UnbornTao

@vibv What I mean is that short of direct consciousness, the rest is at best unnecessary add-ons. Contemplation should be the main activity and not speculation. No matter what the mind comes up with relating to enlightenment, it is not it.

It's an unknown. Get enlightened first and save yourself the nonsense, because it is seriously bs.

Yes. On the other hand, to play devil's advocate, they invented democracy, and the argument could be made that our current society has declined in many ways. But I agree overall.

If it's an activity that you are doing (assuming, believing, holding as real), then you can stop doing it. Recognizing experientially the source of the activity itself would allow for the possibility of dropping it. Maybe. Something to look into.

Delaying instant gratification is hard to do. Clearly, you will go through pain and discomfort as you will not be acting out your habitual impulses. Doing that is a good training ground for this type of mindset. This practice builds up your resilience and makes pain an experience that is easier to confront.

Some of the early greeks were powerful thinkers, much more so than the average person of today. Outlines of Phyrrhonism is an excellent book on the principle of openness. Study it.

True. But consider emotions, for example. They occur "within" mind and are considered to be an aspect of it. Even then, they seem to be more than just memory. Something to look into.

I'd say avoid speculating. If you recognize that belief as an assumption, maybe you can then get free of it by means of realizing it is an activity you are doing. But it looks like you already got it as a belief. Just be honest whether it is an intellectual thing or experiential. Right now I'm doing the same work of uncovering deep-seated assumptions that I hold. Everyone seems to have this kind of core negative beliefs about themselves, like being incapable of life, unworthy, unlovable, etc. It's useful getting to the core of these as that allows for freedom from them.

@zurew Do you hold direct consciousness to be a real possibility for you? If not, why contemplate in the first place? Being convinced of new ideas is not all that we can do in this domain. Direct consciousness is possible, self-validating and true as there is no "separation" between what's true and you. There's no doubt about it. Sounds cute but consider it a possibility. You can grasp what you are. By the way, I'm not claiming to have achieved it, and don't believe others. This is truly a personal affair. Either one gets it or not. Study Ramana Maharshi's case for inspiration. Basically be open, contemplate, have several enlightenments.

Memory seems to be a minor aspect of mind. But no idea on my part either.

You're onto something. Good work. I suggest you keep looking at what's sourcing these assumptions. There might be more stuff to be realized there. But hey, you tell me.

No single key nor secret ingredient. Clarify your purpose and goals, work your ass off, use intelligent action and correction, fail faster.

Keep to the original thread.

That'd be a hell of a debate!

A debate may be engaged as a way to validate one's preconceptions, to gain social recognition, make the other wrong, get entertained, etc. It is not about serious questioning. Wanting to debate might be motivated by a very real and personal background sense that the truth of the matter is actually unknown, hence wanting to defend what each party assumes is true. Best to remain open. A good starting point would be to be honest and to call things by their name, call a worldview a worldview, a set of assumptions. Admit that it is something you believe in and not an experience of the truth; that remains presently unknown to you. This applies to any other philosophical perspective as well. What about turning the debate into a shared contemplation? That'd be fruitful.

Would those scientists above be willing to acknowledge an assumption when (and if) they see one?

He couldn't listen to it though. I'm just pointing that out.

Imagine if you acted similarly towards others. Anyone can be mean and petty. I don't think sex is of much relevance here although it may play a role.

Not necessarily. You can actually not gather beliefs. Indeed you could make a practice of dispelling rather than accumulating, them. Skill is whatever it is, but it's not a belief. It is grounded on an accurate perception of the condition of things. Of course you have a choice in the matter. Whose choice would it be then? As a matter of fact, most people stop breakthrough learning early in life once enough of survival is handled. Learning isn't about belief either, although you can learn (adopt, perhaps) new beliefs. The etymology of "discipline" is learning. So it often requires hard work, failure and correction. Rarely does it go smoothly. However I do acknowledge that learning can take place in a way that requires less strain sometimes. This is a different conversation unrelated to awakening, one about relative things such as learning, etc.

Could be, and yet it's likely the most sensible and grounded one.

Almost everyone haha

@Rishabh R cool

No.

Why? Isn't there a conflation here of consciousness with something relative such as ability, or state? What if you were able to use your body more skilfully after enlightenment? Maybe you'd be able to walk straight for the first time!

How come every civilization throughout history has fallen? I'm extracting juicy insights from the series Foundation on this matter. Asimov was a smart fellowñ.