Zenterus

@LordFall I'm not sure if she had a mental disorder, but she definitely carries a lot of trauma from her childhood and has major abandonment issues. Crazy thing is that she looks super put together, feminine, sweet and absolutely gorgeous. But then again, if she looked like she eventually behaved then these kinds of people would never have victims. As far as the systems thing, I completely agree. If you want to be of most value to people, you have to have some form of status or power first. Let's hope there won't be a next time, but I definitely will keep my emotions on lock and ruthlessly let people like that fend for themselves rather than get dragged into their drama. Oh and not having any friends and family because everyone hates them is added on my "red flags" list.

@Ulax If by veteran you mean PTSD. Yes. @Hojo That was definitely an element, for sure. But this girl had literally no one, so she got super attached to me super quickly. @Artsy Amen. @Valach I appreciate the empathy, brother.

Hey brother! I totally get the discomfort that comes with going more indirect. It is something you can improve on with practise -- which is worth it cause it tends to yield better results long term -- but if thats not really your stylr, going direct is totally valid as well. In my humble opinion though, this opener will disqualify you from most really attractive girls (which i know thats your target demographic based on previous posts of yours). If you're gonna go direct, I suggest you come up with a more unique opener. Some examples are: "Hey [pause] I like your face ;)" "Excuse me.. I have to get going but I need to know: Who. Are. You??" [Mostly subcommunicated intention] "Hey you. You're fucking adorable, you know that? Who are you?" "You can't just walk past me looking like that." These are just quick examples off the top of my head. Obviously come up with your own that are congruent to you. But the "hey you're cute" opener is too overused, too generic, shows very little personality and lumps you up with all the other "chodes" that girls reject on a daily basis.

@Hojo I have never seen a single comment of yours that has been value giving, constructive, throught provoking or anything along those lines. You just come across as a blabbering troll, to be honest. If this is what "God consciousness" leads to, then no thanks.

@Ulax I'm totally with you when it comes to what you said about being in a catch-22. Advanced guys who have gone through the journey and came out with a strong frame and strong subcommunications often forget that they first had to go through the journey to get the reference experiences that eventually made that shift for them. I have a friend that I'm sort of "mentoring" unofficially. He's younger by 4-5 years, and he's been in the game for 3 years (compared to my 10). When I go out with him, I can clearly see all his low value behaviours, his neediness emanating from every pore of his body and how his behaviour massively emphasizes his low self esteem even though he studies game a lot (big fan of Julien, this guy). However, I often have to hold myself back from giving him advice such as what @Valach states above because it's just not useful to him. You can't skip steps on the journey. It's easy for us to speak about letting it go, trusting in yourself, having self esteem and a sense of love for yourself, but those are all lessons we learned *through* pick up and he has to go on his journey. So whenever I'm with this friend, I nudge him in the right direction by asking him super deep questions such as "Why are you in the game? Like, what are you hoping to truly get out of this? Is there a way to fulfill that need for yourself?" Or "Why did you approach her like that? Like, how are you perceiving yourself in comparison to the girl, that inspired that approach, you think?" And more such questions. But I also do give him technical advice too. Because, again, @Valach, @Miguel1 and I, probably have solid subcommunications because we internalized attractive behaviours through massive repetition and also positive reinforcement from the women. So, ignoring all that history and telling him to "just let go and be yourself" is unhelpful at best and condescending at worst. So yeah, I will check him on his subcommunications, I will let him know when he is being too polarizing and unrelatable, or too reactive, etc. You have to meet people where they're at.

"I want to pay for your future abortion." I literally said this multiple times in the past. Not as an opener though. "You look like a ghetto nerd." This is an opener. Very polarizing, especially during the day, so you have to know how to handle whatever challenge she throws at you and be able to reframe the opener as a positive rather than offensive. "Hey look.. i just want to be honest, I saw you checking me out and I just wanna let you know, I'm not looking for anything okay? But I am flattered and you're interesting so hi. But again, no expectation aight?" Delivered with a cheeky, playful smile. No matter how she pushes back, always maintain the frame that she was checking you out. Act as if her denying it is actually her being shy and not bold enough to own it.

@Miguel1 The more I learn about you the more I see that we're kindred spirits (no homo). I'm an ENFJ myself, actually. I personally dont feel like people here are attacking you. It seems to me that they're basically saying "just be yourself" in a way that comes across very socially uncalibrated lol. Remember, most people on this forum dont have the social reps that we have under our belts, so they lack real high quality social/dating experience and finesse. As far as the loneliness aspect is concerned, I would encourage you to contemplate what inner need is being fulfilled for you when you do socialize. What are you missing when you're alone? I suspect the root need is deeper than just not being lonely. If you can identify it/them, you can perhaps work on giving it to yourself. For example, for many years, the reason I was so addicted to women was because women provided a sense of adventure in my life that I needed. But when I started taking myself out on solo adventures, the desire to outsource that to a woman faded. If its intimacy that you crave, you can also give that to yourself. And i dont mean by fapping lol. Like real emotional intimacy with yourself, where you treat yourself as if you're your own best friend, where you listen and trust and show real love to yourself, like how someone who really loves you would. But first, you have to identify what the need underneath it all is.

@Miguel1 I only read the first page on this thread, so far and I'm in a very similar place as you but with a bit more clarity on the path forward. If you want to attract an aesthetically beautiful yet conscious woman, you cannot do it from the "game" paradigm. Game is designed to attract the most attractive women in large quantities, however, what you're looking for is quality, thus you must proceed differently. I'm at a stage, just like you, where social games are boring to me, sexual validation is meaningless and the promise of real intimacy with a quality woman is my only real motivation to date. But to attract such a woman, you cannot water yourself down for the masses. You can't play social games. You have to be so authentically polarizing and so niche and have such a strong "buyer frame", that you romantically alienate/disqualify 99.9% of women out there so that you only relate to women who share your values. Additionally, your lifestyle should be fully immersed in the types of social activities that are aligned with your values. So, if you want a deeply spiritual woman, she's probably not in the club. She might be at a creative workshop, or salsa class, or in the park reading a book. You have to zero in on a social life that maximizes your chances of running into this type of girl. But, another insight is you cannot go to these social events/gatherings with the intention of meeting women. It cannot work that way. You should be going to have genuine fun and because the lifestyle adds a nourishing element in your life. Make friends with the people you meet there, build a little tribe with you at the helm. That way, you're not only maximising your own social lifestyle from a fulfillment perspective but also increase the chances of either meeting your girl by chance or through someone within your tribe. I had the above insights when high as fuck on weed, contemplating my relationship to dating in the future and a voice, coming from deep in my subconscious, said the following: "Do what Zenterus does fully. Go to where Zenterus would go. And engage with people while they're there as Zenterus would, and it will all work out." But you have to accept that you will probably meet 200-300 women before you meet even just a few who only QUALIFY for you to get to know further. And even then, you might realise you're not compatible in some real way down the line. But if you accept that you're looking for something rare and exceptional, then the socializing to results ratio shouldn't be disheartening.

@LordFall I hate having to qualify myself but fuck it, seems like your inquiry is sincere so lets talk about it. Bro, I have 10 years of pickup experience. That includes social circle, cold approach and online dating. I don't know my exact body count, but it's definitely up there, and I've attracted GORGEOUS women of all kinds of archetypes (ice queens, local mini instagram celebrities, goth baddies, submissives, etc, of all ages and ethnicities). I could pull at least one new girl home a week if I cared to do so. And when I used to actively do social circle game, I wasnt attracting people who were interested in business or some other common interest. No. My entire social circle revolved around ME. I was the leader and everyone just wanted to spend time with me because I was providing the most value emotionally, confidence-wise, validation-wise, etc. I understand attraction VERY VERY well and I've gone through every phase in the journey -- such as the technical stage, the strategic stage, the hunting stage, the farming stage, the natural stage, the letting go stage etc. When I say the things that I say, I'm saying them from an experienced perspective. Im not some dude thats just sitting in this forum theorizing this stuff with you guys. The reason it took me so many years to quit PUA was because I was out here fucking, consistently, hot girls on a weekly/monthly basis and letting that type of dopamine source go was not an easy task. In fact, it would have been very easy if I wasn't getting anywhere with it. I'm not discrediting your strategies, dude. You misunderstand me. Clearly they work. But what I am saying is that your current journey isn't leading you towards optimizing your strategies and your approach further. The journey is leading you towards realizing that all this work is fucking pointless, all the optimizing is pointless, the strategies are pointless because what you're pursuing is actually yourself THROUGH the women and until you skip the middle man, you'll never be fully fulfilled nor at your most powerful. It's very common that when I go out, girls are constantly staring at me, or giving me signals to approach, or inviting me to hang out with them, or escalating on me because they can feel it in their bones that I dont give a single fuck. The hottest woman I ever dated was a Croatian/Dutch beauty that had celebrities pursuing her, yet I had her in my single bed, in a 9 square meter room, begging me to have sex with her while I wanted to continue watching the Venom movie on my laptop. This is the kind of power that you get as a man when you stop caring and you let this shit go. You become irresistable because your true natural state as a man is STRENGTH. The only thing robbing you of that is your neediness and lack of self connection. When you truly embody this, setting boundaries is easy, being charismatic is easy, leading is easy, expressing yourself sexually is easy, everything just flows. Once you get in touch with WHY you're truly doing what you're doing and you learn how to give that to yourself, the performance finally ends and everything you ever wanted starts to come to you in abundance. @LordFall will just do what he does and the right women and men will just naturally be there. No strategy, no optimization, no work needed. Just pure screening. The mindfuck aspect of this is that when you truly reach this level, you dont even care about girls anymore. But you might not be there yet and that's okay. I doubt I would be where Im at if I didnt go through the journey first.

Very interesting point around sex drive because I actually do feel less horny now than I did when i was deep in pickup. In fact, I know somebody who also used to be obsessed with PUA and transcended it years before me and he also mentioned that when a person is wounded, their body tricks itself into feeling more lustful than it actually is in order to motivate itself to go out and get the validation that the subconscious wound craves. In retrospect, I can totally see that being the case.

From your paradigm it sure sounds like cope. When a fish hears the bird can breathe outside of the water, it thinks its delusional until it evolves to be able to do so as well or bares witness to it.

@LordFall Brother, what I'm about to say is gonna come across as if I'm talking down on you when I'm really not -- there's a lot that i respect about you based on what you shared about your dating journey. However, I've been where you're mentally and while it is true that working on your looks does get you better initial attraction online and in-person -- getting a hair transplant, for example -- it actually hinders your power long term because you're building an identity that's fueled by how attractive you are to women, which is weak at its core. One of my biggest insights during my journey to transcend pickup was the fact that you cannot be at your most powerful as a man when you're valuing how attractive you are to women. The most powerful, attractive men are men who dont give a fuck and are, therefore, more unique, polarizing and cultivated as individuals because they cultivated their own personality according to THEIR values, interests, sense of humour, etc. This is what makes a leader. A man who is so unique, authentic and resolute in his being that some might think he is weird, or unrelatable, but others are completely mesmerized by him. You cannot be a man like that when caring about "how attractive you are" to women. Yes, work on yourself. Have basic hygiene. Groom yourself. Make some money so that you're not homeless, etc etc. Take care of the very basics, but after that, just cultivate the experience of YOU. You cannot do that while caring how women perceive you. This is the type of "game" you develop after you transcend the desire to game or attract women or have a strong desire for sex. It's the ultimate frame control. You're one of one. You do this right and your biggest problem will be that communities and people start forming around you to such an extend that it resembles a cult.

Doesnt matter. What matters is how you're basing what you should be based on what you think women want, which makes you inherently unattractive to them.

You're right and wrong at the same time. In my 10 years of pickup experience, I've learned that women assess you HOLISTICALLY as a man with your high value BEHAVIOURS being the biggest attraction draw initially. Your lifestyle is actually secondary initially -- although it does play more of a role when you're together long-term. Now, it is actually easier to convey yourself in a high value way when you're indeed a high value guy who truly lives the part -- lifestyle, success, preselection -- but it isnt always the case that they come hand in hand. You can be broke and have the right mindsets and the right look and vibe and have an amazing abundance with women as a consequence. On the flip side, you can be rich and successful and be such a loser behaviourally -- such as not setting boundaries, not leading, being a pushover, ungrounded, etc -- and get used by women left and right because they dont respect you but you are useful because of your success. This is how you end up like Will Smith, or Jeff Bezos, or a very good looking guy who I knew back in my Uni days whose girlfriend would blatantly flirt with me in front of him. Of course, develop yourself, your fashion, your look, your money, your lifestyle, etc. All of those matter. But if your personality is weak, you will only get used.

How can something so biologically stimulating and enticing result in such shallow experiences? I've spent the last 10 years of my life fighting to satiate my Lust. A decade I've spent in the game: cold approaching, optimizing my dating and social media apps, building social circles, prospecting, sharpening my communication skills and learning about high value behaviors and flirting and escalation and so on and so forth. And I may have enjoyed only a handful of the vast experiences I've accumulated throughout my journey. I've written in this forum before about how I struggled so much to transcend the hedonistic player lifestyle and how it kept pulling me back in, despite leaving me more and more numb each time. Well, gentlemen and gentleladies, I'm happy to say that I genuinely feel like I've taken a huge step towards that direction. I'm holding myself back from saying that I've fully transcended it as not to jinx it However, with this new-found inner peace that I've finally realized within myself comes a lot of wisdom. These days, I spend my time studying, working, contemplating, enjoying the present and being. I don't feel a strong calling to fuck or to pursue women who I don't feel a particularly strong potential for a real genuine relationship with -- which basically means I'm not pursuing any women right now -- and, in fact, I seldom even watch porn or masturbate. Although when I do actually do those things... I notice an interesting phenomenon.. Despite me knowing that the pursuit of sexual and hedonistic desire is all smoke and mirrors through first hand experience, when watching porn or reading some erotica or fantasizing some hot scenario during acts of self-love, I still feel a part of me craving this overwhelmingly "sinful" lifestyle. A part of me glamorizes sex and its pursuit. It glamorizes the idea of partying and dealing with different girls and taking them home and using them for their body and having dirty unprotected sex and finishing up inside them or on their face or on their feet -- I'm a man of culture, you see -- and doing it all over again with young and old, hot and average, black and white and asian and tall and short and every permutation of woman that is out there. There's something so alluring to it. Thankfully, I have enough experiences and wisdom to know that that is only the more primal, impulsive, lizard-brain parts of my psyche speaking to me and I pay them no mind, yet it fascinates me how one of Reality's most tempting and biologically seductive aspects, is also one of its most unfulfilling and, eventually, self-destructive aspects, if engaged perpetually. Being that sex hits our most primal of instincts and releases dopamine and oxytocin and there's the power-elements, the validation, the intimacy, the "love" etc, etc, you'd think they'd be more to it; but in the end, it's almost like a cosmic joke. It's like the Devil pranking you, or something. Now, don't get me wrong.. sex can be amazing when it's coupled with genuine intimacy, connection and integrity and people do have wildly different relationships to it. But for me, I found it to be one of my life's biggest distractions and stressors -- due to pregnancy and STD scares, weird situations with various girls, etc. In the end, all I want, truthfully, is just one amazing woman who I share values with, a connection with and who I love deeply and who loves me. That's it. Everything else is a fallacy.

Bro, what I would've done in this situaiton is say some shit like "You have a son?!" And when she responds in an affirmative, I'd say "Where do moms that look like you come from? I'm asking for a friend." That would have gotten a light chuckle out of her. From there, I'd just introduce myself, throw in a false time constraint such as "I dont have much time to talk, I'm meeting friends for bowling later and gotta run some errands before" and then ask her about herself and build the interaction for a bit before going for her number. But as it has been said earlier, you should definitely focus on building general approaching momentum since you're on the spectrum and keep the process as simple and streamlined as possible. While the above scenario I described is very smooth and context-dependent, the likelihood thaf you'd be able to do that everytime without massive experience is low and you'll end up stifling yourself if you attempt to do so with every approach. Go out, on the street, or in a club/bar if your autism can handle it (some autistic people get overwhelmed in such environment) and just approach 5 women everyday. Keep in mind, that in nightlife settings, you probably will have better results as an autistic person. Reason being that people in a bar or club are more loose cause of the party vibes and are therefore more forgiving of social errors. In daygame, you're dealing with sober women, in a sharp state of mind, who are way more sensitive to your lack of social calibration. Just something to keep in mind.

Beautiful discussion. I had a great time reading through @Valach and @LordFall's perspectives. Also some good points from @something_else ! My personal experience aligns more with @Valach, I must say. I've done a lot of cold approach, online dating and, yes, social circle game and got plenty of sex from all of these avenues along my 10 year exploration of game, pickup, dating dynamics and women. Each of these paths has something unique and exciting but that rush eventually runs out, in my experience and it ends up becoming compulsive and a distraction from deeper work that needs to be done. One of my insights throughout my journey, was that having a lot of sex with various women is actually disrespectful to my body and sovereignity. Everytime I have sex with a woman who I care very little for, it betrays my higher self and hurts my spiritual well-being. I dont enjoy it nearly as much as I used to and, thus, have to transcend it now. But at the same time, it was a journey I NEEDED to go on, in order to develop myself as a man. Be that as it may, I do think @LordFall does actually have a point. In my current stage, I do value a lot of depth and shares value in my relationships with people and building a social circle of likeminded individuals feels way more fulfilling now than ever before. So I can see how combining that with sexual "conquest" and purpose could be fulfilling to some men, because the women that you are sleeping with are women who you have shared experiences and values with, not just some random club girl you pulled that one night. However, even then, I personally have found the hedonistic lifestyle to be very unfulfilling. Having solid platonic friendships with men and women who I respect, without ever escalating that further -- unless real romantic feelings develop -- feels more rewarding to me than casual hookups. But again, everyone is different, so best not to project your experience on others.

I disagree with the common dating advice of "the phone is only for setting dates!" While that may be true for a very small subset of women, in my experience, you're missing out on a lot more potential prospects by just asking the girl out without some back and forth texts. You should absolutely joke around, or flirt a bit over the phone before asking the girl out. It communicates non neediness, a laid back vibe and further highlights your personality outside of the initial interaction. Be that as it may, dont take this too far. You should absolutely be moving things towards a date, asap! I would have asked the girl out at least 2-3 times in the messages above.

Thank you for your question. My main pursuit, this period, is my finances and education. I wanted to be a comic book artist when I was kid and pursued that hardcore until about a couple of years ago. However when I realized how cut-throat that industry is and how little return there is in relation to all the work and passion you pour into these various projects as an artist, I lost my vigour for that pursuit. So now I'm pursuing a different career and thus educating myself again. This is but a stepping stone, though. I want to be creative and I have plans for achieving my unique vision. But those plans do require me to have a solid education/job to fall back on, just in case. So that's what im busy with. Also investing in my health, friendships, emotional wounds, and other forms of personal development, as always. How about you? I see you're really focused on the social circle stuff.

I've arrived at a similar point. After 10 years of hardcore pickup, I'm completely burnt out on dating and women. I remember walking through the mall after having a very weird and ambiguous dream that alluded to the fact that I was chasing phantoms in relation to dating. I asked myself: Why do I want a woman, in my life? This was a profound question that I've been grappling with for some time now as I haven't been feeling very motivated to do pickup yet I would still engage with it from an unconscious mindstate. However, the answer to the question above was even more profound that the question itself: I don't want a woman. Blew my fucking mind to come to that realization. Women have been my life's biggest distraction. A distraction from my goals, my emotions, my emotional wounds, my solitude, my peace. In the spirit of the above revelation, Im taking the whole of June off porn, dating apps, social media, girls, etc. By the end, I hope to have come to some new profound answers as to what role women are meant to play in my life, who I am beyond my previous identity that has brought me til this point or -- if I don't find the answers I need -- then I'd be happy extend it further than just June. So far, a lot of repressed emotions have been bubbling to the surface: loneliness, anger, resentment, pain, sadness, regret. But I find the experience of them absolutely beautiful.

Keep crushing it man! I did similar "challenges" a few times throughout my journey and I found them very transformative! After about a week of consistent action, approaching becomes complete second nature. I could strike up a conversation with anyone, anywhere, and I was SMOOTH AF. No compliments, no direct game. I just had a vibe about me and the flirting was so subtle but effective. Results were well worth it. I say "challenges" in quotations because I never did it consciously. It was more like "I have some free time, I want to get back into hardcore dating again, so Im gonna talk to x amount of girls everyday until something comes of it." So its was a very loose structure, but again, well worth it! I dont read journals though, so I'd appreciate you updating your journey on this thread instead.

@Ramanujan Brother honestly I'd recommend you start with "The Natural" by RSD Max. In my opinion, it is the best program for beginners as well as intermediates going to advanced. It teaches you literally EVERYTHING that goes into pickup. There are other programs that delve deeper into optimizing specific aspects of your game (verbal, vibe, lifestyle, texting, etc) but compared to "The Natural" they are supplementary.

I had one of the most psychologically interesting dreams I’ve had in a long time. In the dream, my mom, my sister and I went to hell. Not in a dramatic fire-and-brimstone way, more like it was some kind of building or place you could visit. I am merely a child in this dream. At some point they left me alone on a different floor. I remember them reassuring me that it was safe and that they'd be back soon, but once I was alone, strange and frightening things slowly started happening around me. I called out for my sister and could hear her answering me from another floor, so I knew she was somewhere nearby, but she never came. I wasn’t completely abandoned, but I was still alone in dealing with what was happening around me. I became more and more afraid as weird eery phenomena were increasing in prevalence and eventually I started breaking things around me almost as a form of retaliation. Like I was trying to reclaim power or stop myself from feeling weak and trapped. Then the devil appeared. Oddly enough, he didn’t torture me or attack me. At first he reprimanded me for breaking things, but eventually he became almost like a companion. I remember cleaning up the mess while talking to him and how comfortable I felt in his presence. At one point I looked in a mirror and my entire body was pale white, almost powdery. There was also a strange white spot on my lip that briefly made me panic, as if it were some kind of disease or STD, but then calmed myself down and I convinced myself it was nothing. After that, the dream shifted into normal day-to-day life, except I was older and the devil followed me everywhere. He looked almost like a white shadow. He was constantly present beside me yet ackowledged by no one except me. Eventually I fell in love with a girl, and I realized that if I wanted a real relationship with her, I had to get rid of him. At first I tried fighting him whenever he appeared, especially when he tried to interfere while I was with her. Over time his interference became violent and we would end up in these anime-style battles where I was trying to protect my girl and myself from him. But over time I realized something strange: He couldn’t actually hurt me. His strikes would just phase through me. Over time, I also realized that he also couldn’t hurt her. In fact, the more I stopped reacting to him, stopped fearing him, stopped acknowledging him, the weaker he became. He would still lash out sometimes, but it stopped affecting me. I'd just ignore him and eventually, over time, he just faded into the background and disappeared. I woke up from that dream with a lot of clarity. I know exactly what this dream means and what it is pointing me towards. But I wonder, what is your interpretation of such a dream?

Owen has been saying this forever now! I personally always thought it was BS, but then wondered how come no one from his team or coaches has ever even rolled an eye at such a statement. It sounds to me like this is a cult psychological tactic to brand himself as a leader with hidden powers, as cult leaders tend to do, without being too "out there" with it. Thoughts?