Sri Ramana Maharshi

It could be debated (and already has been by some) that deep sleep is "nothingness", but states have touched this body that are deeper. 1.) Jhana in full Commentarial Absorbtion. Source: Hard Jhana/full relative time stop/direct consciousness in personal practice. Secondary source: Visuddhimagga/Vimuttimagga, and other individuals alive now (anecdotal) such as Ajahn Brahm for example. This is deeper than "deep sleep" delta waves, since in deep sleep one's body can have contact at the ear sense door, and awaken from slumber. In Absorption one is fully disconnected from "mind" and the 5 sense doors, including hearing. Most markedly, from the standpoint of an outside observer, the body barely takes in breath and is basically comatose. Otherwise it doesn't qualify for commentarial Jhana. This isn't even to mention Nirodha Samapatti, which I won't even unpack here. 2.) Nibbana, defined this time as the cessation of all formations (not just mental, but those found at Contact with the 5 bodily Aggrigates). Personal practice source: Annica 3 doors experience, body skips like a flat rock against VOID. Things really are quite simple, but if we try and simplify them too much in concept, it's just gibberish and folks get confused and waste time in fear and traps, or more tragic forms of ridiculous do-er-ship. Ramana mentioned in his collected works that deep sleep was a time when the world was gone, but he *may* not have realized that the substrate "I-I" was an impermanence wave that comes and goes. In any case, the Buddha gave a much more exhaustive and useful treatment of these issues with his elucidation of the 4 noble truths and particularly the 3 Lakhanas of conditioned existence. I don't mention these states and terms in order to be literal or fundamentalist, but if we do practice/yoga, self-inq. whatever, then we have to come up with a consistant language in which to communicate our efforts. Without that, it's a bunch of idiots pasting ridiculous pictures at each other and spinning in content. Uh oh! Snap.

This is so accurate and has almost happened to me at least twice during the last 8-10 years of doing this "work". It seems to be just another shadow trap that the sense of self uses to gain by contraction, trying to purge itself of that which might lead to openess or accountability. Very well put Leo!! I remember Shinzen Young mentioning that this phenomena of seeing "less spiritual folks" as merely a newb/intermediate step in the path, which will be long outgrown prior to mastery. One masterful teacher whom I work with personally once told me, "Like Christ, we meet people where they are." For the kidz: If you are a level 90 archmage, it doesn't mean you mock and throw fireballs at a level 20 mage, because you know they are gaining experience and will eventually level up. You worry about your own spells.

@Faceless Well, I live in a community in the Southern U.S. where sharing isn't very valued, since people generally just work 60 hours a week, and are so unhappy when they get home, all they can do is slam a case of beer and pass out in front of the TV. Talk about Nihilistic abidance! So when a joker like me starts yapping about "examining the concomitants which create our very experience, rather than trying to fix or manipulate it.." I quickly receive the "gas face". My Dhamma teacher lives on the west coast, where things are progressive and you don't have to worry about getting shot for this kind of talk, so he doesn't always empathize. I don't have Sangha or many people interested in general Mysticism to commune with in person, so occasionally it can be fun to interact and learn things from people just like yourself, and everyone else on this great forum...even Leo. Any jokes or ribbings are intended to be good natured and not harsh speech or hurtful. I trust i will be justifiably snapped at immediately if such a thing transpires, since I don't want to cause harm.

Sat, Chit, Ananda!!!

Back to the topic the starter Catalyzed (or whatever you are supposed to call it on forums when someone starts a thread): I don't think there's that big of a problem on this forum, although I don't participate much. Yes, the noise floor is high, and by that I mean there is a lot of talk, but not all of it is pragmatic and non circle-jerkular. But that's ok. The sparkle of the gold makes it worth sifting through that black sand. Some of the pontificating that comes out of Leo's mouth and keyboard used to really blow me away, like "Oh my god, no way...he's got to be losing it." But then 6 months later a Direct Consciousness occurs that winds up congnizing itself into an edifice unmistakably overlapping some of Leo's more arcane Magesteria, and I have to say to myself (and occasionally to Leo personally), "Damn, he couldn't have hit that nail much harder on the head." ...well, excepting the contengency of him posting on Twitter or Instagram, where the videos would not be 1hr 52 minutes long every time with a sermon from the spiritual/intellectual ego real good stuf some of his shit, and brave. +1 for leo's credibility, public frog or not! I do with there were more older folks on here, but that just might be a reflection of my age and loneliness. Metta all.

Totally. And I do suffer sometimes. The real bitch of it is that now, after some years, it can be seen that an aspect of experience that imagines it is real is sometimes given the "option" to suffer within a free choiceless awareness. Or at least you can become into a painful abidance. After a time that can be enjoyable though, and that is a different distinction that I make than suffering itself (at least as defined in the 4 truths). The scope of becoming seems to run much deeper than anything psychological too (not to point to anything scary, but just saying). Thinking is suffering, and I sometimes grasp that (like right now) if I think it's worth it. Like caring about you, makes me want to share this, and I have to become into some ego that thinks that there is accretion or gain for the sense of "me"...like somehow I can get more Insight or become a better "teacher" someday through this experience of communication with you, while hoping not to piss you off or sound like an aloof dickhead. Metta and Compassion

..In addition, attachments make the communication failure really painful, grasping that and running time back a frame makes it suffering.

I struggle with communication too, my friend. Self forgiveness/acceptance/surrender (eventually) helps. It's the path after all. My character either over or under communicate in person...same in forums/email (case in point).

Ouch. I see dukkha... ...with clarity.

You seem Enlightened NOW.

...and here's a key secret that works well for me that I'll share: Relax! Lean back every now and then into some pussy/dick and drink a beer, or pet your dog or cat for a while. Take a nap, but set your alarm for 15 minutes for fuck's sake. :-)

Try Vipassana. Practice properly. If this is the case, Insight will come. It may or not be "useful". I guess that's all bound up in translation/interpretation and concept. All the jumping straight to full realization/Buddha-hood crap seems to be anecdotal bullshit for the lazy. The Eternalism garbage in the Vedanta/Divine/Shakti stuff is just the "oh wow, I'm saved" garbage reincarnated. You might as well hang it up and go back to church. The reason why Buddhism is so popular is because the Buddha and his pals actually did probe reality much deeper than the Vedantists (IMO) and we have the datas you can check with your own body to prove it to yourself. Over December I was practicing 30-35 hours a week (worth it), but then I wasn't working at the time. Try the Vimuttimagga/Vissudhimagga and the Long Discourses. However, if you are practicing Vipassana for 90 days or more and have no Insight, you aren't understanding or implementing proper technique. I've never seen or heard of a case of a human being practicing Mahasi Style mental notation (or body scanning/jhana/Anapani/whatever) properly and getting no Insight. Truly that would be hard to believe [understatement]. Even the first one - Mind and Body, would be a revolutionary change for one's abiding, not to mention everything from there to K.E.R.F./S.U.N.++. For some, it has worked without any "belief" in Buddhist stuff at all. The mind simply sees the 4 truths and 3 marks and jumps through to less stressful abiding, sometimes without the "user" realizing what transpired until major changes happen in the world and sense of self, leaving them torn and lighter. The technique for Mahasi Style dry Insight is blindingly simple. So much so that most aspirants imagine that they have to "do" way more and screw it up that way. They can't believe deep insight could be gained by simply noting impingements on the 5 aggrigates rapidly and accurately. I wasted a couple years at least overdoing and overthinking my practice...and especially seeking, even though I had already "found" everything. Now that confidence has arrived, reading is light and mainly serves the end of facilitating sharing with others and learning how to better communicate these factors. ...of course I would not necessarily recommend this stuff to kids anymore than the other junk discussed on here, but then that's up to the kid, not me.

Another pretty good source for Jhana and other concentration tips is in Daniel Ingrams Hardcore Dhamma practice book, I am paraphrasing the title atm. But then if you are going to use that, might as well jump right on into Vipassana, after a small amount of initial concentration/following breaths. However, his fire Kasina instructions are incredible and work wonders for many students to get into the Jhanas and more very rapidly. Nimitta based practices are like "Prednizone" for your Samadhi (concentration), if you don't mind some reflex/cultivated hallucination in your life, perhaps for a long time hahaha! Worth it!

Yoga? Body (or breath based) meditation IS raja yoga. If you can allow the choppier/courser vibes to settle in favor of more subtle movements you will get deeper, and gain insight. Then again it takes some yogis/yoginis a few years to purify/pacify those course vibrations. Apply the 4 truths to the feedback loops. No reason to take forever if you are mindful of what is happening with your attention, and what attitudes lead to letting go of tension. Sounds like what Therevada buddhism maps as Jhana. The experience if vastly more powerful than orgasms however, even multiple/tantric (well, tantric could be an exception at times, but that is for Insight.) Jhana is a concentration practice, which if I am not incorrect, some TIbetan practitioners also attain via different but similar techniques. See Leigh Brasington's Right Concentration - Practical Guide to the Jhanas, or The Vissudhimagga/Vimmutimagga for the hardcore details/instructions. These practices, when used for more than just simple craven "pleasure feeding", build discernment, sharpening "Manjushri's Sword." Valuable skills can be built, such as learning the difference between discernment and delusion/hindrance....Makyo and Kensho, or peace vs. fear and disaster. Plus the kind of surrender needed for full Jhanic absorption is good human training for A&P or Magga Phala, if one chooses to find these maps useful in their work. On the other hand, some only use Jhana for pleasure seeking, and fail to see the insights, don't gain discernment, and worse -- use Jhana to escape responsibility from life's grit by hiding in Bliss. So I'd keep an eye on that, since that's not the path (out of suffering). Metta! -B

Did not watch the vid, but the top joke is flawless. -metta

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I find these factors (inquiry/VIpassana) to be self-supportive for the most part as well, at least in certain stages of development. I started daily meditation with a Samadhi focused practice (8 Jhanas at a medium level, Metta, etc.), several years ago, but my first teacher and I quickly saw that I was using those toys and "attainments" to re-self and stagnate. Mahasi style practice for 3 years straight has sorted that out, but the way has been rough (as it probably should be). One eventually sees the mind follow after most traps and cravings and not so skilled entrainments. Also, the purification Vipassana practice gives is incredible if one sticks to the basic technique, in its daily dose or constantly if possible. I will keep the weekly retreat advice for use as soon as the body is capable. For myself as a westerner, faith was originally a problem due to over education (beliefs/conditioning) so Ecclecticism moved in. While I learned a bit about Generalized Mysticism through a broad research pattern, there emerges a tendancy toward hacking over and over again at the branches of the tree rather than a sharp honed skill set that cuts the root. Metta, -Brett

Oh, that pain. My teacher gives me gold and I transmute it into shit. Everytime it seems like. I'm often like the legend of Midas in reverse. I suppose we should also wonder, "Where is the bad shit?" Both? Non-dual. The antidote burns up in its own ground -- rest, pow! Gone. Watch out for the trap of preventing the little guy from having some "fun" due to fearing the next abyss/moha/delusion. All these traps bear my blood stains. So you'll cycle forever in the Tao, but maybe somehow grow from the struggle for balance. I'm babbling, sorry Sri.

There are probably infinite ways to "unpack" Nasargadatta's work. In my practice, now, I can sum up how it feels like he helped(s): After reading certain passages in his work, the possibility that thoughts could slip off the mind as "not me, not mine" was created. Once created, that possibility interleaved with the Vipassana/Therevada practice I was already doing and thoughts really do slip off the mind and fail to be grasped. More and more this seems to be the default, but inconstancy reigns surpreme as always. Adyashanti breaks down many of these concepts in perfect speech, which sometimes almost feels like Shaktipat over video here. Velcro wears out over time. Whew. -Brett

E.O. WIlson also popularized the idea that all Magesteria would tunnel into each other to eventually be understood holistically as a unity at some point in human history...at least I am pretty sure that is the case if memory does serve.

Sounds like you are have reasons to be confident in your meditation abilities, although I too am merely a student of reality humbly trying to share. Eventually, you will/or may attain to a level of mindfulness where you see potential becomings of emotional states and whole "monkey-mind" stories, bubble up from "the source" in the present moment, and you may experience the usual grasping release from story rather than the usual contraction. In any case, this will come and go and ultimately disappoint, and if so the "search" may continue. Ultimately, the ego fades away from one's imaginary routine when it sees it can never "win" or be "free", and lets go in the manner in which you have designed it. Or there could be the experience of years and years of tug of war/arm wrestling with sticky beliefs that keep pulling the old hope traps out...or however you experience and attempt to discuss it. A wise man once told me it was often the case that the sense of self idea must be worn out over time like a pair of old shoes, often in spite of great Insight or beyond. Many teachers and students alike claim that "mindfulness alone is curative". Sounds good, but it's a bullshit dream if you know the standard way the mind works according to the findings of most yogis. Contact occurs only *after* the mind has extended a fabrication (which depends on belief in a false sense of self), which means you are neck deep in the "bull" prior to any knowing period. This is why Buddhists discuss and gain insight regarding Right View - The 4 truths and the Tilikhana (3 characteristics of cond. reality) prior to contact with the unconditioned. So my teachers have warned me about the trap of finding exactly what I want via the search (eg. the ego wants immortality as itself, and many other "toys"). If "the dream" autocorrects through awareness alone (a Vedanta doctrine/dogma) then there's some potential wisdom right there. You are fabricating "the dream" and looking for reality...so if the dream self repairs, then maybe you have an insight about the healing properties of illusion/moha. Of course, the Buddhist doctrine makes the assumption that the user is looking for freedom from fundamental and other (self-survival based) suffering. With right view in place, Sati Sampajanna autocorrects for this. Monkey mind is no problem when its arising, dwell, and passing are all seen within mindfulness, then its just another sensation, not you, not yours. What I try to study closest is which stories, hindrances, and "needs" make me crave and drop mindfulness long enough to go hypnogogic or get caught up in story in any way. A super realized teacher once told me: If you aren't in MIndfulness, you are in story. Sorry about having to pull so much spiritual ego out for this lip flapping session. I guess I didn't feel I had a Sangha and for the first couple of years of Vipassana exertion, it was hard not having anyone besides "The Guru" to discuss shop with in meditation (they are often too smart to get reeled into that), but in the long run it was best and these kinds of things are mainly a distraction and food for something that already has plenty of sustanance. Indeed an hour is a great sit, whether you are noting or working on your Concentration in Samadhi. Much metta friend, don't take any of this too seriously, since its whole purpose is to eventually land you in a position where you enjoy life, while not taking it seriously to tragic proportions. -Brett PS: To be succinct: "Skillfully trained Mindfulness is curative."

Nice. -b

Ok, this looks like it could be a "non-duality war" and thus against Leo's sticky rule. I should risk becoming a "Zen Devil - What is it?" and comment anyway. ... For me, it seems like this conundrum can be resolved within inconstancy via keeping a mindful eye on balance. What is meant here is, as one lives and creates daily experience, there is an intuition of taking life too seriously (ruining it on that polarity slip) and/or not seriously enough. So one side of the dichotomy tends to attract only contraction, while the other side tends to fixation/grasping and/or expansion or even vice versa. Some folks/beings seem to be naturals at this kind of abidance and others have to "think about it" or extend a fabrication for the Insights to reach maturation, and even then the work goes on and on, with daily practice recommended until the body conks out++. "Learning == Behavior Change", and that's for damn sure an experience many of us ought to readily relate to. Metta, -b "You....painted my entire world, but 'I', don't have the turpentine to clean what You have soiled..." -Bad Religion

Be careful what you wish for...include caution for how you label and interpret events. Force nothing, but sometimes that feeling that we can mislabel as an "enemy" is actually a friend in disguise. Of course, we can't drop resistance until we can, and that's a lesson I had to learn by getting my ass handed to me hundreds of times. In retrospect, it's easy to "shoot skeet" and see that the "me" that feared fear itself was able to be seen through, but only by living, not doing. Tragically I used to give beings bunk instructions, in an unethical and unskillful way, failing to understand that they can't listen (not that they wouldn't like to) and they must live a unique opening. Regarding a "panic attack", someday you could design a contemplation along the lines of: Panic Attack - What is it? -b PS: In the meantime...what about a being who has come the path to a point where such an encounter could be useful, but the present no longer obliges so easily. hmmm...