" Of course not. It would be better for Blue/Orange to evolve into healthy Green and recognize the value of multiculturalism, inclusion and equality in society. Once the person has entered Green, how can they promote Green to be even healthier?

This is a great point that we might be able to connect to Wilber's "pre/trans" fallacy. Orange see themselves as "rational" and Red/Blue as irrational. Yet, Orange cannot yet comprehend post-rational at Green/Yellow levels. Thus, Orange sees anything non-rational as being irrational. For example, Orange see Turquoise-level mysticism as irrational nonsense characteristic of Purple and Blue. Similarly, Orange cannot comprehend the higher level Green communities. To Orange, it appears like Red/Blue tribalism communities. For example, Orange may be unable to make a distinction between Red/Blue Trump tribalism and Green Bernie Sanders communities.

@Nadosa Lisa Cairns helped me with my incomplete / fragmented inner experience. She teaches from the heart, not the head. That's what I needed at that time

@thehero @Azote As Leo mentioned in his video, it's challenging to navigate life when one has evolved to the high end of their community. For me, that means evolving into Yellow/Turquoise in a Orange/Green community. I'm at a small college and I've run out of colleagues at my level of development. It's just me now. There is no one here to discuss developing at Yellow/Turquoise. Everyone wants to be hyper analytical (philosophy and science), human expression (communication and art departments) or how to increase diversity and equality on campus. All Orange and Green stuff. There is noone here talking about how to incorporate Yellow/Turquoise modes of thinking / being into the curriculum (except for some shallow talk about "integrating" course material interdisciplinary). Very few college professors in the world are at this level. My whole life, there have been Orange and Green professors pulling me up the spiral. No I don't see any. I don't see any books or videos about how to become an effective Yellow/Turquoise college teacher. Not much on how to create a Yellow/Turquoise course and classroom environment. This semester I am developing / teaching a course on consciousness. I'm all alone. As I try to pull my colleagues up, some colleagues try to pull me back down. As Leo said in his video, they are like crabs in a bucket trying to pull me down. I meditate with my students in class. I teach nonduality. I integrate science and metaphysics. A few of my colleagues are intrigued. A few of my colleagues are like "wtf, pull that crab down!" Overall, it is a mixed experience. At times disappointment, frustration and uncertainty. Other times, it is exciting, empowering and magnificent.

I think you are placing a lot of emphasis on the delusions of Green. Of course there are delusions with Green - they are only slightly more evolved than Orange. A child passes through 4th grade to reach 6th grade. Teachers want to help both the 4th graders and 6th graders evolve upward into higher grades. High conscious teachers evaluate 4th graders in the context of how can we help them learn, expand and evolve upward toward 5th grade. Similarly, we evaluate 6th graders in a way to help them evolve upward to 7th grade. For each child, what are their deficiencies? What are their blocks? I don't think it's helpful compare the mindsets of 4th and 6th graders to determine which is "better". We don't say "Well, that 4th grader said something true. Prove to me that what the 4th grader said is false". Or: "That 6th grader didn't know a fact. 6th graders are delusional just like 4th graders". . . Children in each grade are at their own developmental level. In order to help a 4th grader advance to the next grade, we need to know what the developmental characteristics of the next grade are. Would we expect a 4th grader to immediately advance to the 12th grade? Of course not. Just because 5th graders have their own delusions and immaturities, doesn't mean we don't try to help them evolve one grade higher. Similarly, JP is a Blue/Orange 4th grader. Of course 4th graders know a few things. We are trying to help him to advance to 5th grade (upper Orange) and then to 6th grade (Green). Of course 5th graders (upper Orange) and 6th graders (Green) have misconceptions and immaturities. Yet, we can't advance a 4th grader at Blue/Orange straight to the 12th grade (Yellow). We would if we could. But we can't. The cognitive level of a 4th grader is incapable of understanding the perspectives of a 12th grader. Yet, JP goes beyond merely resisting the 5th grade. Not only is he a rebellious 4th grader, he is trying to interfere with other 4th graders from evolving toward the 6th grade. JP is happy to pull up 3rd graders to his 4th grade level, yet he wants to prevent his classmates from advancing on to the 5th grade. One of the missions for Tier2 beings is to recognize these blocks in Tier1 beings and help to relieve the blocks. A 5th grader (upper orange) cannot do it. A 6th grader (Green) cannot do it well - they are still too immature. It needs to come from highly mature individuals in Tier2. It doesn't help to point at the immaturity of 6th graders and say "See, they are immature too!! Just like the 4th graders!!". It doesn't help to say "4th graders say some true things, just like 6th graders!!". What helps is teaching 4th graders material so they can advance and teaching 6th graders material so they can advance. What helps is identifying the blocks a 4th grader has that interferes from learning this material. What helps is taking a meta view of all the grades and designing pedagogies that can help the evolution of children at each developmental stage. There is a tremendous amount of internal conflict within Tier1. Getting bogged down in comparing stages against each other is a distraction and just perpetuates the conflict. If we want to help 4th graders (blue/orange) mature, let's discuss their level of development and how we can help them mature. If we want to help 6th graders (Green) mature, let's discuss their level of development and how we can help them mature. JP is a 4th grader and has 4th grade issues, not 6th grade issues. And someone like Sam Seder is solid 6th grade (Green). Sam has 6th grade issues, not 4th grade or 8th grade issues. I would be happy to discuss Sam Seders blocks and how we might help him to evolve to Yellow. Yet, this thread is about 4th graders like JP, not 6th graders like Sam Seder. When the 4th and 6th grade children fight amongst themselves, Tier2 beings need to take a meta view and be a mature teacher / parent to help teach the children to mature. The Big Picture of SD is to help people develop - whatever stage they may be at. In this case, the burning question for Tier2 is: How can we help JP and his followers to develop to upper Orange? If we take an honest look, a huge part of the resistance is toward the next step (Green). A big part of why JP doesn't want to enter 5th grade is because he doesn't like 6th graders. To me, the solution is not to tell JP and his followers "Well, 4th graders have a lot of good things going on and 6th grade sucks in a lot of ways". That is just going to cause more resistance.

@Nadosa I've also experienced existential anxiety and panic during consciousness evolution. My ego has struggled to maintain control of the internal narrative in my mind. At times it felt like I was losing my mind. This ego was particularly afraid of the uncertainty of what might happen if it let go of control. It through out all sorts of scary ideas and images to hinder progress. Thoughts like "If you surrender to this 'whatever' you have no idea what could happen!! You could go insane, lose your job, harm other people. Don't go there!!" What helped me proceed was a realization that all of these thoughts of self, fear, anxiety, stories are *within* something much more expansive. Then, a curiosity began to arise. . . If thise self/ego is within something more expansive, what's in the expansiveness? Then a wonderful exploration can begin. It's not like the self has to surrender itself to some psychotic monster. What exists beyond the ego is more beautiful, magnificent and peaceful than anything the self could imagine.

This belief was a really big hurdle for me to get over. And I see it in others as well. This belief still assumes there is a "me". This belief is still from the perspective of a self/ego. Imagine that there was a rockslide near a highway that killed lots of people on a highway. Would we blame the mountain? Of course not. There is no "self" in the mountain to blame. Would we close the highway down and reinforce the mountain side so this doesn't occur again? Of course. Imagine there is a lion that escaped from it's zoo cage and killed several people. Would we blame the lion? Of course not. There is no "self" in the lion to blame. Would we close the zoo and reinforce the animal cages so this doesn't occur again? Of course. Imagine an armed teenager enters a school and kills several students. Would we blame the armed teenager? Of course not. There is no "self" in the armed teenager to blame. Would we remove the teenager from society so this doesn't occur again? Of course.

Yes, it is a different perspective. I'm more interested in the Big Picture. I'm more interested in the lens JP is wearing rather than dissecting the details of his individual claims. From this perspective, JPs lens is low consciousness and fundamentally flawed. In particular, that an objective moral law exists. What you are saying would also apply to someone with schizophrenia or someone tripping on a psychedelic. One could say these individuals have a distorted lens. Would having schizophrenia or tripping on psychedelics have any bearing on whether a claim is true or false? Does it only have bearing on interpretation and proposed solutions? Do schizophrenics and people tripping make some correct claims and miss the mark on proposed claims? Who is deciding which claims are "correct" and which "miss the mark"? Who decides what "the mark" even is? . . . This is part of the problem with Orange - they believe in an external objective moral reality. I think you are assuming that fundamental Blue/Orange mindsets are sane. A blue/orange egoic mindset is nearly at max delusion. It is insanity. Green and psychedelic mindstates are also delusional, yet less so than an egoic Blue/Orange. Yes, we can learn from delusional Blue/Orange mindsets. I'm more interested in the basis of delusional mindsets that are "mentally ill" in a sense. I think JP is a great example where we can observe the nuances of low conscious delusion. With this understanding, we can help people evolve up the spiral. That is one of the motivations of Tier2 - we want to help people to evolve up the spiral. JP is trying to prevent people from evolving upward beyond blue/orange. Understanding the basis of JPs motivation and why it resonates with so many people is an extremely important key to help society evolve higher. If we can dissolve that delusional barrier, society's upward evolution can proceed with less restrictions.

In hand movement studies (in which a participant touches a left or right lever), neuro-imaging can detect the participants choice before the participant is aware of their choice. If the "choice" is made before you are aware of the choice, who is the chooser?

Why is it applicable a squirrel does the "hard work" of collecting nuts in the autumn? Have you ever experienced a "flow state" in which your mind-body moved on it's own with no one in control? Perhaps while doing a sport like skiing or mountain biking - or playing a musical instrument. Where you were in the "zone" and afterwards thought "Whoa, who was playing that instrument?"

Orange can also be expressed as a shallow intellect stage as well - e.g. Richard Dawkins.

There are several paths through Orange. I disliked materialism as I passed through Orange. I was hooked on other Orange aspects: logic, reason, science, theories, debates.

@Outer One doesn’t abandon lessons learned from lower levels. Like 5th grade builds in 4th grade. You don’t aboandon everything you’ve learned from 4th grade. Their is a pendulum swing from a self-sacrificing orientation to a self-centered orientation. Back and forth. But not really abandoning JP isn’t misogynist / racist enough for red / low blue

Red / Lower Blue will not like JP.

@Matt8800 Yellow has transcended Orange AND Green. In addition, Yellow has advanced even higher with it’s own Yellow develop. It is much further advanced than Blue/Orange. It is like comparing a child from a small town to an adult that speaks four languages, has traveled around the world and has graduate degrees in art, mathematics and biology. Then, asking the child and adult to critique a High School system in a multiethnic area of New York City and write a proposal to increase ciricular effectiveness in a community in which less than half the population speaks fluent English. The child would propose free candy, games and long recess hours. Other children would cheer his proposal. To Yellow, JP has the conscious level of a child. He isn’t even close to transitioning into Green. He hasn’t embodied anything about Green. He doesn’t understand Green because he has not reached that level of development. He has a very limited perspective at his low level of development. Another analogy: it’s like asking a slave owner to write public policy for the ethical teatment of humans. This is incomprehensible to the slave owner. His level of development is too low. JP is only one conscious level higher than a slave owner (red/blue). JP’s level of development is too low to comprehend higher conscious perspectives. His mind is incapable of understanding Green and Yellow. He is not part of a higher conscious solution. He is part of a lower conscious problem that society is trying to evolve upward from. Yellow and Green are trying to pull upward. JP is trying to pull downward. He is part of the problem, not solution. Hiwever, JP can help raise Red and lower Blue up to high Blue/Orange.