Scholar

I wouldn't say morality is universal, because it is a concept. However we can construct objective ideas of morality, in similar fashion in which physics can be objective. It does not mean it is universal, it still is relative to ones perspective, but it means that we can measure it and make truthapt statement within a certain framework. Yes, Morality is very much a tool, like Physics, which is why it is good to have if be founded upon principles of reason and and expansion of identity. We can for example understand the nature of Suffering, which is a form of Existence which seeks to extingiush itself. It is a form of existence which is self-annihilating, it seeks to not exist. Notice how ingenius this creation is. See, you do not need to tell anyone Suffering is bad or needs to get rid of, Suffering will make this happen simply by it's presence. In this way, God has instantiated his Will. The same is true for Well-being and so forth. God created a world which constructs itself through a process of survival. Survival is not evil, nor is it inherently selfish. This kind of framing that Leo is presenting here is very much cultural and ideological rather than based in a true insight into the nature of Existence. The ego likes to say these kinds of things. Morality is due to selfishness, but everything is due to selfishness. The Selfish and the Unselfish are one and the same. See, whether Leo likes it or not, Morality will evolve, Science will evolve, precisely because they are imaginary! They are a direct expression of God, his Will instantiated as imagination. This kind of demonization and failure to recognize the Perfection or Morality and Judgement and Selfishness is egoic. God does not say it is evil to be selfish, God expresses itself directly, through all of us, through everything. Anything Leo will be able to utter will be a relative expression of this.

Of course you would say that.

So I've had this weird thing happened to me this year, I had 3 of these dreams so far, one of them today. In all of them I am lucid, so I know I am dreaming. The dimension in which these dreams seem more vivid and real than "waking reality" is particularly in the visual department. I can see every detail, I can actually fully absorb the whole image, and it is actually like I was there. It's not cloudy, it's not inconsistent, it looks completely real. I can focus, just like in real life, on particlar areas of the image, and there is a clarity to all of it. If it's possible to have such consciousness in a dream, and have the dream be so vivid, could it not be possible to do consciousness work in a dreaming state? My consciousness seemed so absurdly high in that dream. I've had a similar experience twice where I saw the face of a monk, or whatever, and his eyes opening in some sort of terrifying realization, there was an intense energy going through my body as it happened, and then there was darkness. When the darkness comes, it feels like I can surrender to it or fight myself out of it. And when I am in that darkness, it feels like I will actually die if I do not fight. It feels like my heart will stop beating and I will literally be dead, while I am fully conscious that I am in a sleeping state. The fear was too terrifying so I always struggled out of it and wake up, but I always wonder what would happen if I surrendered. The problem is that I actually think I might die if I do that, that my heart will somehow stop beating and that I will be found dead in my bed. What do you guys think about this? Anyone having similar experiences?

But the problems you are mentioning, like soil erosion, pesticide run off, dead zones and so forth are all worse in the animal agriculture compared to if we were to simply consume the plants. We need more crops because we are feeding them to animals, all of the problems of overpopulation will only be far worse if people continue to consume animals products. I don't see how this is an argument against veganism, to me you are making arguments in support of it. To me it is irrelevant what our natural survival mechanisms are, because were are civilized now. We cannot justify what we are doing to others because it is natural, because nature is not moral. In nature, lions kill the baby lions of other lions. In nature, lions rape other lions. In nature, humans rape and kill each other. All of these things are natural, but we do not deem them to be good. If you want nothing but everyone to live happy and in peace, then I think veganism is a step in the right direction for you. The lion is surviving, you live in civilization. You can eat plants, not animals, like a gorilla does. There is no need to for us to enslave animals, infact it is very impractical. We are wasting so much land and ressources, and we are destroying nature. Just look at what overfishing is doing to the oceans, it is terrible. I think what we need to establish first is more sensitvity to other life. We have to be more sensitive than the lion, we have to have compassion, because we have a great responsibility being the species that governs this planet. This increase in sensitivity means that we view animals not as objects, food or slaves, but rather as our brothers and sisters.

What do you mean what is my point? I don't think it is okay to view them as food, much like I don't think it is okay to view children as sex-toys. I am just trying to tell you that these individuals are important to me and that I consider them my brothers and sisters, and that I will protect and advocate for them. I think you are being cruel and apathetic. Then I don't understand what you meant when you asked whether or not I have looked into the consequences of industrial agriculture, I am sorry if I misunderstood. I thought you meant that somehow industrial plant agriculture is worse than the animal agriculture, which is not the case. If you meant something else, please clarify.

I have done so. The main driver of environmental destruction is animal agriculture, after all the animals we consume must themselves consume plants. If the world were to go vegan, we could reduce landusage and rewild, or do anything else, with a large amount of land that we currently use for animal agriculture. On the other hand, if we continue to increase our meat consumption, we will soon require multiple earths to support all the animals that are being fed soy. With grass fed animals this problem is even worse, because the land needed is substantially greater. So yes, my love and respect for the animals lead me to determine that animal agriculture is terrible on both ends, the collateral damage and the direct impact it has on the animals. It is not simply a rights violation, but also has a more detrimental consequential impact.

I think you are making my argument. The most extreme thing we are doing to survive is going to the grocery store, yet we keep justifying the killing of animals by comparing us to carnivores who live in the wild and have to survive every day. We don't need to consume animals, kill them in this way, and we certainly are not predators living in the wild. To me, animals are individuals. I view them as my brothers and sisters. I think it is unfortunate that you would view them as nothing but food. They are living, feeling creatures just like you are. A bear will eat you because he has to survive, and because he has no moral agency. It is sad to me that people today have less respect of animals than our ancestors who actually needed to kill them to survive. They were respectful of each animal, to them they were not just food. They knew that the animals they were killing we no different from them, just trying to survive in a harsh world. It wasn't until the advent of agriculture and religions that view the human as somehow seperate from nature that people started to view animals, and other races of people as property on a larger scale. Animals are not food, they are our brothers and sisters. This is not about drama, this is about compassion. I think you have much yet to learn, but I am the wrong person to teach you.

Let us not talk about your brother, let us talk about you. Whether it is a gaschamber or a knife, as long as you take yourself the right to kill the animal or pay for it's death, I will take myself the right to confront you about it. If you truly believe you need animal products to survive, all I can tell you is to get your information from proper reliable sources. Do you agree that if you do not need to consume animal products to survive, that it would be immoral to buy them and support industries that enslave and kill animals?

I don't think that watching people assassinate their own health makes you happy at all. I don't know why you think that I think that. I also let you do what you want to with your own body, but as soon as you are forcing your own subjectivity onto others, like killing a pig, then I think it is appropriate to keep you from doing this, especially if you do not need the consumption of flesh to survive. You already are imposing your own needs onto others. As long as you take yourself the right to put a pig into a gaschamber, I will take myself the right to confront you about this. You are taking this too personal, I simply want to protect the pig. You do not need to consume flesh to survive, and if you did, you would certainly not need to consume pigs. There are many things that would be consumed far before we would consider killing a pig.

Yes, this is true. But also not true, only from your current perspective this is valid. Relativity itself is relative. This is the beauty of Creation. You will not capture this with the mind, infact you cannot capture this with your own perspective. Any perspective, and belief about relativity you offer, will not escape this. Danio, you are facing the issue of attempting to capture the arational with a rational mind. This within the concept-thought structure will lead to all kinds of loops. It is much like attempting to capture a 3d object on a 2d surface. How could you possible capture the entirety of the 3d object on the 2d surface? It will always be a snapshot of the object. And even worse, if you try to capture all of the 3d object from all it's 2d angles, you will have a mess. There will be lines over lines, contradictions of positions of corners. Corners will be at multiple places at once, and edges too! And you still don't have the 3d object, you still only have 2d shapes. This is what happens when the mind tries to take relativity into the realm of the rational. The arational is unconstraint, rationality is constraint. So, all of this what you say does not really change anything about what I say. Everything I say functions the same way under your relative paradigm of relativity.

I don't understand why this would make you happy. It seems like you want veganism to be unhealthy. Why would you not want it to be healthy? Aside from that, I take science over random articles on the internet.

This is not correct, Keyhole. I don't think everyone can impose their morality unless that morality matches with mine. There is nothing inconsistent about this. In the context of veganism, I think once we have established a certain majority, it will be perfectly moral to enforce this new moral standard by law, so to protect animals from being murdered at the threat of prison. This is not different from how laws work today. I am not fighting my own sense of morality, you simply have not investigated what my sense of morality is. It seems to me this is the case because you are more interested in poking holes than actually trying to learn anything from me. Next time if you are unsure about what my sense of morality is, just ask. I have put some thought into this Keyhole, so please don't be uncharitable. You are currently arguing with a strawman of your own creation.

Okay my brother, have a nice day.

How is it a bad comparison? I think you will be surprised, because eventually people will view the animal holocaust as far worse than any human holocaust, and any type of human slavery. They will look at your comment and think "How could they have not seen the obvious?". It is precisely because you view animals not as individuals, much like people used to look at other races, that you find it so offensive to compare aimals to humans, to compare what is happening to animals to slavery. This is actually the entire issue, that you do not view them as individuals. “When I see cages crammed with chickens from battery farms thrown on trucks like bundles of trash, I see, with the eyes of my soul, the Umschlagplatz (where Jews were forced onto trains leaving for the death camps). When I go to a restaurant and see people devouring meat, I feel sick. I see a holocaust on their plates.” Georges Metanomski, a Holocaust survivor who fought in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising “I refuse to eat animals because I cannot nourish myself by the sufferings and by the death of other creatures. I refuse to do so, because I suffered so painfully myself that I can feel the pains of others by recalling my own sufferings.” Edgar Kupfer-Koberwitz, Dachau concentration camp survivor “ ‘Never again’ is not about what others shouldn’t do to us. It’s about what we shouldn’t do to others. ‘Never again’ means that we must never again perpetrate mass atrocities against other living beings. That we must never again raise animals for food or any other form of exploitation.” Dr. Alex Hershaft, Warsaw Ghetto survivor “In the midst of our high-tech, ostentatious, hedonistic lifestyle, among the dazzling monuments to history, art, religion, and commerce, there are the black boxes. These are the biomedical research laboratories, factory farms, and slaughterhouses – faceless compounds where society conducts its dirty business of abusing and killing innocent, feeling beings. These are our Dachaus, our Buchenwalds, our Birkenaus. Like the good German burghers, we have a fair idea of what goes on there, but we don’t want any reality checks.” Dr. Alex Hershaft, Warsaw Ghetto survivor “What do they know-all these scholars, all these philosophers, all the leaders of the world – about such as you? They have convinced themselves that man, the worst transgressor of all the species, is the crown of creation. All other creatures were created merely to provide him with food, pelts, to be tormented, exterminated. In relation to them, all people are Nazis; for the animals it is an eternal Treblinka.” Isaac Bashevis Singer – a member of a family perished in the Holocaust and a Nobel Prize winner “As often as Herman had witnessed the slaughter of animals and fish, he always had the same thought: in their behaviour towards creatures, all men were Nazis. The smugness with which man could do with other species as he pleased exemplified the most extreme racist theories, the principle that might is right.” Isaac Bashevis Singer – a member of a family perished in the Holocaust and a Nobel Prize winner

Can you see that your ego mind takes this wonderful realization of relativity and turns it into a tool that it can use to serve it's own purposes? Just notice this right now, because right now it is happening. You sneaky little devil. This is why we seperate spiritual insights from morality, because the devil is always tempted to use anything, no matter what it is, to justify itself and it's own devilry. This kind of behaviour has been described in Spiral Dynamics, you are quite literally showcasing excessive relativism. We have all been there, but you will see it will not lead you anywhere. You will return, and the world will still remain as is, just that you have this new perspective. And you will see how your ego will hate it when someone uses relativity against you, like you are right now. Then you will understand "Aha, it is not appropriate to use relativity to dismiss moral arguments!". And then you will have gained an important new insight. See, it is precisely because reality is relative, that this insight of relativity is meaningful only to the degree you make it meaningful. In the grander sense, reality is not relative nor anti-relative. But again, this is useless in the current environment we are in. In this environment, consistency is imporant. This is how we make moral progess. We ask "Why is it okay to enslave a black person but not a white person?". We generate answers, and if we find those answers to be unsatisfying, we have to change. This is just how things go, otherwise you will be reduced to barbarism.

Contemplate when it is appropriate to use relativity and when it is used as a defense mechansim. When we are in a meditation retreat and we are learning about the nature of reality and mind, talking about relativity is appropriate. When I am raping a child and someone calls me out for it, talking about relativity is not appropriate. This should be obvious. In general, to avoid this kind of devilry, I recommend to seperate spirituality from morality, much like you would seperate it from any other type of imaginary tool, like physics. If we are discussing physics, and you keep telling me that all I am doing is relative, and how I am not seeing that all types of physics are just relative to each perspective, then I am actually not doing anything useful. I am actually disrupting the process. You are doing the same when you bring this up in terms of morality. You are just muddying the waters, please google this term.

Yes, morality is enforced by force. If you want to rape a child, you go to prison. If you resist prison, you will be forced to go to prison. This, as always, is only controversial if you really, really want it to be.

What moral implications did the abolishment of slavery have?

@Keyhole Look at how you focus and nitpick at my behaviour when literally the majority of the posts from the owner of this forum are demeaning, belittleling, dismissive and full "ineffective" advocacy. Yet, I bet you didn't point that out a single time. Of course you would not, because all of this is just an oppurtunity for you to shit on vegans. This is why you are here, in every single thread that is about veganism. I have a reason to be here, I advocate for veganism. Why do you keep coming into these threads to belittle and attack vegans? As I said, you are nothing but a gaslighting bad faith actor.

Yes, I love how you nitpick the literal worst days I have within the entirety of of multiple months or years to then point out how bad I am at this. Sure I will admit my heart is closed today, there are reasons for this I will not go into detail. But the fact that you are so dishonest and weasely that you will focus on this, but not on literally 95% of my conduct, is just insane to me. And then you come with snarky comments about how I am a bad advocate and how the animals are unhappy about it. You know what they are truly unhappy about? That you are paying so that they get gassed to death. You are nothing but a gaslighting, bad faith actor.

Nothing you said is relevant though. You can arrive at veganism with the values people already hold, if you apply them consistently it is an inevitability. This is the entire reason why people get so triggered about this topic, because their cognitive dissonance is revealed. I don't actually have to change your morality at all, unless you are a sociopath. I can simply show you were your already present values will lead you to. If this is not successful, I have to use force to impose my morality onto you, in terms of a law or otherwise. Again you are not even engaging with what I am saying, this conversation is completley fruitless. You are failing to grasp the content of what I am saying.

@Keyhole Also, the irony of calling others a failure of advocacy while you are doing nothing but ego attacks is hilarious. But as always, you guys just thrive in hypocrisy. The fact that morality is relative has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Infact, the fact that it is relative makes it so much more important to do honest rational inquiries and remain consistent. This is quite literally the reason why you can enjoy to sit here and write on a computer instead of running away from a maniac trying to murder you and then rape your wife. But apparently you don't understand the importance of this technology we call morality. Your idea of morality is completely self-serving, and because it serves no purpose for you anymore, you just throw it away. This is very easy to do when you are not the one being gassed to death.

You are incredible at gaslighting people, I will refrain from engaging with you again.

Funny how this is such an obvious fallacy that we came up with the same response.