Forestluv

Just an idea that popped up. . . You say that happiness isn't anywhere but right here. Would you say that happiness is something that appears and disappears right here? Or is happiness always right here?

To me, it seems like this is beginning to transcend "suffering". In addition to inquiring "who is the one who suffers?", one could inquire "what is suffering?". Without a "one who suffers" is there suffering? A big part of inquiry for me is allowing empty space and observing what arises. When I am actually suffering, what is it? What the heck is the substance of suffering in my direct experience? What you wrote about re-directing attention can lead to insights, ime. It is taking the view of an observer. When there is observation, what is revealed? When my mind and body is experiencing suffering, what does a detached observer view? One dynamic is a very strong desire not to be experiencing what is being experience Now. That isn't necessarily a "bad" thing, yet it is a dynamic. There is a strong desire to not be Now-ing in the Now-ness of Now. A desire to make it stop, a desire to change it, a desire for relief. This can manifest in many ways. The mind-body may feel anxiety. It may want escape. It may lash out at others. Ime, it is extremely difficult to enter a transcendent awareness of Now when the mind-body is in suffer-mode. The last thing my mind-body desires is Being Now. . . Yet if one can access it, there is a very deep realization of absolute Peace. Unconditional Peace. It's deeply profound, yet super hard to access ime. My mind-body is more oriented toward conventional feel-good peace. The type of peace that comes when the body is relaxed, feeling bliss and loving now. Thats an awesome space, yet that is a conditional peace that is dependent on circumstances.

@thinlizzy1978 Most of my trips have not gone into the types of realms you have been describing. I've had a few of these astral realm experiences, in particular with Ayahuasca. Also a few trips with past lives themes. I think it's an intriguing area to explore. Perhaps try a different psychedelic environment. I think the environment at the Ayahuasca ceremonies helped draw me into other realms - such as the music, singing and collective energy. It seemed to draw in spirits. . . I also became much more sensitive to psychedelics over time. As if I became more open, curious and willing to let go. I also think allowing imagination to flourish and merge with realness is helpful. Last summer, I worked on lucidity and had mild entry into other realms through dreams and awake. For example, by laying under a tree or by a lake for hours - just staring. Or through shamanic breathing. . . .Yet taking something like Aya or DMT would be a springboard.

Ime, my mind wants to contextualize a psychedelic trip into a an experience with meaning. There's nothing wrong with that, yet I've learned to become aware of it. If one takes a psychedelic with the mindset "this psychedelic will show me god", one needs to be careful of this filter. If one sees machine elve's during the trip, then machine elve's become god. If one sees fractals during a trip, then fractals become god. If one sees radiance in a tree, that becomes god. Yet there is also something transcendent to these contextualizations. The mind is conditioned to perceive in subject-object. . . I (subject) saw fractals (object) during my (subject) trip (object). Thus, those fractals (object) represent god (object). This is an external god relative to my internal perception. There is another layer in which subject-object dissolves into beingness. This beingness can be expressed infinitely. Those fractals are god, yet so is the duck on the pond. God isn't limited to some realm "out there". God is also Here and Now.

I wouldn't frame it as "non state" either. Yet "non state" is a realization, relative to "state". Ime, it's an important realization because the mind realizes a contrast to "state". You also seem to be exploring other realizations as well. I would also say the realms you speak of carry a lot of deep insights. Notice how difficult it is to discuss. We are both using the term "it", yet there is no "it", yet there is also an "it". This is one of the limits of language. Any word/image we use is not another word/image. For the mind to hold any word/image there must be form. You seem to have a lot of curiosity about different realms, meditation and psychedelics. Have you tried psychedelics? If not, are you curious to try it?

@thinlizzy1978 Of what you wrote, this is the closest, ime. Yet I would drop the "their mind" part. There is simply the ISness of entire universe. You are universe. The other stuff is contextualized add-ons and unnecessary, imo. Yet as humans we love to create experiences, stories and share them with our fellow humans. Story creation and story telling is beautiful. Yet, immersion/attachment/identification/seeking of stories can also be distracting to the ISness "prior/beneath" the stories. Your posts seem oriented toward using psychedelics to access some type of state or destination somewhere out there. Psychedelics can certainly be used for that and it can be quite insightful. Psychedelics can also help us to return to Here and Now.

This thread has run it's course. Guys: don't sexually objectify women in this sub-forum.

It doesn't matter. What matters is it is a HUGE chest size and TINY waist size. Exactly! Nobody does!!!

60cm = a 23.5 inch waist. Going by the chart, that would be a size of -3 (negative 3). . . So attractiveness is a woman with a size negative 3 waist and size double D chest. . . Please. . . .Totally absurd. Unfortunately, many young women have to deal with this type of delusional male standard of attractiveness. That would be like saying attractiveness for a male is 6'6'' (2m) tall, 50'' (125cm) chest and 4% body fat.

This is all second-order conceptualizing. That's fine. Yet there is something prior to these concepts. You can get a taste of it right now if you are able to let go of "Yeah, but. . . ". Look around you right now. . . How do you know it's Now? . . Notice that any answer you give is second order. It comes after the Knowing. You may say "Well, I know it's Now because I can touch things". That's second order. You just Know it's Now. You don't need any evidence. The Truth of Now is prior to any evidence or thought stories you create in your head. You've never asked for evidence that Now is Now. You just Know.

Welcome to the forum. You got a good look at nonduality and "high conscious" integrative awareness/thinking. . . . Integrate what you can. Be mindful of over-contextualizing and trying to make sense of it all. It is at a "higher" level than intellect. You essentially got direct experience that is worth many years of spiritual work. Yes. Mixing high doses of two intensely neuro-active compounds as a teenager in this setting with little experience is risky and irresponsible. You are fortunate that things worked out ok and "you got away with it". Things aligned for you and you were given a gift. Yet be careful with psychedelics going forward. They are very powerful at high doses.

This is an old thread that has run it's course. Don't make a mockery of the work by turning threads into dick measuring contests.

You are describing a relative manifestation of love. There is nothing wrong with that. It is beautiful and true in a relative context. Yet it is not absolute Love. Absolute Love transcends species survival. Absolute Love Loves human extinction just like it Loves human thriving. It is an Unconditional Love. It is not an emotional type of relative love, yet it includes emotional relative love because Unconditional Love Loves everything Unconditionally. It's like you have a map of Paris and are asking "How is Paris not Europe?". . . To realize the answer, one would need to go meta on the Paris map. Yet you keep coming back to the contracted map and saying "Yea, but what about the Eiffel Tower? How is that not Europe?". . . I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm not saying Paris isn't Europe. I'm saying Paris is within Europe. One would need to let go of the Paris map to see that (yet there is nothing wrong with the Paris map - it has relative value. It is just contracted). Similarly, scientific models of the brain and love are within Love.

I recently had the priviledge to attend a presentation of Deej Savarese. He is a non-speaking autistic. As a child, he was rejected by his biological parents as being damaged. He went to a foster home in which he was abused, ostracized and stigmatized. Later in life, he was adopted by loving parents. He learned how to develop friendships. He became the first non-speaking autistic to graduate from a U.S. University. He is now a poet, philosopher and advocate for neuro-atypical people. At the beginning of the talk, I felt a lot of sympathy and compassion for him. He seemed like an inspiring person that overcame a lot of adversity. . . Yet as the presentation went on, my consciousness shifted. The presentation started off with Deej's poetry. It was amazing. Deej's consciousness is more oriented toward non-duality than duality. His poetry expressed nonduality in a way I've never heard a nonduality speaker explain it. Then they played prepared remarks from Deej in which he spoke of the interface of real, unreal and relative reality. Again, I've never heard it described like this and I realized he had something very special. Not in a "special person with a disability" kind of way. In a genius kind of way. What he was describing was just out of my reach. It was a nonverbal realm that Deej was trying to express verbally to us and I just couldn't quite access it. After the presentation, I went to the stage and stood by Deej. There was a deep connection I wanted to make with him, yet I didn't know how to put it into worlds. I stood there trying to speak a question, yet I couldn't. Now I was non-speaking. I got frustrated and wanted to cry because I couldn't do it. I knew I was close, to meeting him somewhere yet I couldn't do it. Then Deej gazed in my eyes and we went there. His skills where higher than mine and he brought me there. We gazed in each others eyes for a minute and were a somewhere that was beautiful love. Neuro-atypical people have certain skills that are unique. Unfortunately, cultures create a "Myth of Normal" in which those that appear different are labeled as "abnormal" and are ostracized/stigmatized. Yet more and more people are waking up. There are some low conscious people out there, yet there are also some people that are waking up and have a higher capacity to love. https://www.deejmovie.com/

Are you referring to a relative personal self love? Or a transcendent Self Love? . . . In the context of a relative personal self love, the scientific explanation you offer seems reasonable. Perhaps it may have practical value for a person. If it helps someone, super! Someone else may say that self love is about opening oneself to healing energetics and massage. In a relative context, that also may have value at the personal level. If it helps someone, super! There are also "trans-personal" states in which the orientation is not to meet self-centered desires, since the self has been transcended. This transcendent love is super as well. It's all Good.

Yes, it was dry powder. I had to drink some water to get it down. There was so much of it. I felt bloated and moderate discomfort for about a half hour. This reminds me of a interview I saw with Jerry Garcia - the guitarist for the Grateful Dead. Jerry was talking about some of his experiences with LSD and music. He was asked "What was it like tripping on LSD during a concert?". . . Jerry replied "Tripping during a concert is awful. . . because I'm not allowed to stop playing". . . I was like "omg, I totally get that".

"Spiritual Cultural Heritage" is also relative. I'm not disagreeing with you. You are pointing at an essence I am acknowledging. There is an essence of spiritual tradition - an essence of spiritual cultural heritage. If that resonates with someone, awesome. If it doesn't resonate with someone else, that's awesome to. In the future there may be purge-free synthetic 5-meo retreats that are super chill. No purging. No convulsions. No flopping around. Some people may resonate with that. Others may not resonate. They may think "This 5-meo synthetic retreat feels fake to me. There is no spiritual cultural heritage here". For such as person, super. They can find a traditional Ayahuasca retreat with spiritual cultural heritage. . . I would say there was spiritual cultural heritage at the Aya retreat I did in Peru. Yet for me, the purging just didn't resonate with me. For me, the spiritual cultural heritage was more about the beautiful ethereal music, the love, the collective energy, the herbs burned, eating fruit together after the ceremony, integrating lessons the next day and deep conversations with community members. The surrounding mountains. The mysticism of the Sacred Valley. A sense of timeless tradition we were all a part of. Yet for me, the purging just wasn't a big part of it. It was distracting. . . .Yet you have a different relationship with purging and have a different resonance with spiritual cultural heritage. That's totally fine. No two people are the same.

@Kiko Impermanence may or may not involve attachment. I participated in a meditation group for years and grew close to a lot of the members. One time during a walking meditation, I realized this is impermanent. This building, sangha, friends and teacher will be gone. There was an essence deep sorrow of impermanence, yet there wasn't attachment. My mind and body simply experienced the essence of deep sorrow within me and floating around the room. It was a mystical experience. Since then, the meditation group has dissolved and several members have passed away. . . There can also be impermanence with attachment. One time I was with my gf. The relationship was coming apart. We were having dinner one time and I realized that I was the one holding our relationship together. She just wasn't into it. During dinner, she said she wanted to switch from monogamy to open. I then realized this was the end. We just weren't on the same page and resonating anymore. Then impermanence entered. We had so many magical and loving experiences together and I could sense it's ending. There was realization this may be the last time I see her. There was a deep sorrow. Yet in this case, my mind and body wanted to hold on. It didn't want to let go. There was attachment. I tried to change her mind, which I couldn't. Then I agreed to try an open relationship - although my mind and body said not to. I was attached.

"Spiritual" is relative. You are defining "spiritual" as purging. It is spiritual if you create it as such. There is nothing wrong with that. Similarly, the snake pit people may say that the spirit entities only come when people are in terror getting bitten by snakes as they trip. In that relative context, that is what spiritual is. Some may want to preserve the snake pit tradition. If so, that's fine. There are lots of tribal ceremonies that involve extreme pain and suffering. Ime experience, I would not consider the purging spiritual - except for one spiritual insight I had. For me, Mother Aya was not associated with the vomiting and diarrhea. It was more like Mother Aya was taking me along a journey and then all of a sudden my digestion system blows up and I'm like "Oh shoot, Mother Aya. Sorry about this, yet I've got to use the toilet for a bit - can you hold on?". . . Of course, I wasn't thinking in those terms during the ceremonies, yet the purging was a distraction. . . Or it would be like hiking toward Machu Picchu and you find out the chocolate candy bar you just ate was actually a diuretic. This would be very distracting to the Machu Picchu experience. It would be a major bummer. . . Again, this is just my experience. Others may embrace the purging. If so, go for it!

I've taken dilaudid twice. Dilaudid is the strongest opiod and similar to heroine. Ime, dilaudid was a mystical experience of bliss (even in a hospital setting). Yet it is extremely addictive.

Of course. Training is just another term for "conditioning" or "programming". The human mind is "trained" since childhood. The mind's beliefs, interpretations, self construct are all "training". A major component of spirituality, personal development and therapy is to un-train the mind and re-train it.

I don't disagree with that. Imagine that are psychedelic retreat leaders and we have two options: 1) A pure psychedelic without an added purging agent and 2) A pure psychedelic with an added purging agent. I'm not saying #1 or #2 is necessarily better. If someone wants to do a traditional spiritual/medical cleansing process with purging, then do option #2 with the purging agent. Go for it. Vomit and have diarrhea - cleanse away! The point is that Ayahuasca is stuck with the vomiting chemical and does not have the option without it. From what I saw in the Ayahuasca retreat, my hunch is that shamans would likely appreciate the option of removing the purging agent. They may not admit this and old-school shamans may insist on using traditional Ayahuasca, yet my hunch is that if given the option, some shamans/leaders would start using the purge-free Ayahuasca at some ceremonies. Perhaps one ceremony per month. I think this would get more and more popular - such that most ceremonies would become purge-free. There would still be special "spiritual cleanse" ceremonies in which the purging agent isn't removed. Yet, I don't think this would be the popular ceremony. . . Ayahuasca ceremonies are absolutely beautiful, yet the purging is just not needed (except for special "spiritual cleanse" ceremonies. Yet I could see having special "spiritual cleanse" ceremonies with the purging agent. . . . The purging can be very stressful and painful to the body. I bet 98% of participants would choose a purge-free trip. It's just another way of looking at it. Imagine in an isolated area, a tribal ritual was to have people trip in a snake pit. This was the only type of tripping ceremony available. Tripping meant going through terror and suffering. Then one day, someone asks "What if we had psychedelic ceremonies without the snake pit? Perhaps we could play music and sit around a campfire and trip without getting devoured by snakes?". This would be a radical idea in the tribal tradition and would face resistance. Yet once they trip the snake-free ceremonies, there would be no going back. Yet they may still have occasional "terror and suffering cleanse" ceremonies with the snake pits. Perhaps that would become a "rite of passage" ceremony for teenage tribal members entering adulthood.

Sounds like an enlightened being with HPPD.

The hard part of mescaline cacti for me was the amount that I needed to ingest. It's hard to get down without water, yet if you add too much water - it expands and I felt bloated. Yet once I got it all down, there was moderate discomfort in my gut for about a half hour, then things settled down. The trip lasts a long time. There is a very gradual come-up and a very gradual come-down. Also, it wasn't possessive at all. It was like an all day affair in which I could "leave and take a break for a bit" if I wanted to - and then return to the mystical experience. It was always present, yet I never felt forced into it. . . .San Pedro is the only psychedelic I've done with that dynamic.

I did an Ayahuasca retreat in Peru and that is what the shaman told us before each ceremony. That the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea was an integral part of the process that helps one expel negative energy and move them toward healing and purification. This was the prevailing view of all long-term members of the community. Ime, the vast amount of insights and realizations had nothing to do with the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea. Mother Aya was communicating with me and the purging was a distraction. During the retreat I may have had 50 insights, realization and I would say only one was directly related to vomiting. The first ceremony took a huge physical toll on my body. There were two days between ceremonies and I barely recovered. I almost had to pull out of the second ceremony. As much as the shamans say this is an integral part of the spiritual journey, I am not convinced. For example, if they discovered tree bark that removed the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, I bet they would start adding in the tree bark while making the Aya brew. Not only is the purging physically stressful, it is a practical nightmare. The temple wrecked of vomit and diarrhea. The toilets area was gross. During the ceremonies, someone occasionally knocked over a vomit bucket. There were cleaning staff that obviously didn't enjoy cleaning up the mess. It was a very unpleasant part of the retreat and I think if coordinators could maintain the trippy part of Aya and remove the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, most would. In the future, there will be synthetic 5-meo retreats that involve awakenings without the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea. That's fine if it is a natural part of the awakening process. Yet psychedelics like Aya will induce nausea/vomiting/diarrhea regardless of any self disgust. One could have no disgust and be violently hurling. Imagine having a pure psychedelic that does not induce vomiting. Someone may take the psychedelic and naturally have disgust arise to which they vomit. That is a very different dynamic than a person taking the psychedelic and a second chemical that induces nausea and will make them vomit - regardless of whether or not disgust is present. The question is: why would someone take the extra vomit chemical? Why not just take the pure psychedelic?. . . I could see specific cases when someone has the intention of inducing vomiting to remove negativity. Yet this would be rare cases. As a general practice, adding in a vomiting chemical is counter-productive.