UnbornTao

Thank you. Wouldn't taking meaning to be a bad thing also be an assessment of meaning? The way you talked about it gave me the impression that you might be viewing it that way. I agree with your second sentence. But notice how messy it can get: it seems as though we perceive (experience) meaning. But perceiving something precludes meaning, since what this process provides us with is meaningless sensory data. An additional activity (or activities) has to take place for meaning to be experienced. Without meaning, what is there? I'd say whatever is experienced, but without the context of meaning - objects, perception, a body, relationship, movement. I'd like to know your thoughts on this. Making these kinds of assertions doesn't help much, does it? (Unless you know what you're talking about.) They tend to shut down investigation before it even begins. We could claim that everything is an illusion, that nothing is, or that everything is real. Yet regardless of which position we take, we continue to recognize something we call meaning. We take it very seriously; in fact, we structure our lives around it. So, it isn't necessarily a simplistic matter. I'm trying to push us into our experience.

I like the idea.

The point is that the experience isn't happening now; you're imagining that it will, and it is an scenario you don't want to experience - hence the fear. If you wanted to experience it, or if you were willing to go through it - no matter what it is - fear couldn't arise. Play around with this. Choose something minor yet commonplace, like taking a cold shower. Make it real in your mind - be afraid of doing that. Then ask yourself: Could the fear exist if you were truly willing to go through such an ordeal? What if you didn't imagine the unwanted experience at all, or didn't create a future in your mind?

@Someone here Okay, let's use a different approach: Can you be afraid when you're willing to go through the experience you're imagining might happen in the future? No need for yes or no answers, just consider it.

Again, the only way a perspective can come to exist is as a limitation. That's what a perspective is. Where would you put yourself on something that is allegedly unlimited? If it is some place, as you seem to assume, then it must be located somewhere, and thus be limited. Besides, what is the "yourself" you're taking about? If it is separate from the thing it needs to reach, then isn't that also relative? Also, I suspect the nature of that entity isn't clear either, which is fine - we do not know. An absence of limits, we can imagine, doesn't look like anything, and there's nothing that can be "done" within it, so to speak. It wouldn't be some thing, and you mention lots of something's.

How convenient for you. The question is intended to invite contemplation rather than whatever immediately comes to mind.

You fucking shouldn't! It is more of a rhetorical device. Seriously though, what you do is you question it, share the results of that process, then question again - until you make a new observation, become aware of something, and keep going until you have insight. Then, can you share that wisdom. And even then, listeners will still have to repeat that process for themselves in order to be able to reproduce the insight, anyway. And you pay attention to feedback. For example, can you stop producing a minor form of fear that you used to experience, such as resisting something fairly inconsequential? This takes the topic out of the intellect and makes it real.

Okay, problem unsolved.

Insight is the goal. The topic is not simplistic at all. For example: What is your experience of meaning? Do you see it differently now? Isn't it the case that meaning is not limited to objects? Can you see that it is not merely a model but rather that your day-to-day experience is imbued with meaning? Do we pay any attention at all to things outside of this self-referential relationship ("what does it mean to me")? How come it is quite an important (see, meaning again) aspect of life?

But does God have a flan for me? Seriously though, the above assertion is probably a conclusion of yours. It might be true or not, but that's what we're exploring. Those claims are also likely to be misunderstood. Purpose itself might not be a fact of the universe, but it still operates on our lives. It may be invented as an activity. Besides, taking meaningless as a negative thing is still a meaningful assessment, although a negative one. That would be coming from the same paradigm of meaning. In truth, it wouldn't be negative nor positive. What are those things? In this case, we're trying to tackle meaning, so what is it?

@Breakingthewall A perspective is itself a limit. You keep talking of limitation as if it were bad or wrong, but it is precisely what allows for potential to be actualized. For something to exist in the first place, it must be limited. Potential and limitation are two sides of the same coin. I'm derailing the thread.

- The Surangama Sutra.

J. Krishnamurti - real spiritual teacher https://youtube.com/@KFoundation

"Pass the ketchup, please."

@Someone here Ask yourself whether you're actually willing to investigate these things, or whether you just want to hold on to a belief, or have your preconceptions validated. An intellectual understanding doesn't cut it, does it? It isn't enough because it doesn't provide experiential access to what the emotion is - only theories or stories about the experience. We often confuse identifying an emotion with knowing what it is for real. Think about it: you're afraid pretty much all the time, despite your ability to identify and "understand" fear. But in reality you take it for granted. So yes - what is it? This is meant to be contemplated, not only thought about casually.

It occurred to me to share this quote, not sure why:

Not me!

@Someone here What the fuck is fear? Start with that.

We could look at fear itself rather than at its specific manifestations. For example, see if you can actually feel afraid when you are completely present (whatever that means). Without imagining a future, fear cannot exist. Or: Can fear occur if you are fully willing to go through the experience you are imagining? Now, talking about it and understanding it intellectually is one thing; making an experiential shift is another.

Sounds good. Contemplate what real openness is.

For sure.