Emerald

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Posts posted by Emerald

  1. Posted

    1 minute ago, aurum said:

    I agree with that. My dad had some anger issues so I have a bit of familiarity. 

    I still think you're downplaying the actuality vs potential aspect though.

    With the level of work that I've done on integrating my own anger at this point in my life, I'm not as attracted to guys who have no control over their anger as much as I was in my teens and early 20s.

    Though I still would have to watch out if I found myself single again... as these anger repression patterns run deep in me. And I haven't fully integrated my ability for expressing anger. 

    So, I tend to be attracted to more subtle expressions of anger in men... where I can semiconsciously  sense the potential for it. And that's where attraction can arise, where I just hear the potential for anger in his voice and it comes through in his facial expressions.

    But of course, being in a relationship with these subtle anger guys... would include all the overt anger that he is filtering out of the public persona. So, I'd have to watch my attractions to those subtle anger expressions if I were single and looking.

    But the moment anger and aggression is expressed in a more direct way, I just lose attraction as I can recognize it as a lack of emotional control.

    But when I was younger and I had my anger more deeply repressed, I was attracted to more overt expressions of anger. Like, I was really interested in rock guys when I was a teenager for this reason... as there was a lot of aggression and violence that got expressed through music.

    I was also attracted to more emotionally uncalibrated angry guys because I hadn't seen the weakness in it yet... and I was partially attracted to the weakness of anger/emotional volatility.

  2. Posted

    2 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

    I know I fall outside this category - but to me it shows an inability to conduct themselves.

    It communicates they are incapable of being effective in the world without force.

    Stoic leverage is what I look for.

    Sign of immaturity that most women are attracted to anger - but I see your point confirmed frequently 

    I suspect that that's most women who fall outside of this category, as anger issues show a lack of emotional maturity and that the man is controlled by his emotions. 

    It's really only the case for those who already have the familial patterns to pre-dispose them to that attraction, like myself. 

    And it tends to be that chronically angry people are that way because they feel chronically powerless. So, it's like this sense of trying to control but not being able to and ramping up the anger into tantrum because they feel so out of control.

    And part of the unconscious boons that I got from being with an angry person in the past is that I got to feel like the stoic rock that was more in control... while my partner was always falling apart. And I could help glue them back together because I was stoic and emotionally flat enough to do so.

    Like, my first relationship as a teenager, the whole dynamic was that he'd have a total tantrum meltdown... and I'd be the glue that put him back together with my unconditional presence and ability to absorb his tantrums.

    It was kind of like being a mother to a very fussy baby. So, there was a power and dominance that I felt in the dynamic by being the emotionally stable one.

  3. Posted

    2 minutes ago, aurum said:

    Only potential?? 

    I agree that anger is not always attractive. It can be socially damaging, immature, out of control or otherwise problematic. But it is not just potential that women are attracted to.

    Yes, 99.9% of the time... it's the potential. It really depends on how it's being expressed and how much control the man has over his emotions.

    Like, if a guy is participating in a combat sport (like boxing) and he's being super aggressive in that context, that's attractive to most women.

    Or if a man is in a situation where he must be protective in some way and expresses aggression to do so, that's also attractive to most women.

    But if a man is just shooting off at the mouth all the time and picking senseless fights and can't go a full day without a tantrum or meltdown, then most women are not attracted to that. And that's what it's like to be with a man with anger issues. There's never any peace to be had as it's always about walking on eggshells to keep a meltdown from happening.

    So, most women are not attracted to this.

    That said, because of my familial patterns, I have to watch out. Because of my familial patterns, I'm often attracted to emotionally volatile tantrumers who are like my mother. So, I have to ignore those attractions because once a relationship gets going with such a guy, I end up losing attraction altogether because the guy is just emotionally out of control... and the relationship becomes hellish.

    And I end up having to repeat the pattern of being the emotionally stoic, even-keeled one who never gets angry (like my father). And I don't enjoy that. 

    But most women are attracted to men who have the potential for aggression but who only express that potential in the correct contexts... as that shows a sense of control over one's emotions and the capacity for stoicism.

    For women with my familial patterns with one or more angry parents, we have to watch out... lest we end up with an emotionally immature tantruming toddler for a partner.

  4. Posted

    2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

    In a nutshell: agree.

    Have / had my attraction pattern, too. Women that are great human beings but also give a vibe of "I need to be saved/ I don't love myself enough / I am not enough to be loved". So I subconsciously had the idea of "maybe I am the one that can help change that?" (Short answer: No)

    As a friend pointed out, it's a family dynamic I copied from my parents. And the friend luckily also pointed out that obviously, nobody can save anyone, you can only save yourself. 

    Knowing the childhood story of my parents it's understandable that they had this kind of dynamics and individual adaptation to their respective family system. Happens. In another post, someone said "you're half your dad and half your mum" - so I guess it's "normal" that we subconsciously copy our parents behavior, it's in our genetic code as soon as we are born + growing up watching them. We can only change what we are aware of...

    Took my dad long time and three marriages to - more or less - loose that savior pattern, I am optimistic I can do that earlier! :D Re my mother I don't know it seems a bit more work in progress, but there is movement. There is still time, I'm optimistic she will make a leap as well very soon 

    So, for anyone reading this, my advice is: get to know your (grand-) parents and their story as much and as soon as possible! Might save you a lot of energy and bad experiences. And to go full circle with the OP - it's likely to lead to happier dating :)

     

    I got hit with that one too!

    Part of the anger suppression dynamic that I adopted when I developed my adolescent identity was about avoiding being like my mom (who tends towards anger, judgment, and emotionality with iron-clad boundaries who takes no shit from anyone) and being more like my dad (who never gets angry and is a kind, non-judgmental, and stoic person BUT with incredibly poor boundaries). Side note: I always thought it was an ironic coincidence that my parents were the most polarity opposite people in this way. But now that I know attraction tends to operate this way, I understand why that polarization is there.

    And my dad has this whole Christ complex thing where he wants to see the good in everyone and everything. And he's always been super generous and wants to help everyone all the time.

    And when I was 12, I wanted to avoid being like my mom as much as possible as he was like this stoic cowboy guy who was just super kind and cared for all people and animals. And I modeled my identity off of my dad... and wanted to be the most chilled out, most kind, and most stoic person ever... like I saw him.

    And with that came this savior Christ complex self-sacrifice dynamic. And it helped me avoid the association with Femininity, anger, and cruelty... which I saw as synonymous at the time.

    So, I have had a tendency towards poor boundaries and self-sacrifice and the feeling of obligation to save others until the past 5ish years ago. 

    And in my first relationship (in my teen years), I was trying so hard to rescue and save him. But he kept running his life and my life into the gutter non-stop.

    In retrospect, I'm pretty sure that he had undiagnosed BPD... and he'd go through these cycles of emotional volatility and anger. But I kept trying to drag him up the side of a mountain and sacrifice myself to help him, as that's what my values were that I learned from my dad.

    Also, my dad's savior tendencies have put him in an awful position now... as it puts him in a position to be taken advantage of by others. And he has this "I don't express anger" identity, so he gets roped into all sorts of patterns with unsavory characters.

  5. Posted

    2 hours ago, aurum said:

    Most women will be attracted to anger in men. 

    Most women will be attracted to the potential for aggression in men... but not anger. Anger shows that a person is a bit emotionally unstable.

    So, that's definitely not true for most women.

    I have an attraction to guys who have their anger up at the surface because my mom tends towards anger. And this caused me to go into opposition to my own anger and repress it in order to avoid being like her.

    So, when I see a man (or woman) with a tendency for their anger to be close to the surface, I feel either an intense attraction or intense aversion towards it. And that's because I want to re-integrate my own anger (Side note: It's a big part of the reason why I come to this forum, as it feels like a safe place to express anger... only through intellectual sparring.)

    And in the relationships that I've gotten into with angry men, it eventually just annoys me until I lose attraction altogether. So, it's an attraction that I have to disregard because I can't sustain to the attraction to it over time.

    I am also attracted to men (and women) who have similar anger-suppression tendencies to me, as there is some desire there to help them unlock their anger. I think it's because I have a really hard time accepting my suppressed rage.

    So, helping another person connect to it and express it is like a vicarious way to experience it myself.

  6. Posted · Edited by Emerald

    1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

    Maybe you can do that easily, or maybe your circle of friends. You would be surprised how often I have seen or heard the opposite. 

    There's a guy that I know, he created the term "fakeship" as strategy to keep women engaged, faking the intention of entering a relationship with them. He simply figured out what signals to give to so that the women believe he's genuinely interested. And he's a not  a unique case.  Remember another guy that had his own stories. And then this happens once or twice to a woman and then we have the fuck up we seem to have in today's dating world.

    Needless to say, the guy I'm talking about is a) not happy himself and b) has his own story (trauma) that keeps him from entering deep emotional connections 

    Lots of women have familial patterns that set them up for these kinds of dynamics.

    So, while most women won't be vulnerable to this kind of thing... the women who have patterns in childhood that make them susceptible to trickery like this can end up in these unfortunate circumstances.

    Of course, I have my own familial patterns. I tend to be attracted to men who are either angry all the time or struggle with expressing anger. And that's reflective of my mom and my dad respectively... where I polarized in the same direction as my dad, with difficulty expressing anger.

    So, I have been susceptible to that pattern... and find men with anger issues (in either direction) attractive.

    But I'm not very susceptible to this type of objectification and duping pattern. I've never had an issue finding a partner who's really serious about me and loves me.

    I can sense immediately the type of guy who would do that kind of manipulation, usery, objectification, and duping, and I'm not attracted to that vibe.

    And that's how women without trauma around those patterns will relate to such a guy. It will automatically give off an icky sleazy vibe.

    But icky sleazy vibe will be attractive to a woman whose parent(s) had the icky sleazy vibe who objectified her and devalued her. And that guy will be a projection screen that she can use to repeat the patterns from childhood.

    The same thing is true for men as well, of course. All human beings develop attractions based on familial/familiar patterns.

  8. Posted

    3 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

    @Emerald I love some women laugh, small details like that eheh

    For the physical aspect, let's say that my brain will systematically eliminate girls with less than 5/10, then there is an automatic preference for a higher "score" but that is not the most important thing.

    That's what people tend to do... they automatically eliminate people who are a standard deviation (or more) less attractive than they are.

    They, they'll go for whoever they're attracted to and have chemistry with.

    And of course, good looks draw people in.

    But a healthy mentality about it is to find someone that you find attractive who "hits the bar" and then see if there's deeper connection to be had.

    The beauty glutton is one who simply tries to maximize the attractiveness of his sexual partners in a conquesting kind of way. And he won't feel content with a woman of his level of attractiveness, even if he theoretically could find her attractive if he wasn't so fixated on aiming for perfection.

    Often times, this kind of guy is just seeing very beautiful women as the judges for his own worthiness as a human. And he can't project that kind of authority to judge his worthiness onto ordinary-looking women.

    So, he isn't interested in them (even if those women are more attractive than him) because he doesn't feel like they have the power to validate his existence as worthy.

    But of course, that guy isn't ready to be in a relationship because he wouldn't be able to relate to the woman he's with as a person.

  11. Posted · Edited by Emerald

    20 minutes ago, aurum said:

    How do you distinguish between a beauty glutton versus someone who is attractive and also just wants an attractive partner?

    First off, a person who is attractive and just wants an attractive partner could also be a beauty glutton. I worked with a perfect 10 of a guy who's wealthy and attractive... but he was still a beauty glutton as he couldn't appreciate in a woman that which wasn't ideal beauty-wise and otherwise. To clarify what I mean, there was always this sense that the grass is greener elsewhere.

    But it's really a guy with a conquest mindset about women and beauty, where he's always trying to get the most beautiful woman he can get... and often focuses towards expanding towards an abundance of ideal-looking women. 

    Contrast this with a guy who meets a woman he happens to find attractive and then sparks up a genuine human-to-human connection with that woman.

    It's essentially the maximizers versus the satisficers... where beauty gluttons are maximizers that are always trying to expand and expand towards more and more ideal options. And he thinks about women only in relation to physical beauty and neglects the emotional connection element.

    And he will not want to contract his options. He will want to continue conquesting and expanding his beauty options.

    For him, the way he thinks about dating is "I'm going to go try to attract a 10"... as opposed to "I'm going to meet a woman that I find attractive and see if there's chemistry and connection."

    And this kind of man is on a mission towards maximization of perfection and idealism in his life because he can only recognize beauty in the perfect and ideal... which creates a beauty starvation in him, since he can only see beauty in its most obvious forms.

    So, he is not one that's able to recognize the beauty of that which is imperfect. So, he chases ideals non-stop because of his starvation for beauty, as he needs to seek relationship with beautiful women to even sense beauty at all.

    He is one that is not able to sacrifice his image of the ideal woman for relationship with a real woman. And all women are imperfect and have the disgust factor associated with being a human being with a human body.

  12. Posted · Edited by Emerald

    57 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

    Unfortunately, as a heterosexual guy with 1000 testosterone, my sexual biases will inevitably flare up if I'm sharing my outlook on women.

    Yeah this is something I've wrestled with.

    The ideal scenario is that my partner ages gracefully. Which means I'll have to filter for someone who invests in longevity and personal health.

    But even then, by the time she's 80 she will be a crusty saggy grandma. At that point, we'll have to bank on my testosterone crashing lmao. Just cut my nuts off at that point.

    That's precisely why I recommend to women to sort beauty gluttons from consideration. They're not longterm husband material.

    Men who are overly focused on a woman's physical attractiveness won't be able to find beauty in her as she ages. And one woman will never be enough for him, because he is a devourer of beauty.

    He will not see her as his beautiful wife that he loves and adores. He will only see her as a crusty old grandma that he tolerates for company while pining for 25-year old women at the age of 70.

    And life for the woman will be fighting against the inevitability of time removing her lovability in the eyes of the beauty glutton old man... and knowing she's only loved and adored for an archetype that she only inhabits for 10-20 years of her life. 

    And she will get no romantic or sexual satisfaction from a man who can only appreciate the springtime of a woman on the most beautiful days... but cannot find beauty in the winter. It's like being a fine wine that cannot be appreciated by those who only have the palate to appreciate grape juice.

    The fact of the matter is that beauty gluttons cannot appreciate the beauty of the maiden, mother, and crone. So, he is an unwise partner to procreate with as he cannot appreciate the beauty of a woman (as the woman is always maiden, mother, and crown all at once)... as a woman is only a maiden for a short time.

    If you reject the crone, you reject the maiden... and the maiden will reject you.

  13. Posted

    2 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

    + 1

    Finding beauty in the non - obvious is a true skill for living a fulfilled life. Women are an obvious topic, but it goes deeper than that. Much deeper. 

    "And if a man who only appreciates the beauty of the most beautiful women, he probably won't be a good longterm partner. And that's because, even the most beautiful women all eventually look like little old ladies."

    Yeah realizing that is very important IMO. During many dates I feel women checking me out:  "Does he REALLY like me? Will he still like me when I am older? Will he go and hunt younger, more attractive women?"

    This check is valid but it needs balance. At some point, you just need to let go and do it. Because from my perspective this fear can also keep women from truly connecting. It then becomes a game of "instead of taking a risk I rather retreat, stay cold and don't open up for true connection. If I never fully commit, I will never be left for a younger woman, thus avoiding pain"

    For me it seems it happens typically subconsciously. Fear of not being loved for who I am. 

    What's left is often a lose-lose for both men and women. 

    Honestly, it's pretty easy to sort out beauty gluttons as there are many tells that come through in their vibe and the way they carry themselves... as well as the way they relate to your physical appearance as a woman.

    You can immediately tell when a guy is really into you or just scrounging around for a beauty conquest.

    It's not something that most women have to over-focus on to sort out. It's just a discordant vibe that doesn't feel very good.

    Most women are unattracted to this vibe.

    But for women who are used to being objectified and mistreated, they can develop some blindspots to this type of guy. And the familiarity of it can attract them.

  14. Posted

    3 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

    According to you, classical beauty is a simple childish flavor that we must evolve past to appreciate more complex mature flavors. But this only works in the case of food sustenance because sweetness is overabundant and the de facto taste. The movement from simple sweetness to complex non-sweetness is only virtuous in relation to the oversaturation of sweetness. Our tongues already know of sweetness. And if that's all we have, then our experience is 1-dimensional. Thus we seek multidimensional experience and ween off of pure sweetness.

    With regards to classical feminine beauty, the script is flipped (from the male POV). No guy starts out with a 10 on their dick. In fact, likely your first few partners will be very average in looks. It's moreso the case that the defacto oversaturation is precisely "complex obscure flavors." you will be enjoying bitterness and saltiness and spiciness and sourness far before you ever stumble onto a single droplet of honey.

    You are downplaying the rarity of good looking people. By your own definition, if the virtuous move is to expand your pallete and shift towards a more multidimensional experience, then it is precisely classical feminine beauty that ought to be sought. 

    For your metaphor to hold - to seriously claim that a movement away from sweetness is virtuous - men would first have to experience drowning in fine shyt (aka beautiful women), and only then would a movement away from classical beauty towards more complex flavors be considered growth. But almost no man is in this category.

    I understand that the feminine will instinctively recoil at what I'm saying, because this is threatening stuff. You will feel that I am wrong and/or oversimplifying.

    That's not what I'm saying at all.

    Beautiful people are rare, and it is totally fine to appreciate the beauty of beautiful people. In fact, it's the most common thing in the world to appreciate the beauty of beautiful people.

    Every man, woman, and child naturally does appreciate the appearances of beautiful people.

    And it isn't about virtue at all. I'm not making a moral argument. 

    It's about what it truly means to be an appreciator of beauty in the sublime sense. And it's not necessarily less virtuous to fail to appreciate beauty in the sublime sense.

    But to frame appreciating the looks of beautiful women as somehow about having a sophisticated or refined taste and as "being an appreciator of beauty" is just silly, as it pretends towards having a connoisseur's palate and to pass one's self off as having refined and uncommon taste... when finding attractive women attractive is the most common taste in the world.

    The appearance of a beautiful woman is literally the most popular flavor of appearance in the entire human species.

    And true refinement of taste and appreciation of beauty requires one to acquire tastes for more challenging flavors of experience (beyond human iterations of beauty). And enjoying the looks of beautiful women is as easy as enjoying a delicious crowd-pleasing dessert.

    But if a man has no appreciation for beauty outside of the most attractive women, it's a sign that he has a dulled palate for beauty and won't be able to find beauty in any other place but a beautiful woman. (To be clear, it's not that people with refined palates for beauty don't find beautiful people beautiful. But they can find sources of beauty everywhere.)

    And if a man who only appreciates the beauty of the most beautiful women, he probably won't be a good longterm partner. And that's because, even the most beautiful women all eventually look like little old ladies.

    So, it's important to find a man who can recognize beauty beyond its most obvious forms, and to sort beauty gluttons from consideration. That's especially true for very beautiful women.

  15. Posted · Edited by Emerald

    @Joshe Regarding what you mentioned above about positioning 'only being attracted to 9s and 10s' as "appreciating beauty" as though it's a sophisticated thing that signals some kind of exceptionality of the guy claiming that...

    First off, you're 100% correct. That's exactly what gets communicated.

    But this notion that the other poster said about "appreciating beauty", is actually the opposite of what sophistication is... and the opposite of being an appreciator of beauty.

    Sophistication means developing a rarer ability for appreciating beauty and enjoyment in contexts that less mature palates can't detect.

    So sophistication of taste requires acquiring a taste for disgust... and requires a challenge to find a deeper expression of beauty within that disgust. And the way that the Yin and Yang of things works is that the most beautiful of all things can only be found in disgust as "the diamond in the rough."

    Consider how, when we're babies, we only have a natural taste for sweet flavors. In fact, breast milk tastes almost exactly like the milk that's left over after you eat Fruit Loops... uncannily so.

    And all else that isn't sweet tastes like poison to babies and small children... and brings up disgust. So, the child's palate must be trained to mature to appreciate more "disgusting" tastes like bitter, sour, savory, salty, spicy, etc.

    And most of us eventually acquire these tastes, and we find the deliciousness in what we once were disgusted by... not even recognizing that it's the disgustingness of these flavors that make foods delicious.

    Then, an even more refined adult who has trained their palate to appreciate even more disgust can appreciate great wine and pick up on all the subtle notes. 

    So, the more disgust a person can appreciate and find beauty and deliciousness in, the more refined their tastes are. And they are able to appreciate beauty and deliciousness on a more sublime level, beyond those who can only appreciate pure sweetness.

    And if we bring this into the topic of physical beauty. Let's say that the most beautiful woman in the world is like near-perfect sweetness. A beautiful woman's appearance is easy to appreciate for men, women, and children alike.

    But this enjoyment of beauty on this most obvious level is not challenging... and doesn't go very deep. 

    One must refine their palate to appreciate the disgusting elements of the human body (and the world at large) to truly realize a deeper and more sublime realization of beauty.

    Think of it like an artist that finds beauty in painting a portrait of an old person with all sorts of interesting lines and wrinkles on their faces. Or a person who can visit a barren wasteland and find beauty. Or a musician that can find a greater realization of beauty in their music through incorporating some discordant notes into a song.

    That's the mark of a true sophisticate who really appreciates beauty.

    But finding a beautiful woman beautiful and saying "I'm only interested in 10s" and that they can't find beauty in an average woman is admitting that they haven't acquired enough of an appreciation for disgust to truly recognize and appreciate the beauty of a woman... or anything at all. And even the actual beauty of the 10 will go un-noticed.

    That's why I recommend for women to sort men from consideration who can't appreciate or understand beauty beyond its most obvious forms.

    What they believe is an appreciation for beauty... is actually indicative of a near-blindness to beauty.

  16. Posted

    2 hours ago, aurum said:

    I agree with that advice.

    Yeah, the mindset of guys who are very focused on searching out the most physically attractive woman, is not conducive to a feel good relationship for either partner. That's why I recommend watching out for tells that a guy is too focused on the physical element of attraction and to sort them from consideration.

    Men who are overly focused on looks are like devourers of beauty... and are not capable of actually appreciating beauty beyond the most obvious expressions of it. They really just see beauty as pure functional utility and nothing more than that, which prevents them from truly appreciating or understanding beauty.

    And it's genuinely dangerous for women of all levels of attractiveness to get into relationships with these guys.

    For a very attractive woman, these beauty gluttons won't really care about her and will just use her and eventually leave her for a younger hotter model. (And when you're attractive as a woman, you just get tons of spam attention from these kinds of guys. So, the more attractive a woman is, the more it behooves her to get really good at identifying and sorting these guys from consideration.)

    And for women who are average or unattractive, beauty gluttons won't value these women at all, as people. But they will settle for these women when the more attractive women reject them, and they're lonely. And these guys will resent the average women for not being up to their standards.

    Mind you, most beauty gluttons are not attractive or successful themselves.

    They're usually average or below-average looking guys with high looks standards for women. And many of them are just looking for a validation of their own worthiness via interpreting sexual validation from a woman as synonymous with their own worthiness as a human.

    So, the latter dynamic can happen between a woman who's a 6 and a beauty glutton who's a 4 will get into a relationship... and the 4 will resent the 6 for not being a 10.

    But even if this 4 were to get a 10, the 10 still wouldn't be enough... because it's about variety and conquest for more beauty consumption.

    And similar to how a man might open a bunch of tabs to flip between porn videos to maximize his pleasure through variety (which is fine)... a woman who ends up with a beauty glutton, will be faced with the impossible task of trying to be a variety of ideally attractive women to keep the beauty glutton interested.

    And she will fail to be every attractive women, and he will always be disappointed in her.

    Even a perfect 10 is not enough for a beauty glutton... as she can never be EVERY perfect 10 in the world. She can only be one perfect 10.

    Until he grows out of that phase, he will never be pleased with the woman he's with because there's always a more beautiful woman. And the woman will feel very unfulfilled sexually and emotionally in such a relationship dynamic because women need to feel like the man adores her to feel secure and to open up sexually.

  17. Posted

    34 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:

    This can't be true. The root Chakra which is below the hear Chakra is not a feminine chakra

    The Root Chakra is Feminine... as are the Sacral and Solar Plexus Chakras.

    The Feminine is related to physicality and Earthliness. The Masculine is related to the intellectual, non-physical, and spiritual.

    The same is true in all archetypal systems.

    For example, the Feminine elements are Earth and Water (the physical tangible elements)... while the Masculine elements are Air and Fire (the non-physical intangible elements).

    Consider why we call the Earth "mother"... and you will understand why the Root Chakra is Feminine.

  18. Posted

    1 hour ago, Joshe said:

    Well yeah, but none of this is a problem for these guys, and of course they're the exception to most of what I've been saying.

    For everyone else, I believe people should be content getting in where they fit in and just letting that be that. If you wind up punching above your weight, great. Punching down, no problem if it makes you happy. But if you're a 6, sure, you can aim for a 10, but don't have it as some unrealistic standard or grand prize that you constantly chase. My claim is this is pathological/unhealthy.

    It just seems immature/unhealthy that grown men would take such a pursuit seriously. These pickup guys suggest investing thousands of hours into honing these skills. This is an absurd waste of time and life. And all in the name of "appreciating beauty". I don't buy it. Even if I did, I would hard disagree on this as a way of life or serious hobby. Seems hedonistic and weak, like you got your priorities all messed up.

    Along those same lines, I tend to give the advice to women, "Sort men from consideration who can't appreciate your beauty."

    And for men who are like, "I'm only into 10s", it's a tell that he can't appreciate most women's beauty. And sex will just feel awkward with him because you'll feel his disappointment in you. He'll always be looking to leave you for someone better.

    That's why most women don't like to date men who are perfect 10s because the guy will only find beautiful a woman who's as attractive as him.

    But add to that, a guy who is a 4 or a 5 who says "I only date 10s"... and you have that same unsatisfying dynamic... plus he doesn't have the attractiveness either.

  19. Posted

    It sounds like the main issue is that you get anxious in these dynamics and freezing up because you're too attached to the potential outcomes and reading too much into the experiences as a doorway to those outcomes.

    The trick is to just recognize that these women are regular people and carry on as normal... and spark up conversation like you would with some person you don't find attractive at all.

  21. Posted

    People are mostly attracted to one another because of disowned parts in themselves that they see in the other person.

    So, attraction is certainly partially physical. But it's mostly psychological and emotional when that attraction is strong enough to yield a longterm relationship. And the physical attraction is just the initial threshold for the deeper attraction takes hold.

    In this case, I could see that most women probably wouldn't feel comfortable with this dynamic and would be a deal-breaker for them.

    But I can see that they have chemistry together and are on the same wavelength. And other than some paralysis of his mouth, he's not a bad-looking guy in terms of facial attractiveness.

    Like, if you look at them both from the neck-up they look like a relatively average couple.

    So, I can certainly buy that it's a real relationship that started with mutual attraction. 

  22. Posted

    29 minutes ago, Joshe said:

    Lol, nah. I actually look goofy AF for the most part. I could look like a 6.5 or 7 in certain light with a hat (I'm bald with a weird shaped head) while in my prime, but even this might be too high. Girls were attracted to me when I was younger, but they all report it wasn't so much my looks as it was my demeanor, attitude, mystic, allure, or whatever. 

    TBF, I did have a leg up. My leg up was being a natural at reading people and their perceptions, thus knowing how to come off, and using subtle non-verbal communication to lure people in. Also, largely smiling, laughing, coming off as a confident, safe, fun, easy-to-approach person who looks like could engage them in an interesting conversation. All of this has to be balanced perfectly, and I just understood it intuitively, so that was my leg up.

    HealthyGamer isn't particularly attractive and he reports the same eye contact escalation that I've always noticed. 

    Typically, what's attractive about a man in the eyes of most women is just exactly what you describe.

    It's the guy's energy and vibe... and his focus towards just enjoying the moment and being himself.

    And if a guy is intuitive and emotionally intelligent with an even-keeled warm demeanor, that's the entire battle.

    It really is just him showing that he's pro-social and normal... and giving off the vibes of his authentic personality, which throws out a subtle signal into the environment that a sizable minority of women will be attracted to.

  24. Posted

    1 hour ago, Joshe said:

    IME, this is precisely how it's always worked. You catch a girl looking or she catches you, then someone looks away. It happens again until it's known, then comes initial comms. It's how girls let you know they want you to talk to them. It's in like every movie ever, no? 

    That's been my experience as well.

    Though, it usually takes me 2-3 months of platonic interaction for me to develop feelings that are deep enough to feel compelled to do something about them.

    But it's usually been a slow-burn of gradually escalating signals and sub-communication from within an otherwise platonic context.

    And I honestly can't imagine a woman preferring the more direct approach that pick-up guys do, as it immediately cuts all anticipation and sexual tension from the dynamic by making the sexual intention explicit from the get-go. 

    Yet again, they may not necessarily care too much about the woman's preference in this way. They're likely just focusing on their own sexual goals... and whatever works for them is what works. So, fair enough.

    And I had some hook-ups when I was in my early 20s after I got out of my first relationship. And there was nothing interesting about them. 

    These experiences were very emotionally under-stimulating. And the enjoyment of sex is 2/3 emotional for me and only 1/3 physical.  So, there was just no "there" there.

    But I think a lot of the guys who do pick-up might be under the impression that women agreeing to have sex means that she prefers whatever works to get her in bed. It's one of the side-effects of the cultural narrative around women being hyper selective and picky.

    So, many guys seem to think, "Whatever method works to sleep with a woman is what is highly valued by that woman and equally or superiorly preferred to other methods of escalating things sexually."

    But they seem not to understand this qualitative difference in terms of how women experience it. Either that, or (like I said before) they're just mostly focused on their own agenda to hook-up and don't focus so much on the woman's enjoyment of the experience as long as they're succeeding with their sexual goals.

    But that gradual escalation of sub-communication arouses a lot of lovely heart-centered feelings of intimacy and sexual tension over time. 

  25. Posted

    1 hour ago, Joshe said:

    Yeah, that's funny. It's like, dude, your hay day is over. Go home. Lol. Or at the least go hang by the bar and don't be imposing your old ass onto young women.

    I suppose it's different for guys though. I actually enjoyed women aged 35-50 when I was in my mid twenties. Many of them are happy to have flings with young guys, without demanding all the attention younger women usually require. They're much more fun too, as they're more mature, witty, and better at flirting and being sexy. They could actually teach me something. Thinking back on it, those were my favorite. When I was the one being picked up by an experienced woman. Highly recommend older chicks. 

    Well, that's a little bit of a different thing. I was actually VERY attracted to older men during the time of that club incident.

    So, while it's true that most women aren't attracted to significantly older men, I've been attracted to much older men since I was 20 years old and started to conceptualize of myself as an adult woman.

    And I still have a preference for older men.

    But when I was 20, it was a straight-up fetish to the point where I couldn't even find 20-something-year-old men attractive. I only was interested in guys who were 30+. (This is when I met my husband, who is 12 years older than me.)

    Right now (at age 36), if I were single, I'd still have somewhat of a preference for an age gap of 5-10 years. But I am currently capable of finding men my age attractive... and even a few years younger.

    But my fantasy when I was 20 years old was to seduce a fully mature and responsible man whom I knew in a platonic or professional capacity who's twice my age (early 40s).

    But a HUGE part of that age-gap kink was a craving for maturity... and to stress-test that fully grown man's maturity and resolve by using my sexual power over him as a young woman to put him in a values-conflict with his own instincts, where he is concerned for my welfare as someone so much younger than him but is struggling hard to resist being a big bad wolf.

    Something about the tension of that dynamic and seeing the conflict between his civilized nature and his animal nature play out in his facial expressions really pushed a button for me and made me feel this sense that my sexuality is powerful enough to turn a mature, warm-hearted, and responsible middle aged man into a ravenous beast.

    But this didn't work with just any older man... as maturity was the real craving.

    And I knew at that age that any 40ish year old man who's approaching (or preferring) 20-year-olds is very immature. So, those guys in the club were immature older guys trying to be youngsters. 

    But I wasn't even attracted to 20-year old men back then because of my craving for maturity. So, why would I want a middle aged man who's trying to act like a 20-year-old? They were just stripping themselves of the primary quality that makes a man attractive in the first place.

    So, I was typically un-interested when older men would approach me as I knew that approaching a 20 year old as a middle aged person was a tell about their character, maturity, and depth.

    But I also knew that, despite the fact that a mature man in his late 30s or early 40s would never approach someone my age (at the time) and would go out of their way to make sure I was feeling comfortable... I also knew that they'd be tempted and would probably eventually give in if I made advances toward them.