Forestluv

It's so hard to get through to those darn science guys. . .

Haha. Yea, I tried to duck the question since I could sense it would derail the conversation. I first said I was a "mystical scientist", yet that didn't go over too well. I like your answer and will try it if I'm in that situation again.

Hmmm, that's not the conclusion I would make from it. I would look at it another way. . . More like exercise. Having a lifestyle with regular exercise is healthy (and likely also helps de-condition the mind). Exercise can become a lifestyle. People walk, hike, run, ski, play soccer, lift weights, ride a bicycle etc. It's not like they think "I have to get in exercise. I guess I should go for a bicycle ride so I don't turn into a fat slob". Rather, they just do it - like second nature. It's a beautiful day and we are on vacation, let's go for a hike! Exercise is a chore for some and a delight for others. Likewise, awareness of conditioned personality dynamics can be a chore or a delight. Once a mind gets the hang of observing itself, it becomes second nature. It's not like "I better go sit on a cushion and deconstruct these awful unconditioned psychological dynamics so I don't turn into a fearful loser my whole life". Rather, you just do it. During the day stuff arises and it's like "whoa, where did that come from? How does that dynamic work and how is it serving me? How interesting. Fascinating".

@CreamCat I haven't used a recliner, yet I'm past middle-aged and extended meditation sessions do not feel healthy for my back. I've found I can go enter meditative "spaces" during yin yoga - and as a bonus, it's actually healthy for my back. Yet, it might not resonate with others.

@Leo Gura Yea. It also seems like openmindedness can be really tricky as well. After I wrote that passage describing my wonderful open-mindedness, I realized I was seeing her perspective from my perspective. From her perspective, it seems that I was an odd scientist bastardizing and diluting the essence of pure spirituality. That it totally reasonable from her perspective. I really liked your metaphor of drawing images in front of a camera. One needs to draw it as a mirror-image for the other to perceive the correct orientation. For example, when you motion upward growth on a chart, you do it backwards. Quite often, I draw my drawing and it makes complete sense to me. Yet seeing it from another perspective requires a new level of openness and to draw the picture to that perspective takes practice and skill. I actually loved Sedona. I was there years ago when I was Orange-Centered. It was a very different experience this time around. The resonance was much stronger. And tripping in a natural energy vortex was quite "enlightening". Regarding what you wrote about epistemic foundations. . . I don't have any formal training in epistemology, yet you suggested that I am "getting it". Is it possible to "get" the underlying essence without formal study of epistemology? Perhaps through related side routes or direct experience? For example, a lot of your videos probably have this essence without referring to it as "epistemology". As well, could a person have realizations in this area during contemplation? . . . I'm just wondering if I am missing out on something of value, yet I also don't want to have to work my way through a bunch of philosophical / intellectual weeds.

To love another so deeply you melt and become love To appreciate creativity so deeply tears appear in your eyes To explore ones emotions and connect to others in deep and meaningful ways To see beauty in diverse manifestations To be in awe of your own right-brain activity To feel inter-connection between one's mind, body and spirit To frolic and laugh with others beyond words To allow the intellectual mind and analysis to rest and fully immerse oneself in the beauty of the moment These are all core components of Green. The depth and quality of the human experience is sooo much deeper than Orange. All those youtube videos of Orange demonizing Green is giving you a distorted view of the essence of Green. Orange is in the head. Green is in the heart. Take the long journey from your head to your heart. Immerse yourself there. The embodiment of Green is absolutely wonderful. . . My transition out of Orange was much easier than my transition out of Green. After my first few direct experiences of Green, I was like "Wait a minute, I get to trade in Orange for this? Sign me up!". It's a no-brainer.

I would say that segments of culture recognizes and values various forms of intelligence. Yet I would agree that many cultures, in general, define and value intelligence as IQ-related. And reality certainly recognizes other forms of intelligence. Reality recognizes creative, intuitive, empathic, social and emotional modes of intelligence, just as it does cognitive intelligence. Develop these modes and the mind-body's relationship with reality will be very different.

What is your direct experience when you are with other people or out in nature? What is the actual direct experience prior to any of the thought stories? My mind-body is highly empathic in it's direct experience. The story of Solipsism is sooo far away from the direct experience. I have had a few encounters with Solipsism and my mind-body finds it disturbing a- it does not resonate with that story at all.

I'm not sure of the proper technical use of the terms "crystals" and "powder". They both kinda look similar to me, yet I haven't taken a real close look at each. The HCL form will easily dissolve in water. Freebase will not.

HCL Is plugged. Freebase is smoked.

@The Don Your orientation will cut down your pool of quite a bit. It sounds like you don’t want to be in a relationship that becomes inter-twined, yet you also don’t want to a purely solo path. My sense is you also would like to have something with depth, rather than a sex-based fling. I would have a similar orientation, most of the women I met desire a more inter-twinned relationship. There’s nothing wrong with that, yet it appears to be how most people are orientated. I’ve also met women who are oriented toward open relationships / polyamory. This takes her focus off me and allows me solitary time, yet I end up developing feelings for the person and I’m just not oriented toward polyamory. Another option is to find someone with a similar orientation. Someone who is also oriented toward monogamy, yet also is very independent and values her solitary time and time with others. Ime, this is a very rare find. I’ve found only found a couple women that are naturally oriented like this. Other issues that may be present are fears of intimacy and commitment. I’ve worked through these and have been in very intimate and committed relationship. Yet the underlying orientation remains; a desire to spend a portion of my life solo and a portion of my life with her. Not fully inter-twined and not fully parallel - yet generally closer to parallel than inter-twined.

@Lister You describe some nice realizations here. It can feel unstable and groundless to the mind-body. With time, things can get integrated and embodied, giving a sense of grounding. Greater awareness of the personality construct is revealed and transcended into areas of “transpersonal” being. You are entering deeper areas few humans explore. For me the growth was not linear and I needed a lot of practice and nondual videos to get some sense of grounding. During this time, I resonated to heart-centered teachers that seemed grounded and gentle. At times my mind/body just couldn’t get into the nondual UFC octagon to get it’s ass kicked again. This was certainly helpful at times, yet too much of that became really unhealthy to my mind-body. As the self lost it’s control over the narrative, I also practiced various forms of self love. It seems paradoxical and counter-intuitive, yet that was resonated and I went with it. . . A balance between the self getting it’s ass kicked and self-love. . . Over time, new forms of wonder, curiosity, genuineness, love and appreciation of life began to emerge. It’s beautiful.

@now is forever To relate the concepts: I would say what IS is limitless. A mind needs to introduce a limiting idea to create an illusion of limitless. I would not use the term “potential” because this term is highly suggestive of a timeline and a movement in time. Relatively speaking, the term “manipulate” has value in many contexts. And I use that term at times. Yet it is part of a thought story in an effort to make sense of one’s reality.

The term “vs” was not the best term for me to use. I think a better term is “and”. There is a dualism of perfect/imperfect and a dualism of potential/limits. As well, there is a higher order dualism between perfect/imperfect and potential/limits. In it’s truest sense ISness cannot be “manipulated”. The idea of manipulating ISness is just a human idea within the construct of an illusory timeline. Similarly the idea of “making decisions” is also an idea. These ideas are certainly interesting, practical and a fundamental aspect of the human experience. Yet as well, what IS, IS - regardless of any ideas the mind has about manipulating ISness and decisions. Those ideas themselves are ISness.

@Conrad Welcome back ♥️ ?

Ahhh, very nice. Yes I have. Insights into inputs prior to birth were revealed in a sensory deprivation tank and are integrated into the view presented above. My brain-body has reached deep relaxation in SD tanks. I’m feeling like I’m due for another float soon.

@now is forever I don’t think in terms of absolute perfection vs absolute imperfection. That plays into the duality. If I want to explore the dualism of perfection and imperfection, I won’t use absolute terms. To my mind, it muddies the water and makes it harder to observe the interplay between and within dualisms. I don’t consider “dualism” to be a lesser term or area of exploration than “absolute”. I’ve spent some time contemplating the dualism of limitation and potential. Yet I haven’t contemplated the integration of limit/potential and perfect/imperfect. That’s not to say there isn’t some juicy stuff in there, it’s just not where my mind is drawn to and I don’t feel like I have any insights in this area to offer.

I do a form of “do nothing” mediation - yet it’s more like observing what arises without attachment/identification of a doer. For example, I may sit on my couch for an hour and just star and observe. Yet I don’t set a setting like “Ok, for the next hour, I am going to shift my orientation so I am doing nothing. I am going to light a candle, burn incense and sit on my cushion in a half-lotus position so I can enter a do-nothing mindset and start doing nothing”. . . That formal do-nothing practice was very helpful for a while. Yet the lines between “do nothing mediation” and “do nothing non-mediation” started to blur and melt together. Yet occasionally I still fond it helpful to do a formal “do-nothing” seated meditation. . . Along these lines, when I was a novice I used to think thank that all of life was meditation. Formal mediation was so boring and uncomfortable. Why do that when I can be meditating while I was running or listening to music ? . What I found was that I was not at that depth level and I was avoiding formal meditation, well. . . to avoid stuff and I was not growing or having realizations that come from formal meditation. As well, I know there are greater depths of formal meditation my mind-body has not experienced. I don’t understand this question “ Did you find something in aside people purging their 'unreleased trauma'”. Could you rephrase it?

Indeed. I’ve observed that dynamic many times with minds contracted within a classical scientific paradigm. I’ve also observed the reciprocal dynamic in which a mind dismisses what it categorizes as “science”. To relate this to your duality videos: I observe a “science vs non-science” dualism prevalent at the social conscious level. As we examine closer, the lines between science and not science begins to blur. And what people consider “science” varies. I have conversations with science colleagues that stir up confusion because I often blur the lines between what they categorize as “science, psuedo science and non-science”. An open, curious mind is fluid wants to explore. A closed mind is rigid wants to maintain their lines. A similar dynamic plays out with “spiritualists-minded” people as well. While I was in Sedona, I observed that several “spirituality-minded” people didn’t know if I was speaking within their categories if science or spirituality. Some people were curious and open about this, others were contracted and closed. I had one discussion with a spiritual healer who seemed to see herself “beyond” her category if what she considered science and wanted to compartmentalize science as misguided. It was her way of saying science is “woo woo”. I was fascinated with some of her spiritual insights as giggled as I made connections between reiki, energetic oscillations, quantum mechanics and neuroscience. It’s all inter-connected to me. Yet, it was as if she couldn’t maintain her categories. She stopped me and asked “part of what you just said sorta sounds like science to me. Are you a scientist?”. How do I answer that? I tried to give a holistic answer that included her category of science, yet was not limited to that category. This was unsatisfying to her and she pushed me on what my job was. When I told her, her entire orientation toward me changed and she became closed. After that she would only speak to me about surface things like how to prepare good espresso or the weather patterns around Sedona - even when I tried to stay within her category of spirituality. Once she smelled a scent if “science” in me, it was all over.

@SQAAD Hmmm, that article referenced an experiment showing the inheritance of a fear response toward electrocution. To me, that sounds like a handy fear to have. Who wants to get electrocuted? If I was able to experience fear just before getting electrocuted, I’d take that in a heartbeat. Or imagine inheriting a sense that the brain will have a stroke in an hour. The body can sense the stroke coming on and tells the mind-body what’s about to happen through the sensation of fear. That would be amazing. Just enough time to get that mind-body to a hospital before ant damage takes place. Not only do I think that’s valuable, it’s an area I’m exploring and would like to develop. Fear comes in handy because it is a powerful motivator. If a rabid pit bull starts chasing you, the mind-body will go into fight or flight and run or fight up to it’s true potential. Related to this is intuition, yet intuition is much more subtle than fear. The mind-body often is not in touch with underlying emotions and intuition, so the mind-body often uses fear. If the mind won’t luste to underlying emotions and intuition, it only seems natural to use fear to get attention and get shit done. The problem is fear often gets distorted into bizarre thought stories like “I’m not smart enough. Other people don’t like me. I’ll never be loved. What if I fail and go hungry?” From a brain-body perspective, the article raises awareness of conditioning. There is a conditioning component of the brain-body which influences the subjective experience of the mind. We have know this for decades. It is the classic “nature vs nurture” debate. Scientists agree that both nature and nurture contribute to the physiology and experience of a mind body. The classical framework separates nature and nurture into two separate categories. One’s genetics is nature and one’s external environment after birth is nurture. Yet as we look closer, these categories start to break down. Clearly, the development of a fetus is influenced by the placental environment before birth. Factors like the mother’s stress level and diet influence the physiology of the developing fetus. It gets even more bizarre. The stress level of the mother alters the micro-biome in the gut - these microbes essentially get stressed out and alter brain development and activity. Crazy stuff. And it gets crazier. We are now discovering that input prior to pregnancy will alter development of future offspring. In particular, there are epigenetic changes that alter the physiology if a mind-body before it was even born. Before it was even conceived! This is aligned with the existential view that “you were never born”. Scientists are seeing this same truth, yet from a different viewpoint. It’s like seeing the Grand Canyon from two different views. At first, the views look very different - it looks like two totally different canyons. Yet over time, the mind realizes the two views are inter-related. So having a brain-body that is highly conditioned is both good and bad, depending on perspective. My brain-body has been highly conditioned and evolved for millions of years. It contains information, knowings and insights not only during my lifetime, but before I was even born. That is mind-boggling fascinating. Imagine digging in and exploring that. It would make an amazing movie of exploration and discovery. On the flip side, it sucks. Let’s be real. . . a lot of that brain-body conditioning is very unpleasant to a brain-body. From a personal viewpoint, who wants to experience conditioned anxiety and fear? Most of these anxieties and fears are irrational and don’t serve the body. Awareness of this irrationality is helpful, yet often insufficient. Ime, I became aware of the irrational basis of these fears, yet the impulses kept arising. Anxiety and fear impulses. I got to the point where I could just observe them without attachment/identification yet they kept arising. I knew something deeper was going on and I started exploring deeper. . . What I found is that the conditioning is much more intricate than I originally thought. I’m very interested in re-conditioning the mind-mind body. Re-wiring the brain and getting it in tune with emotions, physiology and it’s environment- inducing inter-personal relations. Yet again, let’s be real. It’s easy for my mind to go off into a hyper-groundless “la-la” zone or a hyper-grounded contacted/limited zone. It’s an interplay. Groundless grounding. My mind-body is not going to wake up a chicken tomorrow, regardless of how much visualization I do. Similarly, I am not going to wake up tomorrow speaking fluent Chinese. That stuff is fantastical distractions. On the other hand, the idea that I’m a certain way due to conditioning and there is nothing to change that is too contracted and limited. The potential to re-condition the mind-body goes waaay beyond the standard belief structure. More and more revelations are being revealed. For example, scientists are figuring out the basic mechanics of how abuse/trauma alters epigenetic programming. They are trying to develop medicine to help reprogram the epigenetic pattern. Yet this is only one piece to the puzzle. There are other pieces. Psychedelics may help under certain conditions. Psychotherapy can be helpful. Yoga’ meditation, Shamanic Breathing and Reiki can be helpful to identify and release underlying blocks. There are lots of insights from others that are helpful. Yet one must also observe their own mind-body, observe and explore to reach the deepest levels and potential. Can others help you with this process? Yes. It is an extremely important component- others can help reveal stuff that the individual cannot. Yet, it’s an interplay and balance. Don’t get too dependent on the views/experience of others, yet don’t dismiss it either. One must also observe their own beingness to reach depth. There are teachers and insights within your environment, yet also teachers and insights within you. They are extremely wise and profound. Imagine the wisdom of teachers with millions of years of experience conditioned into your brain-body. The brain-body has conditioning of anxiety and fear, yet this is just one aspect. It is much deeper and broader.

Notice the structure of the underlying dynamic: ”This is how it is” ”No, this is how it is” ”You are an idiot” ”No, you are an idiot” I find it fascinating that this dynamic can play out between two minds, and also within one’s own mind. I’ve experience mental activity in which the above plays out within my own mind. An internal dialog of opposing views debating with itself to figure out the truth. Yet that truth is like a slippery fish that keeps getting away. That is the underlying nature of dualism. Upon closer inspection, dualism is untenable. Nuances will keep revealing itself. A mind may debate with others or itself in an effort to maintain a simple binary dualistic view without getting any closer to a sense of resolution due to the inherent groundless nature of being untenable.

Yea. ime, images generally arise from wants and not-wants. Underlying desires and fears. In particular, a desire to feel grounded and secure. Yet sometimes imagination of what “IS” seems free of wants. That seems like a really juicy area of exploration to me.

It feels like an interplay between sense, nonsense and post-sense. In this case here and now, flowing and enjoyable. In other cases, this type of thing can feel confusing and unenjoyable.

That is a dynamic that keeps a mind in a contracted state. One can add anything to the second half of that statement. Whatever they add will keep the mind in a contracted state (assuming a dualistic mindset). Notice how the mind flat out says “I don’t need to explore any further”. That is as hardcore as a mind can get against expansion. Think about visiting a foreign country and after two days saying “I’ve seen it all, I don’t need to explore any further”. There is always more to explore. There is infinite exploration. This is what makes ISness so magnificent and magical.

@Nahm