SOUL

Yea, because there aren't the ages worth including this current one filled with 'masters' talking to seekers and even cashing in on people listening to them talk. So they scamming?

@ivankiss You have put to me about 'honesty' a couple times in our exchange so far but I'd like to point out something that requires your honesty. I clearly explained what I consider useful about stories in relation to self suffering and yet you ignored it to try to make an empty point about we all get to decide what is useful. Gosh, I never thought of that. You might have used that as an opportunity to explain what you find useful but, no, just say an obvious thing about subjectivity. Hmmmm, honesty, huh? Then I comment about two different types of math, the materialist one where the 'sum' is the number of individuals and another one, what I called the holistic one where the 'sum' also includes the individuals as a whole in it. Obviously, the latter is more metaphysical where it has subjectivity in it and is not an objectivity in physics like the former. Then you attempt to chide me with it about what would a neighbor think of me? Should I ask you what a neighbor would think about your story you have been sharing here? I suspect we'd both be taking up residence in lalaland lost in airy fairly tales according to the neighborhood. Hmmmm something something about honesty, right? I'm pleased that the seeking of stories isn't a source of self suffering for you, though behaviors can be an indicator of it and there are very many who aren't as fortunate. The stories of self identity and chasing 'truths' or explanations of 'what is' often serve as a source of self suffering. Can we honestly deny that isn't a common occurrence, hm? I can appreciate you losing interest if there isn't honesty in a discussion because I'm losing interest in this one. Honesty is also being genuine in communicating with others especially in presenting differing visions because we can learn from each other if we are open. @VeganAwake Powerful questions. Suffering is the instance of pain, discomfort or distress. When we are in presently occurring physical suffering it is different than when that suffering is from the self conscious. We stub our toe it hurts the toe, that's physical suffering but when we experience self conscious anguish over stubbing our toe it's self suffering. Stub the toe and we put ice on it. Now the self conscious in the mind might chatter on with 'Clumsy fool why do I always do that AARRGGG!' How do we ice the mind? There is also the self conscious focusing on the past or the future. The toe doesn't hurt anymore a week later but the mind might still be scolding us for it. The self conscious will create all sorts of mental and emotional pain, discomfort and distress from events in the past we currently aren't experiencing and potential future experiences that we imagine may happen. This type of self suffering is only in our imagination and yes it is rooted in attaching to the self as an identity. There is also self suffering that the ego presents as currently happening to us but is just in the imagination. Maybe someone innocently or not says something and it triggers the self conscious to think it's being hurt by it, 'How dare they say that!' It creates mental and emotional distress but if we in awareness agree with this perception we self suffer and may behave in reaction to the imagined pain. Since I spoke about it in this thread I will address how the self conscious will create distress from the pursuit of 'truth', meaning, knowledge, happiness, 'enlightenment' and even freedom from suffering. Essentially the self conscious perceives us as incomplete and this can be the source of self suffering. Our agreement with this perception is attaching to the identity of lacking or absence. When we agree and attach to them even if they were only slight or minimal in effect initially the agreement attention given will create a feedback loop that intensifies and empowers them as 'real' for us and our identity to it. This is also the situation with past and future imaginings we can empower with agreement attention. Accepting is more passive but there can also be some empowering endorsement in that so be aware of this. 'Telling it to stop' in effect is also empowering that identity attachment to continue instigating in our mind sensations of thoughts, emotions and perceptions even if we are resisting or fighting them so that can be the source of self suffering. A more effective way is to remain in awareness observing them in equanimity and clarity. Be as such that there is no place for the mind's antics to stick to. Wow.... this post is maybe the longest I ever wrote here. I'm done. hah

@ivankiss I don't think in terms of enlightenment or of more or less of it. I didn't come in here quibbling about the details of the story, I was making a distinction...you know distinction, you spoke about it in your first post, I was pointing to the distinction between the story telling and liberation. The story telling can be useful if it serves the cessation of self suffering but quite often it is a distraction from liberation and the pursuit of or disagreement about the 'absolute truth' story can be a source of self suffering. This discussion can be another example of a distraction. Except, I won't let it be for my own experience, I didn't initially speak about the conceptual dualism in your story and it wasn't a ruse to display any self-righteousness, it's was an opportunity to speak about the experience of ....self-sufferless. Even when I did bring up details of the story it was prompted by your assertion and it was to explain how I did understand it. Though, it's not about the story or the story telling, that's the point, the story telling of identity and attachment to the story is the source of self suffering. I do 'create'...a being in liberation every moment. From that being in liberation every expression I 'create' is empowered with transcendent peace, joy and fulfillment in every work of art, music and, yes, story. Though, I don't hold up my story as an 'absolute truth', it's just a story in my imagination. So we could continue in the distraction of attachment to the story and telling it or we could transcend that and instead cease self suffering. If we do continue in the distraction then let's marvel at how the materialist math of 1+1=2 differs from the holistic math of 1+1=3, it's amazing, huh. The story can also be told of the absolutes...wait...absoluteS? Yes, infinity, eternity and nonentity and they are in unity, the transcendent absolute. So consciousness is really the baby of a threesome.....I bet you didn't know existence was so kinky, hah We sure do love our stories...haha But yea....I find the cessation of self suffering a more worthwhile endeavor than story telling but that's just my story.

Oh look, it's an ego. I'm aware of something about your story that you don't even understand. There is no duality, even if consciousness is the first expression of the 'absolute' it's not dualism. There's the 'absolute', consciousness and the holistic unity of them so it's a trinity from the from first expression of the whole. Yea, it's bedtime for bonzo....haha. Let me know when you awake from the story telling.

I can appreciate the story you are telling although it's still is just a story in your imagination. It seems like so many want to be the story teller that reveals the 'absolute truth' but all the stories are born out of the hierarchical priming in the imagination of a primitive mind. Liberation is a more worthwhile endeavor, the cessation of self suffering has genuine lasting effect in people's lives. These esoteric stories can be a distraction and the seeking of them often serve as a source of continued self suffering. Yet, people sure do love their stories....

It is said that nothing matters so kiss the bunny already

This concept of 'nothing matters' is to motivate a release of attachment to 'things'. Yet, that can be without the concept which proves for very many who encounter it to be an obstacle to the cessation of self suffering from the attachment to things, not ironically having attachment to the idea 'nothing matters'. I probably could have just lead with that but I doubt it would have changed much because people really do cling tightly to their ideas. Also, if 'god' is 'unknowable' why do people ascribe meaninglessness to 'god'? Didn't you say it's unknowable? Haha... I likely started a whole new 'thing'.

Woah, someone said I was a little hard but this here turned into a dog pile....hah Not to 'do' it. Be it.

Well, it's laughably simple and obvious, cease to be attached in awareness to them. Haha Oh...and release any desire to be aware of it... that's the challenging aspect.

I can appreciate your eloquent and poetic words in describing the knowing you have grasped about what you claim can't be described, grasped or known. We can be aware of the whole and I suggest keep transcending the perceived limits on what can be described, grasped or known. Here is a hint...when you get to 'I am god'...keep going because even that can be transcended to where 'I'....'am'... and 'god' cease to be....not just in concept, but in awareness. Peace.

@Inliytened1 Perhaps, although, I've seen Leo go way harder on people here and I would even perceive it sometimes as bullying using his stature to do so. Yet, I do apologize if I did, it wasn't my intention to harm anyone. If you follow the exchange we were having maybe you can see what I did in it and this was my intention by prodding them into examining and addressing what I was exploring. I will leave it alone though, again, my apologies.

@VeganAwake Your belief system is yours... it isn't any sort of absolute or universal truth, it's just your own truth, no matter how many others agree with you, how much you believe in it or polish your ego with 'no higher teaching' rhetoric..... it's all in your imagination. It's not the middle way, it's a modern version of aesthetics that Buddha encountered in his day but the belief is centered around psychological self. The extremes are the egocentric on one side and the no-self on the other. You may eventually awaken to the genuine nature of being and come to understand how the meaning/meaningless conceptualization is another way the ego uses dualism in it's 'spiritual self'. Holistic being embraces, honors and celebrates the whole. There is a oneness that we relinquish our attachment to the individual self to awaken to but once we do that oneness empowers our individual self to be a genuine unique expression of the whole like one facet out of infinite number on a gem that each glows when the light hits it. I awakened to it through an autodidact path experience but I'm aware that some people require an internet guru to say it so here.....

Your words are meaningless yet you glorify them, curious...hm You believe it isn't belief..... interesting, hm.

@Inliytened1 I think something along that theme was addressed in the first couple pages. Too often the spiritual 'path' as presented by so many of the 'no-self/nothingness' teaching is just a rejection of everything physical which isn't an accepting way to live life but it also presents a conflict with actually living life. What I speak about is embracing life in it fullest but isn't dependent on the circumstances of life to be fulfilled. Don't seek it.... be it.

A circle has one side.....but that still fits with the story you are telling though.... infinite and one ...haha.

I'm sure this was replied to in the thread, probably multiple times but I'm not reading it all to find out and it likely was more mystical mumbo jumbo so I will address it in another way for you. Our mind generates a sense of self to motivate us for survival and with what people call the ego this is expressed as identity which included in that attachment is meaning, purpose and fulfillment. Since the pursuit of identity, the 'I matter', creates so much self suffering in us the spiritualists have chosen to embrace the complete opposite expressed as 'nothing matters' and believe it as the 'absolute truth'. Let me present a middle way instead of running from one extreme to the other. Instead of seeking out meaning... what 'matters' in the external world of circumstances find that fulfillment in being... in just being. Not in doing, attaining, achieving or identifying with to have fulfillment, we just be fulfilled. Be it. Then everything in life we experience is empowered with this unconditional fulfillment. Hopefully this brings some clarity and can be useful to you in being at peace.

I'm sure he wasn't being insensitive or inconsiderate but he just may not be suited as a teacher to guide someone who has a such inherently problematic mind. The type of guidance he might need is more therapeutic in nature instead of just mystical, a blend of both approach. I don't know how much experience he has with such challenged individuals. Of course, Spira alluded to previous time the young man shared so he might have multiple interactions with him and may convey to him what I just mentioned in another session. The reason I have some insight to this is because I'm one who was blessed with a similarly problematic mind which ironically did strengthen me with my inner work along my path.

You know... I read back through the post to you and that stuck out to me as not what I was trying to say so I changed it to something more accurately reflecting my own experience just as you replied back to me with only those words.....that's so funny!!!! HAHAHAHAHAA Yup, words are funny things.

Go to sleep and SNOAR! Baha

Leo offers detailed explanations of the imaginary....his imaginary, not everyone's. It's beneficial to be aware of this.

I notice you absolute-tizing things that may not always clarify them.....but actually on an 'absolute' level terror and peace aren't the same thing, the absolute is neither terror or peace, it's absolute and doesn't have relative characteristics of either. What might be clearer to say and I concur with is that the type of peace, let's call it a transcendent peace, that endures through all type of circumstances isn't one that is dependent on favorable circumstances to exist, it's a peace that transcends the relative circumstances. One might say to ourselves if this peace isn't based on relative circumstances it isn't relative so it is absolute. Other than that is a form of dualistic thinking it isn't quite accurate in that it still is peace, peace has characteristics of peace that are relatively expressed as peace. So though I may not prefer to use your word choice in absolute-tizing as I explained why I do have agreement in the experience of the peace that transcends the relative circumstances. This should be the take away and hopefully I've emphasized this. We all 'create our own reality' but this particular word choice appears to cause quite a bit of confusion as it has in this very thread, so maybe we can create a different word choice. Something to consider. Hehe

I watched this video and Spira has some insightful things to offer yet there was some opportunity to bring some clarity to this particular person's path. He did express to him about the awareness 'behind' everything in the mind though it may have been helpful to instruct him to recognize that awareness behind in the periods where his overactive mind is embroiled in the OCD. It's great he gave him a way to use that peace of awareness in every day relations of less charged moments. That can be a powerful way to create a peace in those more conducive outer circumstances. He could have also reminded him how powerful it is to take that same approach in the highly charged inner relations with his OCD mind. That mind is trying to instigate behavior even if that behavior is confined to within his consciousness like resistance or denial of the activity which creates distress. If he wants peace in those moments that awareness behind could serve as that basis of peace. Eventually this would create a lasting inner environment of peace naturally that he previously was experiencing after his trips which would fade away.

@ivankiss Haha, I can see what I point out about change and perspective is lost on you. Maybe eventually you will transcend infinity and this will become clear.

I keep hearing the a similar theme over and over again.... 'I agree with Bernie's ideas and policy but I want to vote for someone who can win so will vote Biden'.... uh.... If everyone who agrees with Bernie voted for him, polling suggests it's a majority across all political demographics, then Bernie can win. What's so hard to understand that is how it works? Besides, Biden doesn't win against Trump, he has the same issues as Hillary did but worse in many respects and will get exposed. It doesn't really matter what Bernie says or does, the establishment has such a strong hold over the minds of people they can't think for themselves and act in their own best interest.

@ivankiss I can appreciate your view of 'time'. I also can appreciate your perspective on the word 'illusion' but you have fallen into the same misconception that befalls very many others here in interpreting the word illusion as 'not real' when 'not as appears' is a more clear description. You say you are viewing from infinity so are aware of it as 'frames' but this isn't so novel, that's part of the illusion even if it is perceived at an immeasurable rate. Transcend the unending finite of the infinite and the 'frame rate' is perceived as a whole without separation. Wait....transcend infinity? Of course. Once one does transcend infinity change is not just the motion of shifting frames no matter how many slices can be fit into 'space' to give the illusion of 'time' but also is seen holistically as one evolving now. It simultaneously exists, it's being aware of them coinciding.