kieranperez

I would like to share the following PDF file which is a paper written by Ken Wilber back in the 70's on the developmental unfolding of consciousness (I would say mind rather than consciousness but any who...) and the 5 different types of unconscious. I get the strong sense that many people here truly just don't know what they're talking about and just going with modern and post modern social media slogans when they speak of "subconscious" or "unconscious" or "shadows" or "integrate" or whatever. This is paper I'm sharing is an effort to try and correct some of that lazy thinking as this stuff is very complex and I personally don't like to see something like this get dilluted and shallow and people miss a whole depth of understanding that needs to be had in order to truly get a solid grip of what exactly is going on when we're doing any sort of transformative practice regardless of whether it's meditative, psychoanalytic (highly recommend), psychedelics, somatic, all of the above, or anything else. With my finger wagging out the way, Ken Wilber has done a phenomenal job at actually categorizing different types of unconscious which is actually very helpful and clears up a lot of confusion among the different schools of psychology, particularly the psychoanalytic schools that began with Sigmund Freud, as there's a lot of disagreement about the status of the unconscious. I could go on but I'm tired of typing. Here ya go. https://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-11-79-01-002.pdf

It’s really good that you’re honest about that I wouldn’t be surprised if most people on this forum truly understand 5% of what’s actually being said. So that’s great you see that.

I can confirm the weird shady money tactics

@yannick wow... what a fucking trip. I remember when I was dangerously desperate I was in contact with Shunya about going down there and something, just through our email exchanged, seemed very off and I decided to never go down there. I definitely felt like he was grooming me and my desperation to escape the situation I was in as he was telling me how I'd be his apprentice and shit, do all this tapas, become an "atmanologist" and so forth. What really seemed off and fucked up was when I was told that, if I do decide to go down there, given that obviously I wouldn't be able to earn money if I was down there, I'd have to have my parents and any family members finance me while I was there but at the same time I noticed all his videos where he disparages the modern and postmodern family system. Which raised some alarm bells for me as that just seemed too out of integrity, conveniently manipulative for my own selfish spiritual endeavors, and so forth. I don't take Shunya to be dumb as he does seem very smart but, thankfully, you seem to have been smart enough to really be vigilant enough to have gotten your ass out of there. So I great job on that. That really is commendable. Thank you for sharing this.

That has nothing to do with 2nd tier. Wilber also sells that a bit much. I know people that work and know Wilber personally and part of that is kinda exaggerated. We’re maybe 500 years from a 2nd tier society, assuming we even survive.

there are many different possibilities behind why this is coming up that is very much unique to you that may not be as obvious as you think on the surface. First off, it’d be useful to know what kind of meditation you’re doing as “meditation” itself doesn’t really say anything. If you’re devoting a lot of time to say single pointed concentration practice where you unwaveringly, with great discipline, keep your focus on a single object such as the breath or a candle flame or a mantra or whatever unceasingly for a certain duration of time, it may just be the case that you’re mind is getting tired and exhausted as concentration practice can get taxing. Another common, yet hard to recognize, could be that it’s actually a psychosomatic symptom, that feels very genuine, that arises as a form of resistance because you actually, unconsciously, don’t want to do the practice. So it can be a subtle form of resistance. If it’s the former (cognitive fatigue), sure, resting after your sit can be just fine. That said, it could very much be the latter even if it really doesn’t seem like it. If it is something unconscious, you wouldn’t know would you? Should it be unconscious though, which usually takes feedback from a solid teacher to spot (since you can’t see your own blind spots otherwise they wouldn’t be blind spots) , I would highly recommend actually paying attention to what that resistance is saying. Decode it. Understand it. What does it want? For this I would recommend psychoanalysis should you be serious about dissolving the resistances on the spiritual path as they arise (and they will undoubtedly arise).

Arguably my favorite of them all. The image of Satan as the fallen angel. That which was once one with the Godhead and separated himself. The fact that the devil is also an angel. https://bible.wikia.org/wiki/Satan

I don’t think you know the profundity and depth of the question you just asked as it’s an incredibly deep and complex one. I’m going to make this a rather personal example as it’s a good example because it highlights how much this stuff is nowhere near as black and white as I seem most people tend to think. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area (1/2 in San Francisco, 1/2 in Marin County). I don’t know if you live in the States but here in the US our public scholastic system are really Amber (Spiral Dynamics value Blue) structures but in SF, interestingly enough, Green memetic values systems and world views have penetrated and permeated the framework of the school systems. Which - to leave a very important key point - I want you to notice that the infrastructure itself did not change. We have a scholastic system is 150+ years old that has not adapted and it’s a real problem. All that happened in the leading edge cities were that the dogmas and values and relational strategies from the administrators and teachers with the students changed to a more Green meme style. In any case, it’s true that, for an individual, there is no skipping of stages. That said... it’s not that simple. How skewed their development can be very much depends on the altitude of development of those a child growing up is relating to. There’s a big reason kids that grow up in Amber ethnocentric communities tend to be a bit more whole and embodied for their current stage rather than those that grow up in more complex leading edge social structures (such as San Francisco). This is because a child that may be at Red when they’re 3 or 4 years old may be growing up in this culture that, first of all, doesn’t at all understand stages of development, especially Green and so children actually have to end up learning to suppress and disown parts of very early childhood development to meet the needs and demands of a more advanced social structure that may have getting better met, ironically, in communities that are actually at lower stages. So people can actually be at Red, Amber, or Orange and still have the programming of a Green or even 2nd tier stage but it’s all interpreted from a lower stage. This is a huge problem. This actually part of the core issues regarding the complicated issues of mental health across different demographics across the map that are at different stages and makes things very tricky. I know spiritual people that talk like they’re Green but are actually Amber. This stuff is incredibly nuanced. I know of monasteries that are Green in their dogmas but Amber as far as their own personal egos. A lot more can and will be said about this stuff in the future but it’s an excellent question. You opened up Pandora’s box with that one.

One of the most succinct and powerful teachings I’ve ever gotten that’s paid dividends in following came from a Zen master I work with that touches on precisely this issue: You have to develop a healthy self before you let go and forget the self. And quite frankly, the degree to which you can transcend is the degree to which much of our character has been not only sufficiently integrated but also developed and healed. I’ve heard stories from this particular Zen master how he was on a retreat and how a participant actually broke into his sleeping quarters in the night, woke him up, and told him how he was growing a pussy and how happy he was because he could finally fuck himself. This guy eventually went into a full blown psychosis to the point where they were gonna call the police. They only reason they didn’t is because this guy was so unhinged they knew it would be a blood bath if they came. So they brought back through this rebirthing process. This shit is no joke and does happen.

Here's where I stand. Your work has not only changed my life and helped actually turned my life around but also helped lay the ground work to not give in to suicide when I was at my most suicidal. I ran into your work after being in a hospital and it showed me the way out such that I now have had several enlightenment experiences, my relationships are better than ever, I've turned around many of the things that I've been traumatized by since I was kid including things like ADHD by providing resources and outlets and also community to find what I've been looking for my entire life. Your work has provided me a community such that I've met people in person that have helped me turn my life around 180 degrees. When I came across what you had to say about psychedelics in the early days I was on 5-7 different psych medications that were destroying my very cognition to the point where I couldn't function anymore. I was taking 2-4 hour naps everyday, barely able to stay awake, could barely drive, and at my lowest point in terms of sheer hopelessness and depression. I trusted what you had to say about psychedelics and that you recommended a slow gradual approach and also how they are not safe to mix with SSRI's, mood stabilizers, and such substances. I trusted you and I actually got off all my meds and abandoned the system was doing more damage so I could try this route in order to get to the root of my own suffering and deepest demons. Turns out, by and large, through extensive research (which you recommended), trial and error, a careful methodical approach, it did help me with just that. However, like you also said, they were no magic pill in that I still had to follow up and do the heavy lifting. You provided resources to teachers, some of whom have become some my own teachers personally. If it wasn't for you, I don't know if I would've found them. I imagine not though. In March of 2020 I had my first spontaneous powerful kensho/satori where it was clear that no experience is ever enlightenment. So I do disagree with you when it comes to that. However, I've also seen you say that you are simply a gateway for newbies. That's what you were for me. I've also met plenty of other teachers (I just had dinner with one) that I disagree with about things they deluded about and I think you know a lot more on when it comes to society, government, mind, etc. Teachers and people in this work disagree in one fashion or another and it's expressed in about as many ways as there have been people. So I don't hold hard feelings like that. I think people are probably going to get lead astray if they just sheepishly take what you have to say, hear it, have some experience (psychedelic or otherwise) and taint whatever experience they have and lay some conceptual layering over it which is comprised of their interpretations they have of what you say based on what they create in their mind. I may think you're incorrect but they're responsible for their end. So I don't feel it's fair for me to fault you on that. Although I disagree with you about awakening I do think your contributions on psychology, development, and so forth is solid enough and I think you are of great service. I can nit pick but it's just nit picking. I think if you wanted to turn this thing into a cult you could've EASILY done that a long time ago. I find a lot of people on here are gullible (I was one for sure) and I think it really does show something about you, a guy with your kind online social presence and influence, hasn't gotten into more serious shit. I think it's a testament that you actually are committed to what it is you say you are. I don't consider you my teacher. To be honest you never were for me. You were a guy very similar to me, as far as I could tell from videos, which is extremely limited (for all I know you could have children chained to a radiator in your basement - assuming people in Vegas have basements...) that showed me the way, the path to what it was I looking for my entire life but didn't know it. And I will always be thankful for that. Anybody that says your video promote suicide can talk to me and I'll tell them to go fuck themselves. Make of that what you will.

Looks like shit is hitting the fan as the word gets out about his death

@Leo Gura l’m sure you’ve considered this but I would highly recommend you look into maybe creating safeguards around what you teach. I personally don’t agree with many of your newer teachings and approaches. That said, your work has undoubtedly saved many lifes and actually kept people from killing themselves. I say that because I am one of those people. I think you’re actually very clear on many of the things people take for granted. That said man, it might be wise to create some safe guards. For example, I know certain particular Zen masters that have very real and powerful siddhis that have talked openly about that stuff with me. However, they don’t share their more advanced teachings except for those that have demonstrated they can be trusted and have earned those teachings through merit and hard work. This is true for virtually any school or lineage. Of course, that’s not really how you have established yourself but putting yourself out there for the kind a things you have to say to the general public has dangers that I imagine might backfire on you in a few years. Although this is the sort of second coming of the psychedelic renaissance, its also introducing psychedelics to a culture that is utterly clueless and stupid about many of the things you, myself, and (hopefully) many others on this forum do our homework on. This project failed with the boomers that were 2.5 times less narcissistic (there’s a 2013 Time magazine study that goes into this) than millennials (god help Gen Z). Quite frankly I don’t trust the responsibility and the power that will be in the hands of these people, regardless of whether or not this movement gets co-opted by corporate interests (which, as far as I’m concerned, it probably will). And I imagine a lot of people have their target set on you so it might not be the best strategy down the road. Just something to consider. Like I said, I may disagree with some of your stances in terms of spirituality and what not, but by and large you seem like a guy who has his head on straight and god knows your worked literally saved my life so I’d hate to see you go down. Best of luck in navigating this.

Jumping off a bridge is not fucking mahasamadhi ?? This is not a “conscious death” where one is entering a very powerful state of samadhi and transcends the traces of karmic bonds (which, even that is debatable). This is just suicide and a very irresponsible one at that as a result of needlessly confusing psychedelic states of mind with actual truth. That’s all that is. A reckless abandonment fueled by utter delusion. Best wishes to his wife and 2 kids.

It depends on what exactly it is you mean by that. First off having a 2nd tier stage development (which, depends as to which line of development you're talking about), as with any stage of any line of development, doesn't mean you don't have access to lower stages of development. You can be at adolescent level of development in terms of the maturation of your own ego but that doesn't mean that if you break your leg very badly in a skateboarding and have a compound fracture you won't experience some infantile sense of total helplessness if you're by yourself. Evolution is holonic and hierarchical and so you don't necessarily lose things that were gained at lower stages. You just build on top of them. So you can be at 2nd tier and still have an Orange shadow or aspect of your development (depending on which line we're referring to - there's no such thing as just "I'm orange" or whatever, that's a gross overgeneralization) that might be running a muck in your life based on certain addictions and allergies that might playing out for a variety of reasons which are usually specific and unique to each individual. That said, you can also be at say Orange or even Amber (Spiral Dynamics Value stage Blue) and be indoctrinated in a Green ideology. So the person's ego development may have Green programming but their actual ego development is really Orange or Amber. The cases you're talking about where there's a "regress" its usually one of two things: They were never at that stage to begin with. They merely seemed to be at that stage. They have sort of shadow acting out that is not conscious that reflects an addiction that can be mapped out and reflect something from a lower stage that was neither integrated nor developed.

This is all your projection. Go study with him in person rather than just make projections about someone. I couldn’t come up with a more accurate metaphor even if I tried. The moment that guy walked in the dojo I had the thought “oh shit, this guy really doesn’t have a feminine bone in his body.” I’ve heard tell from those that have been around him for a long time (some you might actually know) that that just seems to be a personal thing for him. Like there’s just some lack of basic human empathy (not in some moral sense) that doesn’t occur for him.

Devotion is a very powerful path westerners usually can’t relate to. That said... STAY AWAY FROM HARE KRISHNAS. IT IS A CULT. All because you can have powerful experiences under a certain group or organization doesn’t mean it isn’t a cult. Members of organizations like Isis have genuine powerful spiritual and even satori like experiences and are in rapturous bliss states when they do what they do. Hare Krishnas are a cult and as far as I can tell, a deluded one by and large. The founder was clearly enlightened and clearly nuts. Some of those guys seemed to have something going on but there’s plenty of documentation regarding the abuses that have gone on in that organization. I highly recommend you stay away from them. When an asshole gets enlightened all you get is an enlightened asshole. Some guys with cults, and they are a cult.

Although this is a book and could be put under the product reviews here, I felt compelled to share this here, given that it would like have more attention. Samuel Bercholz is an enlightened guy whose one of the cofounders of Shambhala Publishing out in Colorado. He studied under one of the very well known Tibetan adepts that came to the West during the 60s, 70s, and 80s, Trungpa Rinpoche. This book is an account similar to Dante’s Inferno where Sam shares about his NDE and his personal vision of the hell realms. It is a graphic account, which is to say that he actually hired artists to draw and actually express a display what he actually saw in these visions. There are differences as to the status of hell realms between traditions and also individuals. Sam doesn’t make any claims as to the actual nature and status of the hell realm itself but really goes in depth to communicate the qualitative characteristics of the beings that were found in hell realms and the experiential quality (texture if you will) of these different realms. Though his training was more in Tibetan Buddhism he doesn’t even ascribe this to be a depiction of Buddhist hell realms. To me this was smart and actually gives greater insight. We know that many of forms and deities that were created in yogic and Buddhist cultures often don’t tend to resonate with western minds because there’s no context for the Western European mind because there was no thousand armed god of compassion in those cultures. That said, the very qualitative nature of the form is the same. This is to point out that how we may experience hell realms or any such realm (assuming we do at some point in our life), the manifest content of such a realm may be contextual to our individual finite minds that pertain to the incarnation of the body mind that is having the experience. Which, as far as I can tell, is new and novel in the world today. You can get a copy of the book and audiobook here: https://www.amazon.com/Guided-Tour-Hell-Graphic-Memoir-ebook/dp/B01M9EMEO2/ref=sr_1_1?crid=LMS86LFWL88J&dchild=1&keywords=guided+tour+of+hell&qid=1621282828&sprefix=Guided+tour+of+%2Cdigital-text%2C218&sr=8-1

More posts like this please. Swaha.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka Very cool to see something like this is still around in the modern and postmodern world! Very cool to see mainstream examples of very healthy tribal traditions and customs to still have a space in our ever more complex world. Despite the fact that I grew up in a very secular, individualistic, and atheistic culture I can totally get why something like this really creates powerful healthy bonds between human beings. Plus the testosterone boost for this looks fucking savage.

Every sentient being (so long as we say there are sentient beings at all to begin) all play a role of victims, perpetrators, and rescuers. Every. Single. One. The motivation and function of being a perpetrator is not possible without having been a victim. The reality is, I can also just say that could be the karma of that particular animal. Saying you can't kill for sport is just your self biased view. The fact is is that you can. Ethics isn't purely determined by the actions you take by the way you experience it. The manifestation of one's ethics is very much based on one's point of view. Suicide bombers and terrorists experience tremendous states of ecstasy and bliss when they are doing what they're doing because for them from their smaller vantage point of perspective, based on their stage of development, what they're doing actually is ethical. And guess what? If you go back a couple thousand years ago when human societies functioned at an ethnocentric level at best, which was considered the leading edge at that time, similar sort of actions that we today in our world centric cultures call terrorism, would've lead such warriors to being considered cultural heroes because they actually were! Our society was only possible thanks to tons of rape and pillage, conquering, war, devastation, suffering, and also great innovations, leadership, etc. And guess what? Things are actually better thanks to this so called "immoral" function. Why? Morality and ethics are very much relative depending on the vantage point of one's perspective. Child sacrifice was actually considered very honorable at one point in history. The reality is, none of these views, and that's what they are, views, aren't really true in it of itself. I'm not saying or suggesting some dismissal of feeling your heart break open if you see factory farming or you read about the kinds of suffering animals go through in a laboratory. I am saying though that that is the reality in which we live. That is the case and it's not ultimately a matter of good and bad. Many of those animals that are tested on in a laboratory ground a way for us to create very helpful resources for the world such as various medicines. Being a human being is very complex. This binary view of ethics is just naive. There is great suffering in the world and no matter how "advanced" humans get, that will remain to be the case. Suffering and survival go together. They cannot and will not ever be separate (at least by and large). Yes they actually do. This has been known by yogis, shamans, etc. for thousands of years but even modern science no longer disputes this. Read up on Rupert Sheldrake's contributions on the matter. The fact that you think plants don't have a nervous system shows you're uneducated regarding basic biology. Plants do experience sensations. It's not "pain" in the way human beings conceptualize it as even human "pain" isn't really pain but is actually very much conceptual. However, they do experience sensations, and, depending on the plant, are quite sensitive to sensations and what they take in. Speaking about all individuals that follow this general food trend is not useful. Many vegans I've met (I live in San Francisco so I've met A LOT of them) are very ideologically driven and actually rather tribal regarding their view. Many vegans I've met also have rather shitty diets. Following a vegan diet doesn't at all mean you're necessarily conscious of the things we're speaking about or even following anything healthy. You can drink tons of beer and load up on all sorts of junk food, which, by your moralistic thinking, I could argue you'd be funding corrupt corporations that poison people with food coloring agents, preservatives, or you're paying for fruits and vegetables that were grown in completely unethical ways (see my first comment on this post where I point out, and you can do your homework on this, how even our "organic" fruits and vegetables that you buy at Whole Foods are still grown in very "insidious" ways). The reality is, this simplistic view of ethics and morals is just a circle jerk. Morality and ethics are very much relative have no reality beyond these views. It is not true in it of itself. So all these claims you're making as declarative truth statements don't hold water, ultimately. Again, I'm not suggesting you don't feel what you feel. I am saying though that our dispositions are just that, dispositions that are full of bias, conditions, deception, etc. that serve a particular agenda, namely survival. I also want to point out, again, that not everybody can even follow a vegan diet for various reasons. Vegan diets aren't healthy for everyone. Vegan diets isn't possible for everyone even in terms of convenience in regards to what their local markets have to provide for food. I am not fond of trophy hunting or anything like that. I would like it if that stuff could stop. That said, it should be here and does here. Why? Because it already does. That is the fact. To argue otherwise is to argue in favor of lies, fantasy, beliefs, etc. In other words, what's not true. There is tragedy in the world. That will remain. There is suffering in the world. That will remain. There is also comedic aspect to all of this too as well as a profound sense of beauty. The most rapturous insights regarding the beauty of everything is precisely because our world situation is so utterly complex, confusing, paradoxical, twisted, and so forth. That is the joke and the tragedy and they both go together. My challenge for you would be to view your ethics from such a vantage. Dare to be honest with yourself on both ends of that spectrum and not lie and say what you don't like shouldn't be the case because guess what, it already. Don't disown anything and do whatever you want.

Podcasts: Rogan Sam Harris Buddha at the Gas Pump Breaking Convention (not a podcast but just an idea as far as presentations go) Jordan Peterson (I wouldn't be surprised if it actually turned out to be a productive show) Tim Freke The Weinstein's Rebel Wisdom Guru Viking Ken Wilber - he's gotten interviewed by people with very little following so I wouldn't be surprised if you guys could get a dialogue going. The only thing is, it couldn't be an interview but rather a conversation. I think that would be one of the most fruitful ones you could probably have, in my personal opinion.

Yes and we all do that everyday, regardless of our diet. I can apply that to vegans because hey, it's easier to kill plants and so forth for our own selfish survival agenda. You kill bugs everyday when you walk on the ground whether you're aware of it or not. So this really isn't saying anything. You're conflating corrupt forms of hunting with the entire hunting community. Native Americans killed wild buffalo (among other animals) while having having thriving spiritual tribes in yet it's also in their culture and customs to experience great a sense of respect and gratitude for the animals that they kill. There are ethical codes to within the hunting community and if you're too blind and dogmatic to see that, that's on you to get that, nobody else. Regarding compassion, compassion is an experience we create in our own experience. You can be enlightened and still be a samurai or a warrior and kill people. Hence the samurai in Japan that were trained in Rinzai Zen. Hence Muhammad. In yet you can do so from a place of great compassion and still "do your duty." Giraffes and elephants have to kill plants by eating from them everyday. Is that a relationship to nature that lacks compassion by your standards? Plants are just as much alive as animals or humans. So this stance of yours is purely ideological and self biased.

The problem is not the knife. The problem lies in our relationship to it. Same goes for idols. Idols are phenomenal inventions by people for spiritual practice for a myriad of things. Concentration practice, deity yoga, tantra, etc. It’s also useful to consider how powerful inventions they were for pre literate cultures. Idols also can serve different purposes aside from just enlightenment. Idols aren’t a problem if you don’t take them as inherently true rather than as the inventions they are, and they were and still are powerful inventions that serve people. That’s why art is so powerful. Art you could say is really just a projection of a snapshot of a something that was in a human mind that was given form and made manifest that people then resonate with and connect with in their own unique way and their unique psychology. A painting, a poem or piece of literature, or an idol for that matter becomes a medium for deep connection that is unique and personal for each person.

I personally have no problem with someone (particularly me) taking a moral or ethical stance when it comes to veganism if... The decision is made as an ethical form of protest when it comes to say the suffering that is caused by say factory farming and what not. There is the non dogmatic understanding that life is life. Plants actually do in fact feel pain, we just aren’t usually in a sensitive enough state to have that be a conscious experience. I do resonate with what @aurum said regarding pets. I have a dog and I’ve already had some many insights regarding just how we anthropomorphize our relationship with these different species for almost purely selfish motives. We can have so many different perspectives on this but at the same time, lose sight of the fact that these are merely perspectives, ways of looking at what is the case regardless of how we color it. We can also have perspectives of how these animals can live rather happy lives if they are treated well. For example, take people that rescue dogs that might be strays and really help them. It very much can just come down to our relationship to the reality of the matter. There’s very poignant examples of stories about enlightened beings that were executioners and so forth, a job that we might believe inherently lacks compassion in and of itself, but that’s not true because compassion is experienced in and through individuals, not jobs. Hunters that hunt animals can do so from a place of great respect, compassion, and love. That’s why there’s ethical codes in the hunting community. You can prepare your meat with great gratitude and reverence for the animal for providing the sustenance you are about to get from it. Certain cultures did have these in place. However this belief that enlightened would, should, and are vegans or whatever is pure hogwash. This is not true. Just a belief. Unfortunately there’s a lot of complicated stuff when it comes to the world of food, nutrition, and the sourcing/growing of our food as well as the economic sides of things that would be useful to take into account. Not everyday has the time it takes to research and adjust to such a diet that might be more expensive down the road. Vegan diets don’t fit everyone’s personal priorities for their life. There’s also the trade off of supporting corrupt forms of farming of our fruits and vegetables that have lead to the decrease in quality of nutritional value should more people choose to go vegan that would increase demand and create messy issues on how to produce enough supply and what corners might be cut in order to meet the challenge. In the end though, this is a dynamic play between suffering and survival and the two, by and large, go together. There is no perfect way around this. There is no binary ethical/non ethical switch here. It’s very much relative and my invitation is to consider the relationship we have.

The stick works better than the carrot. I haven't met a single powerful teacher that didn't go to the "extreme" to really further their insight. When you are ready to stop fucking and get it no matter what with a single minded relentless determination that you will become conscious NOW no matter what and stay with that impatience (be impatiently patient), and not put up with more bullshit comfort tactics because NOW you truly do want to know no matter what. All this back and forth stuff for people in their pursuit is because they're not being honest about the fact that some part of them doesn't want the truth. Which is fine. That actually takes a lot of honesty to admit that which I imagine most people on this path in name don't have the courage or awareness to see or speak that truth to themselves. Which actually can create that "charged, polarized divide/conflict" which creates more questions that are worth exploring and investigating and purusing what you do really want rather than what you think which will still leave your deepest thirst unquenched until you honestly want the truth (or consciousness, to know who you are, to know that which you can always trust, the source of peace, etc. it doesn't matter, however that ultimate is cognized for you is fine) no matter what. That's actually what separates a lot of people who get far that are willing to go to what we conventionally call "extreme" (though it's not inherently necessary).