Telepresent

@rush Hello! Do you have an objective in meditation? Are you aiming to calm your mind, or to disidentify from ego, or to reach enlightenment, or something else? The reason I ask (and I'll point out here that I am definitely not a meditation expert) is that my experience with different methods of meditation suggests that they offer different experiences, resonances, and responses in/from me. So I find SDS incredibly powerful, but in the sense of seeing how fucking relentless ego is in terms of screaming at my body. I find vipassina incredibly powerful, in the sense of seeing how I have no control whatsoever over my thought process. I find embodied meditations incredibly powerful, in noting how much embodied sensory data I usually filter out. I find breath counting incredibly powerful, in the sense that my focus drifts at the drop of a hat. And so on. I'm always wary about suggesting that "x technique = y result", because we're all within our own subjective experience, and I think the great thing about this work is that you get to customise it. Which isn't actually something you read about that much. But look at it this way: you know what you want better than anyone else here. You know what you experience better than anyone else here. You may look to us for suggestions or advice, but you are ultimately always making the decisions. So take a breath and listen to what you think is best for you. Keep exploring, keep learning, but also keep filtering through your own sense of right/wrong, helpful/un-helpful.

Great! Congratulations on recognising this stuff in yourself: it's bloody hard to do, and you've achieve something fantastic, so well done! As you suggest, though, you've hit the tip of an iceberg: if you are interested in keeping moving forwards, all I can say is keep going! You've done good, now keep it up! Question everything, including the realisations you've had, and keep us in the loop!

Hey @100rockets - wondering if you've had any thoughts since starting this thread? You mention having written a plan with more urgent matters: given a few days' reflection, how's that looking?

Further

Glad to be of help! I've played around with all sorts of systems, and software, and self-management techniques. Most of them I've dropped because they just weren't right for me. But those that did stick have made all the difference. The more you can try out, the better sense you get of what works for you, and what doesn't. That's actually a large part of the battle: people try to sell you on "do this one thing and xyz", but that thing may just not work for you. Work out what does, and you're in a much better place. And you can only work that out by trying as much as you can, and learning from your experiences

@abrakamowse Learning to use Excel properly was a game-changer: it's allowed me to make my own calendars, schedules (short-term, mid-term, long-term), track finances, all sorts. Really good for practical admin. There have been times when I've needed to be really strict on myself in terms of how I use my time, and in those times I've sometimes made intricately detailed personal calendars - down to the half-hour - of what I'm going to be doing each day in the coming week, from waking to sleeping (including putting in down-time!) I find that really helps break down the sense of 'so much to do where do I start?' into something attainable. I'm well practiced enough in that now that I can do 'softer' versions these days (I just listed the stuff I need to do today, in priority/chronological order, in a basic Word document, which is basically the same thing but less detailed). I like electronic formats though: as you get stuff done you can either change its colour, or delete it, which can feel very rewarding. For one of the major projects (4+ years) I've been working on, I made myself a time-sheet in Excel: I worked out how many hours per week I should be doing, how much holiday I would allow myself per year, and then on a day-by-day basis track how many hours I'm doing. That way I can see when I'm doing well, and when I'm falling behind. I'm attaching a demo version with some random figures thrown in at the top of the first sheet so you can see what I mean. And, when all else fails, having a commitment to other people does wonders! Deadlines where people expect to see something, or for you to have produced something, or you need to have a meeting to update your progress, or present your results... depending on the discipline, this may or may not be so easy to incorporate (it's sort of built into the work I'm doing) but it can really light a fire under you when otherwise you wouldn't bother! These things need to be specific and deadlined, though: there's an odd phenomenon where telling people - say, your friends - that you're going to do something makes you less likely to do it, so watch out for that! Lord of Time demo.xls

Maybe

I will also point out that there have been points where one thing is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. Such as when I was suicidal, or when I had to stop drinking but couldn't. Sometimes, dealing with one thing supports the rest. But if you feel like focus on one thing is damaging to another area, that's something to keep an eye on

"No battle plan survives contact with the enemy" - Helmuth von Moltke This is very, very important. Plans are crucial. The recognition that plans will fall apart, and you will be scrambling to hold them together, moreso. Yes, I have plans that constantly need re-assessing and re-addressing on a day-by-day, week-by-week, and so on basis. But this is where the difference between strategy and tactics really comes into the fold. Strategy is long-term, and any approach to it is legitimate. Since I was 14 or so, I knew I wanted to work in the theatre. I'm now 31, and just about at a point where I might be able to make a living as a professional director. Between then and now were multiple education streams, jobs, opportunities for learning and experience, massive risks, and points where I was balled up on the floor crying because it felt like my life and my dreams were over. What has been the one constant, that has held me on track through all that? A target: I want to work as a fully-paid theatre-maker. That shit isn't easy, and it's a whole different thing to say "I can live with that" when you're 16, than when you're 26. Now, for the first half of my years since leaving university until now, I did fuck all to achieve this goal. I had no strategy, no idea of how I was going to approach my dream, just this sense that somehow I needed (and deserved) it. Then, when I was 24, I suddenly had the realisation that if I didn't make it happen, it never would. So I made a play. Since that moment, everything I have done has been based on one question: "how does this help me get there?" I've turned down and left jobs because they haven't helped. I've taken jobs which involve stupid amounts of travel because they give me experience. I've pushed myself through those many, many, many moments of crying on the floor, because I've somehow understood that I just could not stop. And I've made really, really stupid mistakes. I look back now, and I recognise how many of my tactics could have been way, way better. But you know what else? I look back and see a life that 24-year-old me would be profoundly jealous of. And as I've achieved, my strategic goals have grown, and changed. Become more ambitious. Continue to grow. I'm not sure what my point is, other than to say you lament slow results. I know it doesn't help you right now in the 'wanting' stage, but slow results are still results, and very very important. Ultimately, if you feel like you neglect an area (such as health or relationships), I would call that bad strategy. Don't neglect the long term in pursuit of short-term satisfaction, and keep your eye on the goal(s).

I'm not sure that's true (self-depricating humour tends to be based on the mutual recognition of flaws, not other people laughing at your flaws), but even if it were it's not your responsibility to try to deal with other people's ego strength

Since I was a teenager (we're talking a good 15-20 years ago now ) I was in various stages, levels, and interpretations of depression. I've been through many different treatments, and a couple of years ago FINALLY hit the recognition that I was responsible for dealing with this once and for all. So I started looking for all the self-help material that I could, which led me to Actualized.org. I started watching at the point where he was still posting videos of 10-20 minutes, and I devoured them by the bucket-load. The thing that came across from listening to HUNDREDS of these videos, was the inescapable conclusion that this was a lifestyle choice: I was either going to dedicate my life to dealing with my bullshit, or I wasn't. So I did. The thing that's always been critical in Leo's videos, though, is his insistence that you do the work for yourself. That's what really helped me. After years and years and years of looking for a magic book, or website, or therapy, these videos finally made me buckle up and recognize that if I want to change, I need to change.

Actually, re-reading this: how would you describe the ego mechanism, @DoubleYou? I always useful to get these things out of my head by writing them down.

Screw it - a boy can always eat, even if he has to run laps to burn off the calories...

Good, great, wonderful! Probably the only reason I'm so wary about anything that looks like an answer (or an attempt to short-cut to one) is that I've fallen into many belief traps myself, so I hope I can help people avoid the same thing! Motivation, though, holy mackerel that's the critical factor, and however it works for you dig into it by the bucketful! You know, I'm not sure I agree with you there. I know where you're coming from, and perhaps when I get 'there' (yes, yes, I know...) I may agree with that statement; but right now I find the fact that I want to KNOW, not believe, not imagine, not create a working model, but to strip fucking everything apart until I KNOW - even if that means tearing apart what I thought I knew yesterday - that's my motivation. Don't dismiss wanting to know the answer until you KNOW it's 'wrong' to want to know the answer. Don't take anyone else's word for it. I'm sure as hell not going to. Huh, that feels really weird to read - probably because I don't feel advanced at all! But if I come over that way... that's good news for me, I suppose! Getting on-topic, though, you're absolutely right again: you have to believe before you can not-believe, otherwise you would never do the work necessary to start questioning belief! I still stand by the idea that - for some, at least - the danger of asking for definitions of enlightenment is that you're digging another pit to fall into at some point, but as long as you keep questioning, questioning, questioning, and you know at some point that pit needs to be addressed, it seems you can't go far wrong

Can we have a little more info? How do you meditate (what sort of positions)? What kind of pain, located where in the body?

You know, I'm a bit inconsistent with this forum. I come and go, chime in like I know everything, and then make apologies for knowing nothing. But one of the things that really bothers me is that there seems to be this ongoing stream of definition. All the time people asking 'what does this mean?', 'is this enlightenment?', 'is this true?', 'is enlightenment x or y?' And you know what I see in all of that? Attempts at definition. New models of reality being built with every word. Now, don't get me wrong, I've done the same thing loads myself, and @YoungSeeker is absolutely right: it is a good question. But it's a question you have to ask yourself, over and over and over. You have to pull apart everything that supports that question as even being a question. Do you have any idea how many assumptions, beliefs, and expectations are holding that question up? You need to pull every single one of them down. Stop talking about ego: work out what ego is, and talk about it from your own point of view. What do you mean by disidentification? 'Not identifying'? Ok, well what constitutes identifying, then? And with what? With ego as you have stripped back and fully understood? Or with a more vague, undefined idea you carry around that has attached itself to the label 'ego'? Apologies if this comes off as harsh or rude: it's not intended to. But I think @DoubleYou starts this thread with a really important idea, but the reliance on an 'answer' to the question asked is ultimately counterproductive.

It is a useful power to have, but it's a short-term strategy. Good for dealing with moment-by-moment issues, not life as a whole. It feels to me like you're making thought into an enemy - which is actually adding another layer of thought (i.e. thoughts = bad). Probably not surprising - I'd be surprised to find anyone working this stuff out who hasn't done that - but ultimately you need to make peace with what thoughts are, and then decide whether or not you are going to take the hard road to dis-identify from them. You're doing good. Keep going.

As a kid, you had fewer mental models about how the world worked. Now you have many. The trick is to learn to see them as that: models, not truth. This actually ties in with Leo's latest video on beliefs, but rather than going and watching that, I'd recommend you sit down with a piece of paper, and start listing what you KNOW to be true, and then start interrogating it: asking yourself if it's REALLY, REALLY true. Can you argue against it? Can you look at it from another perspective? Can you be CERTAIN that your thoughts are correct? And keep going and keep going and keep going. As much as whatever thought-wondering you have while you eat might be what 'is in the present moment', it's not really the thoughts that are your problem right now: it's your emotional reaction and attachment to them. Now, I have a big respect for meditation, but I also seem to disagree with a lot of people in that I feel meditation on its own is not enough. That it's through conscious and intentional inquiry, investigation, and deconstruction of our experience that we can come to disabuse ourselves of our belief systems, and decide whether we want to re-program our thoughts (so we can get back to that kid-like state), or move beyond them. I worry that, for a lot of people, meditation is too unstructured or random (without a 'debriefing' period where you can consolidate your experiences) to be able to do this. What's my point? You're thinking a lot while you meditate, that is frustrating you, which leads to more thinking, and clearly meditation on its own is a bit of a painful cycle. I wonder if you should either step back to some more fundamental self-help work (to get past various limiting beliefs, etc.), or if you should investigate other forms of self-inquiry other than (or to accompany) meditation.

Hello all the people! So... I hit a realisation and due to the nature of it: a) don't want to describe it, and b) any description would be false. Suffice it to say it was about how much I rely upon words, and what words mean and where words come from and what words REALLY are (maybe... but I suspect I'm naive on this point!) What led me to this was the challenge to what I expect Enlightenment to even mean. As an exercise based on my experience, I would encourage people to interrogate every word they have that they think is important ("job", "work", "family", "love", "enlightenment", "truth", etc.) and just spend some time examining what is there. Thanks for your time x

Thanks. Telepresent now gonna play

And honest emotion is a whole other thing

I entirely get what you're saying. About translation. About there being a deeper layer. But I feel what most of what I have been reacting to in life HAS been word based. Learned and translated and taken as fact. And the removal of fact from words is Revolutionary. And the words we apply to emotions (including "I", which opens a whole can of worms) Is subjective and limited And the reason I choose to type like this (and maybe you?) Is to disconnect thoughts into constituent parts and words And right now I'm identifying them because I've only just realised that the world I relate to is translated through language and concept before I even realise and that mostly I respond to words with words which means to concept with ideal concept and not to is with is. I guess

@Mr Lenny I would recommend Do Nothing in combination with something that allows you to actively challenge your reality. Do Nothing can be an increibly powerful experience, and can make you feel great, (and please read everything I say here as one traveller to another: I am no expert nor teacher) my experiences with it in an attempt to reach a greater understanding of my experience / consciousness depend upon something else to provide a contextual understanding within which I can appreciate Do Nothing. For me, that's self-inquiry/spiritual autolysis. I suspect Do Nothing on its own is a very powerful meditation. But if you're trying to break down You, I doubt it will do it on its own. Still, that's one amateur to another

Hello! I want to precurse this by saying that my intention in replying is to enhance discourse, not to argue. I say that because I have seen too many discussions on technique, understanding, or whatever, turn into arguments. I don't pretend to know everything and can only talk from my perspective, and I hope that by sharing I can not only give you an added perspective, but I can encourage you to share your experiences with me and give ME an added perspective So... from my point of view, the idea you offer of self-inquiry is very limited, and limiting, a I think that - by the way you describe it - you recognise that to some degree. The problem of self-enquiry is that it needs to be continuous, ongoing, and constantly negating itself. You need to always treat the answer you came to yesterday as questionable at best, and false at worst. You need to accept that you are going to become stuck again, and again, and again, and again, and that becoming stuck is not a PROBLEM of the process, but an inherent part of it. And you need to accept that you have been wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and no matter how right you feel right now, that probably means that you are wrong right now. I have probably heard this best described by Jed McKenna's accounts of spiritual autolysis, but those are still very limited, as the self-enquiry/autolysis account is inherently subjective and cannot actually describe the problem with description iteself. So I suppose my argument here is that the description you have offered of self-inquiry suggests a very limited approach, most likely provoked by the fact it's bloody hard! I've offered McKenna as a reference here, primarily because it's about writing which allows you a separation from subject/object of your writing/enquiry, which is much harder when you try to keep it all mental/meditative. I should point out that I have skewed away from McKenna's apparent 'instructions' on many points, and taken time to find what is right for me to deconstruct me. Which nobody can tell me / work out other than me. If you've rejected self-inquiry, I would suggest it's worth another approach. I've recognised things through it that I cannot imagine I would hit through meditation other than through luck

Hi all, I know this is basic and intellectually obvious, but sometimes we need visceral reminders. I've just been watching a docu-drama about the Sept. 11 attacks from within the WTC. The moment at 54:45 minutes caught me. You don't know what today will bring. Make sure you are doing what you want. Know what it is and find out how to get to it