Forestluv

For me, the dosage of 5-meo stimulates different flavors of trips. I'm comparing a relatively low 5-meo dose to dilaudid below. My trips with dilaudid was when I was in a hospital with a kidney stone. The first was the most profound. The nurse didn't drip through an IV - she shot it into me all at once. There was a wave that overtook me and I was like "Whoa. . . what was that?". . . I immediately loved it. And not just for the cessation of physical pain. Everything was ok. No problems, no worries. No nothing. There was pure bliss in the moment. There was no place in the world I would have rather been than that hospital room. It was like taking a trip to Bora Bora and being on the beach getting a massage. Yet even better. The energy was peace, bliss and love. Time stopped. It was deeper than a simple feel-good pleasure. There was an essence of bliss, peace, love and Now. A few years later, I tried 5-meo for the first time - a low/moderate dose. After reading reports online, I had some anxiety about the impending ego death. Yet it wasn't like that at all. There was a little bit of resistance and letting go. Then there was a surreal peace, bliss, love and connection,. It was very different than any psychedelic trip I've had. It reminded me more of the dilaudid trip years ago. I thought "That's what heroin is like" (even though I've never done heroin). Then I got online and started reading about people's experience with 5-meo and heroin. There are actually forums with people talking about 5-meo and heroin trips that were using 5-meo in the same context of heroin. I understood. . . . Later, I watched a documentary on Janis Joplin and all her turmoils. There was a part about her addiction to heroin and how it was the only thing that could get her to "that place". I felt like I knew that place Janis went to. I would say there are similarities at low/moderate 5-meo doses. There is a presence of being absolutely ok in the present moment that is a form of bliss. Its hard for me to describe this essence of Now-ness. . . Differences: there was zero resistance, anxiety or discomfort with dilaudid. It was pure wonderful. As well, there were cravings afterward for more. Even after one exposure, my body wanted more and my mind was scheming to get more. My mind thought maybe I could convince them to give me a dilaudid prescription. And I was willing to pretend my symptoms were worse to get a script (I didn't get one). I think there is very high risk of dependency and addiction with dilaudid. With 5-meo, there was also a mind-body craving that I never experienced with psychedelics. This gave me concern. Yet the craving wasn't as intense as with dilaudid. I think because 5-meo wasn't quite the same type of bliss. 5-meo also a bit of physical and mental discomfort with it during the comeup.

I think this may be entering an area of relative and absolute happiness. For me, relative happiness is a pleasurable state of being. That type of relative happiness appears and disappears. I can do some things activities to invite it's appearance, yet it's not something I can turn on or off at will. All sorts of feeling appear and disappear: feelings of fatigue, hunger, grouchiness, joy, curiosity, confusion, love, attraction, annoyance etc. They come and go. Yet through the practice and process of letting go, healing, realizations, my mind-body is much more relaxed, present and content with Now that it used to be. Yet I would say that there is also a deeper form of happiness that is always present and can be accessed. Yet it's not limited to a giggling feel good kind of happiness. I remember about a year ago, I was listening to some sad music. Sad songs just kept coming up on my Pandora station. Each song was about loss and sorrow. Like the loss of a loved one. Outside it was raining. It's like I felt the sorrow of so many human beings. Yet not like a suffering sorrow. The other side of true sorrow is true joy. They are two sides of the same coin. The reason the singers could experience so much sorrow is because they experienced so much joy. It was so beautiful. I spent hours in beautiful sadness and I had no reason to be sad. It had nothing to due with me. And I didn't want to be anywhere else in the world. I wanted to be Now with this music and rain - with this human experience. . . . Later that night, I told my gf about it and she immediately said "Oh no! That's too bad. Let's do something to change the way you feel and make you better". She didn't get it. This sadness was transcendent to my own personal suffering. There was an underlying peace, beauty, love and connection to humanity about it. In a way, it was "happy", yet not in a relative giggling happy way. . . This type of happiness of presence seems to be always present. It's like being Now and wanting to be Now. During the sadness, there is no place I would have rather been than Here and Now experiencing what I was experiencing. That is a deep form of happiness to me.

That's beautiful. It reminds me of a time I was out in nature feeling happy. Then I thought "why am I happy?". I didn't have a reason. Like you said, I realized how much of my happiness was dependent on external events. "As soon as I get a gf, I will be happy.", "I soon as I finish this semester of classes I can be happy", "If I was on a beach in Costa Rica, I could be happy". It's like I had "rules" for my happiness. . . . So here I was just sitting in nature with no reason to be happy, yet there was happiness. And it just wasn't my happiness. I was also sitting within happiness around me. It felt free to me. It was beautiful.

I think Anand speaks eloquently on this theme of billionaire altruism. In particular, billionaires that launder themselves through donation for their greater benefit. I like how Anand makes clear that it's not about the donation itself. The donation itself is fine. It is using the donation to cloak oneself that can be a problem. For example, a billionaire CEO at JP Morgan may donate 10 million dollars to a charity, which is wonderful. Yet that 10 million dollars is a trivial expense to the billionaire and he may get a lot of mileage out of it. The billionaire could promote an image of himself that is altruistic as he his manipulating poor people with toxic loans. The shady behavior of the billionaire may inhibit his access to politicians and tax policy. The politician is just too uncomfortable to meet with such a shady billionaire. Yet, a 10 million dollar donation to an orphanage provides enough cover that could give the billionaire access to the politician and allow him to alter tax policy in his favor. Anand speaks about this early in the interview. He doesn't hold back at all. It's awesome.

Just an idea that popped up. . . You say that happiness isn't anywhere but right here. Would you say that happiness is something that appears and disappears right here? Or is happiness always right here?

To me, it seems like this is beginning to transcend "suffering". In addition to inquiring "who is the one who suffers?", one could inquire "what is suffering?". Without a "one who suffers" is there suffering? A big part of inquiry for me is allowing empty space and observing what arises. When I am actually suffering, what is it? What the heck is the substance of suffering in my direct experience? What you wrote about re-directing attention can lead to insights, ime. It is taking the view of an observer. When there is observation, what is revealed? When my mind and body is experiencing suffering, what does a detached observer view? One dynamic is a very strong desire not to be experiencing what is being experience Now. That isn't necessarily a "bad" thing, yet it is a dynamic. There is a strong desire to not be Now-ing in the Now-ness of Now. A desire to make it stop, a desire to change it, a desire for relief. This can manifest in many ways. The mind-body may feel anxiety. It may want escape. It may lash out at others. Ime, it is extremely difficult to enter a transcendent awareness of Now when the mind-body is in suffer-mode. The last thing my mind-body desires is Being Now. . . Yet if one can access it, there is a very deep realization of absolute Peace. Unconditional Peace. It's deeply profound, yet super hard to access ime. My mind-body is more oriented toward conventional feel-good peace. The type of peace that comes when the body is relaxed, feeling bliss and loving now. Thats an awesome space, yet that is a conditional peace that is dependent on circumstances.

@thinlizzy1978 Most of my trips have not gone into the types of realms you have been describing. I've had a few of these astral realm experiences, in particular with Ayahuasca. Also a few trips with past lives themes. I think it's an intriguing area to explore. Perhaps try a different psychedelic environment. I think the environment at the Ayahuasca ceremonies helped draw me into other realms - such as the music, singing and collective energy. It seemed to draw in spirits. . . I also became much more sensitive to psychedelics over time. As if I became more open, curious and willing to let go. I also think allowing imagination to flourish and merge with realness is helpful. Last summer, I worked on lucidity and had mild entry into other realms through dreams and awake. For example, by laying under a tree or by a lake for hours - just staring. Or through shamanic breathing. . . .Yet taking something like Aya or DMT would be a springboard.

Ime, my mind wants to contextualize a psychedelic trip into a an experience with meaning. There's nothing wrong with that, yet I've learned to become aware of it. If one takes a psychedelic with the mindset "this psychedelic will show me god", one needs to be careful of this filter. If one sees machine elve's during the trip, then machine elve's become god. If one sees fractals during a trip, then fractals become god. If one sees radiance in a tree, that becomes god. Yet there is also something transcendent to these contextualizations. The mind is conditioned to perceive in subject-object. . . I (subject) saw fractals (object) during my (subject) trip (object). Thus, those fractals (object) represent god (object). This is an external god relative to my internal perception. There is another layer in which subject-object dissolves into beingness. This beingness can be expressed infinitely. Those fractals are god, yet so is the duck on the pond. God isn't limited to some realm "out there". God is also Here and Now.

I wouldn't frame it as "non state" either. Yet "non state" is a realization, relative to "state". Ime, it's an important realization because the mind realizes a contrast to "state". You also seem to be exploring other realizations as well. I would also say the realms you speak of carry a lot of deep insights. Notice how difficult it is to discuss. We are both using the term "it", yet there is no "it", yet there is also an "it". This is one of the limits of language. Any word/image we use is not another word/image. For the mind to hold any word/image there must be form. You seem to have a lot of curiosity about different realms, meditation and psychedelics. Have you tried psychedelics? If not, are you curious to try it?

@thinlizzy1978 Of what you wrote, this is the closest, ime. Yet I would drop the "their mind" part. There is simply the ISness of entire universe. You are universe. The other stuff is contextualized add-ons and unnecessary, imo. Yet as humans we love to create experiences, stories and share them with our fellow humans. Story creation and story telling is beautiful. Yet, immersion/attachment/identification/seeking of stories can also be distracting to the ISness "prior/beneath" the stories. Your posts seem oriented toward using psychedelics to access some type of state or destination somewhere out there. Psychedelics can certainly be used for that and it can be quite insightful. Psychedelics can also help us to return to Here and Now.

This thread has run it's course. Guys: don't sexually objectify women in this sub-forum.

It doesn't matter. What matters is it is a HUGE chest size and TINY waist size. Exactly! Nobody does!!!

60cm = a 23.5 inch waist. Going by the chart, that would be a size of -3 (negative 3). . . So attractiveness is a woman with a size negative 3 waist and size double D chest. . . Please. . . .Totally absurd. Unfortunately, many young women have to deal with this type of delusional male standard of attractiveness. That would be like saying attractiveness for a male is 6'6'' (2m) tall, 50'' (125cm) chest and 4% body fat.

This is all second-order conceptualizing. That's fine. Yet there is something prior to these concepts. You can get a taste of it right now if you are able to let go of "Yeah, but. . . ". Look around you right now. . . How do you know it's Now? . . Notice that any answer you give is second order. It comes after the Knowing. You may say "Well, I know it's Now because I can touch things". That's second order. You just Know it's Now. You don't need any evidence. The Truth of Now is prior to any evidence or thought stories you create in your head. You've never asked for evidence that Now is Now. You just Know.

Welcome to the forum. You got a good look at nonduality and "high conscious" integrative awareness/thinking. . . . Integrate what you can. Be mindful of over-contextualizing and trying to make sense of it all. It is at a "higher" level than intellect. You essentially got direct experience that is worth many years of spiritual work. Yes. Mixing high doses of two intensely neuro-active compounds as a teenager in this setting with little experience is risky and irresponsible. You are fortunate that things worked out ok and "you got away with it". Things aligned for you and you were given a gift. Yet be careful with psychedelics going forward. They are very powerful at high doses.

This is an old thread that has run it's course. Don't make a mockery of the work by turning threads into dick measuring contests.

You are describing a relative manifestation of love. There is nothing wrong with that. It is beautiful and true in a relative context. Yet it is not absolute Love. Absolute Love transcends species survival. Absolute Love Loves human extinction just like it Loves human thriving. It is an Unconditional Love. It is not an emotional type of relative love, yet it includes emotional relative love because Unconditional Love Loves everything Unconditionally. It's like you have a map of Paris and are asking "How is Paris not Europe?". . . To realize the answer, one would need to go meta on the Paris map. Yet you keep coming back to the contracted map and saying "Yea, but what about the Eiffel Tower? How is that not Europe?". . . I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm not saying Paris isn't Europe. I'm saying Paris is within Europe. One would need to let go of the Paris map to see that (yet there is nothing wrong with the Paris map - it has relative value. It is just contracted). Similarly, scientific models of the brain and love are within Love.

I recently had the priviledge to attend a presentation of Deej Savarese. He is a non-speaking autistic. As a child, he was rejected by his biological parents as being damaged. He went to a foster home in which he was abused, ostracized and stigmatized. Later in life, he was adopted by loving parents. He learned how to develop friendships. He became the first non-speaking autistic to graduate from a U.S. University. He is now a poet, philosopher and advocate for neuro-atypical people. At the beginning of the talk, I felt a lot of sympathy and compassion for him. He seemed like an inspiring person that overcame a lot of adversity. . . Yet as the presentation went on, my consciousness shifted. The presentation started off with Deej's poetry. It was amazing. Deej's consciousness is more oriented toward non-duality than duality. His poetry expressed nonduality in a way I've never heard a nonduality speaker explain it. Then they played prepared remarks from Deej in which he spoke of the interface of real, unreal and relative reality. Again, I've never heard it described like this and I realized he had something very special. Not in a "special person with a disability" kind of way. In a genius kind of way. What he was describing was just out of my reach. It was a nonverbal realm that Deej was trying to express verbally to us and I just couldn't quite access it. After the presentation, I went to the stage and stood by Deej. There was a deep connection I wanted to make with him, yet I didn't know how to put it into worlds. I stood there trying to speak a question, yet I couldn't. Now I was non-speaking. I got frustrated and wanted to cry because I couldn't do it. I knew I was close, to meeting him somewhere yet I couldn't do it. Then Deej gazed in my eyes and we went there. His skills where higher than mine and he brought me there. We gazed in each others eyes for a minute and were a somewhere that was beautiful love. Neuro-atypical people have certain skills that are unique. Unfortunately, cultures create a "Myth of Normal" in which those that appear different are labeled as "abnormal" and are ostracized/stigmatized. Yet more and more people are waking up. There are some low conscious people out there, yet there are also some people that are waking up and have a higher capacity to love. https://www.deejmovie.com/

Are you referring to a relative personal self love? Or a transcendent Self Love? . . . In the context of a relative personal self love, the scientific explanation you offer seems reasonable. Perhaps it may have practical value for a person. If it helps someone, super! Someone else may say that self love is about opening oneself to healing energetics and massage. In a relative context, that also may have value at the personal level. If it helps someone, super! There are also "trans-personal" states in which the orientation is not to meet self-centered desires, since the self has been transcended. This transcendent love is super as well. It's all Good.

Yes, it was dry powder. I had to drink some water to get it down. There was so much of it. I felt bloated and moderate discomfort for about a half hour. This reminds me of a interview I saw with Jerry Garcia - the guitarist for the Grateful Dead. Jerry was talking about some of his experiences with LSD and music. He was asked "What was it like tripping on LSD during a concert?". . . Jerry replied "Tripping during a concert is awful. . . because I'm not allowed to stop playing". . . I was like "omg, I totally get that".

"Spiritual Cultural Heritage" is also relative. I'm not disagreeing with you. You are pointing at an essence I am acknowledging. There is an essence of spiritual tradition - an essence of spiritual cultural heritage. If that resonates with someone, awesome. If it doesn't resonate with someone else, that's awesome to. In the future there may be purge-free synthetic 5-meo retreats that are super chill. No purging. No convulsions. No flopping around. Some people may resonate with that. Others may not resonate. They may think "This 5-meo synthetic retreat feels fake to me. There is no spiritual cultural heritage here". For such as person, super. They can find a traditional Ayahuasca retreat with spiritual cultural heritage. . . I would say there was spiritual cultural heritage at the Aya retreat I did in Peru. Yet for me, the purging just didn't resonate with me. For me, the spiritual cultural heritage was more about the beautiful ethereal music, the love, the collective energy, the herbs burned, eating fruit together after the ceremony, integrating lessons the next day and deep conversations with community members. The surrounding mountains. The mysticism of the Sacred Valley. A sense of timeless tradition we were all a part of. Yet for me, the purging just wasn't a big part of it. It was distracting. . . .Yet you have a different relationship with purging and have a different resonance with spiritual cultural heritage. That's totally fine. No two people are the same.

@Kiko Impermanence may or may not involve attachment. I participated in a meditation group for years and grew close to a lot of the members. One time during a walking meditation, I realized this is impermanent. This building, sangha, friends and teacher will be gone. There was an essence deep sorrow of impermanence, yet there wasn't attachment. My mind and body simply experienced the essence of deep sorrow within me and floating around the room. It was a mystical experience. Since then, the meditation group has dissolved and several members have passed away. . . There can also be impermanence with attachment. One time I was with my gf. The relationship was coming apart. We were having dinner one time and I realized that I was the one holding our relationship together. She just wasn't into it. During dinner, she said she wanted to switch from monogamy to open. I then realized this was the end. We just weren't on the same page and resonating anymore. Then impermanence entered. We had so many magical and loving experiences together and I could sense it's ending. There was realization this may be the last time I see her. There was a deep sorrow. Yet in this case, my mind and body wanted to hold on. It didn't want to let go. There was attachment. I tried to change her mind, which I couldn't. Then I agreed to try an open relationship - although my mind and body said not to. I was attached.

"Spiritual" is relative. You are defining "spiritual" as purging. It is spiritual if you create it as such. There is nothing wrong with that. Similarly, the snake pit people may say that the spirit entities only come when people are in terror getting bitten by snakes as they trip. In that relative context, that is what spiritual is. Some may want to preserve the snake pit tradition. If so, that's fine. There are lots of tribal ceremonies that involve extreme pain and suffering. Ime experience, I would not consider the purging spiritual - except for one spiritual insight I had. For me, Mother Aya was not associated with the vomiting and diarrhea. It was more like Mother Aya was taking me along a journey and then all of a sudden my digestion system blows up and I'm like "Oh shoot, Mother Aya. Sorry about this, yet I've got to use the toilet for a bit - can you hold on?". . . Of course, I wasn't thinking in those terms during the ceremonies, yet the purging was a distraction. . . Or it would be like hiking toward Machu Picchu and you find out the chocolate candy bar you just ate was actually a diuretic. This would be very distracting to the Machu Picchu experience. It would be a major bummer. . . Again, this is just my experience. Others may embrace the purging. If so, go for it!

I've taken dilaudid twice. Dilaudid is the strongest opiod and similar to heroine. Ime, dilaudid was a mystical experience of bliss (even in a hospital setting). Yet it is extremely addictive.

Of course. Training is just another term for "conditioning" or "programming". The human mind is "trained" since childhood. The mind's beliefs, interpretations, self construct are all "training". A major component of spirituality, personal development and therapy is to un-train the mind and re-train it.