SOUL

It amazes me the mental yoga people go through to make a point that doesn't exist.

@Shanmugam My apologies for triggering such a reaction in you but I assure you the assumptions you make about me are mistaken.

This thread started with an appearance of clarity in awareness, that you were seeing through the house of cards being constructed but now it seems like you are letting yourself get confused by the cards. You are examining every edge and every marking on the cards searching for clues to the reason and meaning of the house. I made aware the esoteric sounding word play and clever circling narratives used in an attempt to distract and that is what happened. You are admittedly just more confused by it all and unfortunately no amount of more word play and circling narratives will untangle the mind from the distraction unless.....you just let it go and let it be.

@Scholar Now that you see the emperor has no clothes don't let the spin masters bamboozle you into believing their ass isn't exposed. There will be esoteric sounding word play and clever circling narratives used in an attempt to distract you. Attaining a genuine clarity in awareness allows one to recognize that attributing as many characteristics to what is said to be inconceivable and unimaginable as some do is laughable. As they tell the story of their concepts about it they say it's not conceptual and if questioned it's turned on you who isn't open to it or trapped in 'maya'. They declare the authority of directly knowing "absolute" as the only reality and truth dismissing all else as illusion and false. Cognitively priming you as they were primed as well in saying if you "search" for the truth it will be as they say it is so are suggesting if it's anything other than that it's not truth and you don't know the truth. The demonizing of thoughts, ideas, beliefs and mind is herding the 'seekers' by corralling them into a dogmatic belief paradigms and chasing off anything that strays from it as unawakened and deluded sheep. Everyone else repeats the regurgitated rhetoric and all the gurus agree so it must be true! So seek clarity, keep awakened and be at peace! Haha!

Well, it seems most agree you speak all the criteria of 'enlightenment', I guess congratulations is in order....haha

I don't know....haha

I didn't come to that conclusion, it was a simple illustration of how 'no self' is misrepresented and this can lead others to suffer in confusion. We can be aware of our 'no self' experience but this doesn't make the self disappear, it just ceases to be our primary focus. 'Enlightenment' is expanding our awareness to more than the self centered experience the body innately produces, to be aware of and abiding in the 'no self' experience in our consciousness. It's not erasing the self from existence since the body subconsciously generates the sense of self, it's expanding and focusing awareness away from the sense of self to include the 'no self' experience and center our being in it. Not communicating this distinction may confuse and frustrate people who are being misled to believe that the self really disappears but they experience the body still spontaneously generating the sense of self. As we evolve in life while abiding in the 'no self' state of being the body's subconscious associations in emotion and thought will become less self centered and the 'reactionary' impulses will mitigate in relation to perception. Although, memories will still accrue, functionality for survival will still exist, if we are hungry the stomach will ache and if we bump our head it will still hurt, it's just our being is abiding in equanimity not in reaction to it. Does this make any sense?

"truth: the quality or state of being true." "true: in accordance with fact or reality. accurate or exact. loyal or faithful. honest." Truth is relative according to the standard it is applied on. A personal truth is according to a personal standard, scientific truth is according to what is revealed by the scientific method, reality truth is according to reality which is often associated with life and is comprised of objective and subjective experience. Truth is a comparison to a standard so it is relative to the standard set and measured by, truth isn't compared to itself other than it is being true and what is true is a measure of a standard as well. Science - accurate fact Personal - loyal, faithful, honest Reality - objective and subjective experience So, the question is what's the standard one will measure to find if it's truth? Reality? Ok, that awesome but there is subjective experience associated with reality that I cannot determine for you and you cannot determine for me. "Spinach tastes delicious"...how is the "truth" of this statement determined? It is subjective, there is no objective standard that the "truth" can be compared to so "reality" has subjective truth qualities. A universal "absolute truth" that people may suggest exists is a belief paradigm story that is created according to their experience. You may say it's "no story reality", some may say it's "Jesus saves", others may say it's "science rules".... who is to determine which is "absolute truth"? I'm hungry for food.... can you determine if it's "truth"?....hehe

Do you?

You are welcome to believe anything you want but don't expect others to believe it. The clarity of reality reveals it all.

@Joseph Maynor Yes, it is my story although I don't suggest my story is a universal absolute truth that is everyone's story, I let people create or destroy their own story as they see fit and let the reality of living their life be their story.

@Shanmugam My spiritual path started to heal childhood trauma, it wasn't about 'enlightenment' and it's never been about it. As the healing happened in my life there was awakenings that came along with it that others would association with 'enlightenment' but it still wasn't a focus of mine. I definitely was surrounded by many kinds of 'teaching' from western to eastern varieties, atheist, scientific, self help, empowerment, the list goes on. Although, I felt imposed upon by so many of them, there was so much pressure to adopt values and perspectives that had nothing to do with my healing but instead framed as being 'right', 'good' and 'truth' which only supported their own belief systems. If it didn't resonate with me it was portrayed as me being wrong, bad or false and until I submitted to them and their beliefs I wouldn't and couldn't get healing. I intuitively knew I could get it without their belief systems and ultimately without their input at all so I went an autodidact way and it came in a genuine way but with so much more. A sense of peace, joy and fulfillment that transcended anything I observe in others around me not that I cared to compare it to justify me. I spent many years contented in this and didn't really seek out discussions about spirituality like I have on here but I would use my real life as an opportunity to let people I would cross paths with to let them know healing and peace was possible. I became very adept as feeling out what people really were searching for and what methods of understanding appealed to them and catered my words to fit their language, kind of like what you say you do. Yet I find myself constantly walking a razor's edge of challenging people's comfort zones or comforting that hurting inner child, or not being an either-or as sometimes people need to be challenged so the healing can happen. I still don't claim to know or seek 'truth' or 'enlightenment' but do acknowledge the awakening of our inner life as a way to healing and bringing, joy, fulfillment and peace.

That's your story about reality so if you want to create and believe it this way then that is your choice for your subjective inner experience of it. Although, that story isn't an absolute truth, it's just yours so be at peace with it.

@Shanmugam I don't recognize any disagreement, so I won't perpetuate that perception. What I observe is that the complication of the teaching often brings even more self caused suffering which is why I prefer to focus on the simplicity of being present. It also comes from teaching that the only "truth", the only reality and the only thing that exists is an unknowable absolute that really is just a story humans have conceptualized and projected onto the universe. Life is what it is, we can just be in it and accept it for what it is. It doesn't have to be viewed as a 'false absolute' we need to deny and reject to instead believe a conceptual 'truth absolute'. Although some people shame others for just being human, for having a story and ridicule them for not calling it all a dream and getting on the conceptual belief wheel to chase after an unknowable 'absolute' of their creating. That is just another believed story as Jeff so clearly points out.

@ShanmugamThe quote you used was him explaining how he himself was teaching the deceptive ideas under the guise of being authentic. He is saying without embracing the story of the wave it isn't authentic, the wave's story is just as real as the ocean's story, even more real. He suggests that the 'impersonal' story is just a personal belief, not an absence of belief as so many have been teaching and this is something that I have been saying for decades. That people don't live in the absolute, or the ultimate as he called it, we live here in life, in the relative as you and many others call it. There really is no absolute truth since 'truth' is comparative term because truth depends on relating to a standard and we cannot perceive that standard, all we have is a relative perception. Even that supposed absolute "truth" standard is a story that humans have conceptualized and projected onto the universe. What it really matters is the point of exploring any of this, it's to cease the source of suffering, it's not chasing after some unknowable ultimate absolute with no standard of comparison, that is the "trap" he is talking about. Healing and ceasing the self caused suffering is attainable in the so called "relative truth", it's attainable in real life, there is no other point to any of this without attaining that, the rest is mental masturbation of chasing abstractions. This is why I speak to the simplicity in just being and that isn't a story about a happy ending, it's a story of joyful being.

@Shanmugam Hmm well, Jeff is acknowledging that both the wave and the ocean exist. He is moving away from denying the wave, denying the individual story and instead embracing it while also embracing the unity, recognizing both individual expression and the whole expression. He is suggesting it's more than just a trap of not teaching to the level of the seeker, as if it's just a mistaken teacher of an authentic teaching. He is saying it's a deceptive teaching itself because it's really just a story of claiming it's not a story while denying the seeker's story.

There's all sorts of beliefs up in here while suggesting 'no beliefs'....haha. "be·lief an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something."

@Shanmugam It does resonate, I have often questioned some of the 'non-dual' teaching and wondered if it was just adding to the confusion and angst in others. In fact, I am aware of some people who were disturbed by me questioning the effects of it and have taken it personally while claiming they are 'impersonal'. What are your thoughts on it? Does it resonate with you?

@Hsinav There are plenty of topics started already, I did one time but now let others do the starting.

@Shanmugam I'm not making fun of you and I ridicule nobody, that's your projection, I'm just laughing because I find it funny. I asked a simple question about your thoughts on the very content you posted, you refused to answer citing a conversation had quite awhile ago you still haven't gotten over.... that's funny to me. If you don't find any humor in it then that's on you, if we aren't laughing together that's your decision, I'm laughing either way. If you would like to discuss Jeff's words in that quote I'm still opening to hearing your thoughts but that's up to you.

You seem to forever hold onto that conversation never wanting to let it go. You only heard what you wanted to hear, not what I really said. Let it go. BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA

@Shanmugam So an essay you post here suggesting it's something you are trying to convey to others of which I pull out the principle revelation he speaks in it and you think "nothing much" when asked about it? That's hilarious! BAHA!

@Shanmugam There are many more things i find humorous that I do not post about. What do you think about the quote? .... just wondering.

Yes, faith, along with love bring the presence of being to awareness.

Haha