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Posts posted by LambdaDelta
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Woah, that's quite the mix. Very nice!
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3 minutes ago, James123 said:Did you realize what nothingness is in your trip? Of course, Mind is one big bucket. And everyone have similar experiences in this path, because direction goes to same destination. Path is same and just tradition is different.
Moreover, have you ever heard Irina tweedie? She has a book that is called daughter of fire. It is an amazing book. I read all of it and than consume 7 gr dried shrooms. Love melted me, I understand the book completely within hours. Lol. It is amazing to read and after that experience. What a beautiful ride.
Not in this one, it was very much focused on Love. I've had some insights into nothingness before, though I'll admit I haven't contemplated it as deeply as some other aspects. "All Roads Lead to Rome" hehe
This book is new to me, but I'll be sure to put it on the list, premise sounds great. A lot of material to get through during this summer break! -
10 minutes ago, James123 said:Great work!!! Love is the purpose of creation. Go for it. Check out Rumi.
Peace!
Much love!
Thanks brother! Love you too. I recently purchased 5/6 of Rumi's Masnavi. It's on my to-do list, hoping the final volume translation will be come soon. At the moment I'm reading Attar's Conference of the Birds, it's fucking amazing. Just in the prologue there were tons of passages that resonate deeply with my experiences and Leo's teachings. I've come to realize all this stuff has already been discovered hundreds of years ago, and described in various ways, none false, just different.
7 minutes ago, What Am I said:!!! People may not know the dosing to realize how crazy that is.
Awesome report. Very thoughtful, poetic, and well-written. Sounds like an amazing time overall.
What are your thoughts on 4-HO-MET in comparison to 4-HO-MiPT? I've seen a lot of people actually prefer the latter.
Cheers! I did say in the brackets that the doses are very high, but perhaps not empathized enough. Then again someone randomly copying others' dosages without further research might need a spank on the ass in form of a bad trip.
As for 4-HO's, I love both, but they're slightly different. 4-HO-MET is lighter, perhaps 30% or so weaker. Also much more visual, MiPT had much less visuals, though that may be something particular to me, lately I barely get any. For deep spiritual work I think I now prefer MiPT as well, which's not to underestimate the MET. -
10 minutes ago, Davino said:For example, people that are said to die because of a disease they are unaware of, start noticing their nose in their visual field weeks or days before their sudden death.
Interesting! Did not know that.
10 minutes ago, Davino said:I'm currently finishing my Erasmus in Rome and I'll return home in one month. Where are you from? I'm from Barcelona
Awesome. I'm originally from Russia, now living in Madrid, also studying in uni, although somewhat half-assedly
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Thanks!
13 minutes ago, Davino said:What texts?
Beguines is/was a Christian mystical order of women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beguines_and_Beghards
In particular I looked at Mechthild of Magdeburg, Hadewijch, and Marguerite Porete (eg. The Flowing Light of Divinity, The Mirror of Simple Souls)
There's also a very good YT channel that has videos on them and much more similar stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@TheEsotericaChannel13 minutes ago, Davino said:Mmm interesting, can you explain why you decided to investigate such minds and what was the benefit of it?
If you mean exploring evil minds during the trip, it was to test and deepen my capacity to love. I've never been particularly judgmental of such stuff, but that was more on the level of acceptance or simple not caring. Loving is much more challenging. Exploring them in the past has mostly been out of good old morbid curiousity and a bit of edgyness. In the end it's all for the best though, I suggest to try if you feel you're ready to handle it.
13 minutes ago, Davino said:That used to be my position but I'm not sure anymore.
I'm exploring with the possibility of thins being in consciousness but you are not aware of them.
Like your nose is in your visual field right now but you are not aware of it, your brains erase it, but look right now to your nose, it's always there.
True, I'm not exactly certain on this one either, like I said some of the solipsism insights may need revision. I'm leaving it open-ended for now. Funny you should mention the nose, once during a molly trip my brain lost the ability to filter it out, so for the entire duration I had split vision.
Btw, I saw you say in another thread you're in Spain? That's cool, me too. I rarely see people do personal development and much less spirituality here.
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Biden announces Israel's new offer for ceasefire
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/05/31/world/israel-gaza-war-hamas-rafah
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I'm happy for you! "Invaded" has somewhat negative connotations though
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2 hours ago, Ayham said:Oh nice @UnbornTao @LambdaDelta
I know those names but I haven't gotten into them, I believe they are more philosophical in nature, of course I will get into them but what about practice, any resources for that?
I'm not aware of concrete practices specific to Sufis. A lot of them were devout Suni muslims, so standard stuff like praying 5 times a day, fasting, etc. What sets them apart is more openness, a focus on direct experience, and love/unity. Music and poetry are important, but how exactly they arrived at the insights that led to composing those is not super clear. From what I do know it wasn't anything too out of the ordinary. Deep meditation, contemplation, and prayer, often coupled with an ascetic lifestyle. You'll surely find more info on the specifics in their texts and biographies.
E.g., some practical advice from Ibn Arabi: “Help and serve, as much as you can, the people who hide their misery, who are content with their poverty, the travelers on the path to truth. Do not attribute to yourself virtue, goodness, and graciousness because of your service to the creation. Consider that you owe other people thanks for having humbly accepted your help. It is incumbent upon you to lighten the load of those who are burdened. If people whose pain you have helped to alleviate cause you pain in return - if their responses, their ways, their habits are dark and cast shadows upon you - show patience and forbearance.”
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Perhaps my best trip to date, but only because it builds on top of all the previous ones. Tried to structure it as best as I could, however at some points the thing being talked about requires context, but then that context finds itself backed by the very notions it's supposed to explain. Some related themes come to mind here - strange loop, paradox, Indra's net, social matrix, etc.
For about 2 weeks prior, I haven't taken any substances, been doing pranayama, sexual transmutation, and some light meditation. Studied and contemplated various Sufi and Beguine texts. I believe all of this greatly helped set the tone.
Close to midnight, I took 60mg of each on an empty stomach (these are very large doses), then proceeded to shower and make preparations like food, candles, and incense as I usually do while waiting for the comeup to begin.
The beginning wasn't so great though. There were subtle, and then extreme, demonic overtones. Haunting and vivid visuals and sensations of various evil entities from mystical traditions, creepypastas, horror movies, urban legends, and so on. Point is, things were going south fast. I needed some escape. So I played Leo's Self-Love video. After a couple minutes in I managed to calm down, but then decided this won't do. Can't keep running from these fears, the time has come to integrate and transcend them. Made the counter-intuitive move to go back to those visions and attempt to apply Love to them, meaning I'd no longer hold all this ugly stuff as separate, but accept it as part of my own self and love it. Initially it was an incredibly bitter pill to swallow, akin to drinking poisoned water. However that's where burning with Love comes in, the bright white fire of consciousness lit up and burned it all away. I guess that's where the stereotypical imagery of religious nuts ranting about vanquishing evils with the divine light of God comes from. That's right, this metaphor is true, but of course their understanding is so limited that instead of burning with love they burn other people at the stake.
The rest of the trip is overwhelmingly positive. This seems to be a recurring theme in my recent experiences, things going full-circle from suffering to joy. There are good reasons for that, I'm being taught the lesson that acceptance and integration are key in spiritual practice, so I try to apply the same principles in daily life and welcome such challenges. Case in point, I never have a purely bad trip. Things get just bad enough for me to understand important truths, the negative is always recontextualized into something great, it's only a matter of time.
I preemptively forgave myself for inevitably forgetting some of the insights that would come to me during the trip. At multiple points throughout the experience I wanted to get up and write about it asap, but every time trusted myself and decided to continue, as more good stuff would surely happen. That's the fleeting nature of insight, it dissapears just as fast as it appeared. However the insights aren't really my own anyway, a lot are Leo's, and more broadly of the universe, and as such, there's an infinite capacity to produce them. This abundance means there's no need to worry about the loss of one or two - there'll always be more. Then again, each tiny part of the whole is also precious on its own, so it's wise to not be overly nonchalant either. I had an insight into how a spiritual ego may subtly co-opt the insights of others, justifying it with solipsism/nonduality for the purposes of self-aggrandizement.
Somewhere along the way I also forgave and loved everyone who bullied me at school and other annoying people.
Next came one more dip into darkness, I dove into the minds of serial killers and other 'evil' people. I've studied tons of crimes and evils of humanity and watched hours of gore of all kinds, so vividly imagining it all from their perspective was simple. I managed to love that, but in a bittersweet way. Had the circumstances been different, these people could have been contributing something to mankind instead. The suffering they cause is only to themselves, on multiple levels. The metaphysical, and also personal. These are miserable people, it's a sad state of mind when the only way one can experience love is by raping and torturing some child. But, them doing their evil stuff is ultimately what's required in the grand scheme of the universe's self-expression.
Then came two profound realizations. I grasped the nature of inanimate objects as manifestations of universal Love, which they also possses in their own way. The love of a rock is first that it accepts itself as a rock, it doesn't need to be any other way. But it's also not attached to being a rock, it doesn't mind if you grind it to dust - it doesn't have a traditional sense of self. So on the whole, the love of a rock is being a rock, and selflessly allowing itself to be used in industrial manufacturing and whatnot. As I was marveling at all this, I also realized that for God, this is the most mundane and obvious stuff ever. But at the same time it also paradoxically understands how amazing it all is. There comes the human - a limited self to whom all this is grand and mysterious. God admires itself through a human mind in the process of realizing God's (and its own) divinity. Somewhat confusing, I guess it's a bit like a two-way mirror. This plays into the theme of the mundane and divine being the same, ultimately because they're one. As I have previously discovered, the lofty 10D realms of God consciousness can actually become boring if you visit too much, while there's immense beauty on this Earth that's easy to be blind to.
Interestingly the majority of bodily sensations of love during all this were in the chest area, the heart chakra I believe.
Another thing of note is that I've had a callback to my complete solipsism awakening, which the Love reinforced and complimented perfectly, and vice-versa. A couple relevant excerpts from my notes on that:
"I checked how solid the illusion is. Biting my hand with all my force, and feeling intense pain as a result, told me two paradoxical things. First, that there's nothing at all to pain in the sense that it wasn't some objective property of reality, it was just perception. The resulting marks quickly disappeared in the following minutes after my focus shifted elsewhere. A supernatural self-healing power? If it's not in the field of my direct experience, it's not real, quite like how the textures in a videogame are only rendered as the player approaches them. But second, at the same time there's nothing more real than pain, in the sense that it was all that was real in that moment, by which I mean what I was experiencing."
"Then I realized my complete self-referential and self-defining nature, as Yahweh, "I am that I am", the Alpha and the Omega. My birth really was the immaculate conception in the truest sense. I am all the majorities and minorities, the whites, the blacks, the asians, the straights and the gays and everything in-between. The animals, the aliens, the roads, the plants, the stars. Ultimately all of these are one and the same, adding a true meaning to equality."
"My intuitive disdain for lies, deceit, manipulation became all the more clear. All of these are in essense 'crimes' against myself. Yet at the same time I'm all the liars, cheaters, and frauds of the world, the most important fraud of them all being this very illusion. Ah, how hypocritical of me. I always disliked conflict. At least engaging in it, watching could be fun at times. I'm conflicted. What a mindfuck."
"The self-reference is so dense I'm melting and collapsing into it. It's beautiful. Brings me to tears. All the infinite layers to the illusion for me to endlessly peel away at, what more could I ask for? Yes, the illusion gets unpleasant and nasty at times. But that's part of the beauty.
The entire reason to even have this illusion is so that I can experience all the dualities that stem from it, which is something that's not possible at the absolute oneness domain, my highest nature".
These may sound somewhat egotistical and perhaps not entirely correct, but it is what it is.
At the peak I was so filled with Love, I didn't need anything at all, everything is already perfect as-is. Despite this, the fullness turned into overflowing, so I made a commitment to develop more empathy and compassion, and in general live my life to help others experience a sliver of this Love. I guess that's my life purpose in a broad sense, and the precise manifestation of it I'm still working out.
After that the comedown begun, so I took some notes while still blissing out.A good way to sum up this trip is with one of my favorite poems, written by Fakhr al-Din Iraqi:
"Beloved, I sought you
here and there,
asked for news of you
from all I met;
then saw you through myself
and found we were identical.
Now I blush to think I ever
searched for signs of you."Well, that's that, the work continues.
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https://www.youtube.com/@LetsTalkReligion
This channel has some very good content about Sufis.Some more guys to read and study: Ibn Arabi, Ibn Sina, Suhrawardi, Attar, Ibn al-Farid, Ibn Sab'in, Al-Shushtari, Mansur Al-Hallaj, Hasan al-Basri, Fakhr al-Din Iraqi, Shams Tabrizi
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Nice, I liked it. You speak clearly and confidently. Content wise too, particularly for newbies the information will be quite useful. However I think with some more pre-planning it could be made more concise, cutting down from 28 min. to like 20-23. Btw, you do kinda look like a lion
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5 hours ago, ricachica said:Yes, it sounds like her trip was definitely heavy solipsism based, without the Infinite/Love mixed in. I'm assuming the best way to experience solipsism is when infinite Love is also experienced along with it, and makes it smoother and less harsh to process? Can one experience Love without solipsism, or is that apart of it?
Totally possible and more likely to experience them separately. I first got solipsism with a small glimpse of Love, then some time later the Love. The good stuff is when you're able to connect the two in your mind, each one will integrate and reinforce the other if that makes sense. IMO an important distinction is that even if you're able to accept that you're all the ugly and evil things when realizing solipsism, if you only accept but don't love it, that's not complete.
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Inspiring story, I bought some of these after seeing it. Quality product.
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2 minutes ago, What Am I said:My guess is it'd be the difference between those who experience themself 100% as God itself, as opposed to those who experience it in at least somewhat of a separated state. It costs precisely everything.
Part of it could be how introverted/extroverted one is. I'm very much the former, so solipsism happens to work out perfectly. So what if I'm utterly alone. But I've also come to realize solipsism without Love is incomplete.
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If used sparingly and consciously there shouldn't be a problem. A few years ago I also had a blowjob machine "powered by AI". It was good, but the motor gave out fast. I think this stuff can be harmful for people who lack self-awareness and are desperate, artificial stimulation can really disincentivize real work, especially with how advanced the nonsense like AI girlfriends is getting.
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1 minute ago, ricachica said:@Danioover9000 So to be super clear, this means he cannot run for president?
He can and he will, there's no law preventing this.
3 minutes ago, Loveeee said:How is that possible, was there no trumptard in the jury ?
There was one guy following him on TruthSocial, but that alone doesn't make someone MAGA. It's NYC after all.
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Incidentally I've just had the most amazing Love awakening last night. Also had trouble with that before as almost my whole life I've been dismissing it as something silly. What helped me was a combination of the right psychedelics (large dose and a synergetic mix, but that varies for everyone), having Leo's Self-Love video playing in the background, and general state of mind in the weeks leading up to this - been studying and contemplating many texts and poems, mainly Sufi and Beguines
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Whatever your opinion on Trump is, one undeniable thing is he's quite the character. Very entertaining, and like Leo said a fascinating perpetual source of study material on low integrity, self-bias, and other things.
And USA is such a shitshow I honestly don't know whether this will benefit or hurt him in the end. MAGA sees the whole system as corrupt, so 'convicted felon' is basically a badge of honor. This year will be interesting.
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Sentencing set for July 11th. Some experts seem to be saying that despite the verdict, actual jail time is unlikely.
Trump: "I'm a very innocent man"
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3 hours ago, funkychunkymonkey said:@Oppositionless do kriya yoga on dxm i literally slingshotted me into cessation but dxm is bad and as a matter of fact what do u guys think of dxm i def have been there doing a lot of that!
To my knowledge DXM more on the unhealthy side than most stuff, especially when it's in cough syrup. People tend to use it because they don't have access to anything better, much like DPH
Kriya on a psychedelic sounds fun though, been meaning to try something like that.
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1 hour ago, What Am I said:Nice report, sounds like a wild time. It's especially interesting how it went so bad and then flipped so good. I feel like that's something that almost never happens.
This is blowing my mind. I have a lot of experience with pharmahuasca, and just the mere suggestion of 400mg makes my hands sweat a bit. For me, 35mg of DMT in pharma would be a pretty high dose. And you have a similar amount of insensitivity to the 5-MeOs? What ROAs have you tried? These are all psychs where it'd be a really big shame to miss out on them.
35mg of oral DMT sounds abit low. If memory serves, even Leo said to take something like 100mg.
I describe some of the 5-MeO stuff in this post:
In essence, it's impractical for me to do them. A decent trip would likely require 100+ mg boofed, which would be awfully uncomfortable and perhaps even physically harmful.
It's true that I may be missing out on some aspects, but they're replaceable. I've made my peace with all this. There's other substances that work beautifully – 3-HO-PCP, 2C-E, LSD, 4-HO-MET, 2C-B... even the DOx series. Thanks to this tolerance of mine I can safely eyeball them and go really deep, where few would venture.
Then there's the entire salvia domain. Seems I've a tolerance to that as well. A fat bowl of 40x extract only got me on the doorstep, after which I pussed out, trusted my intuition, and decided to leave it for now, will surely be coming back later though. Crazy new dimensions to reality will open up, I can feel it. Particularly excited about experiencing myself as inanimate objects and in majorly warped time, like living for multiple decades in a span of a few minutes.
Have you heard about Salvinorin B Ethoxymethyl Ether? That may just be THE most powerful psychedelic, making the 5-MeOs look cute. 10x potency of Salvinorin A and several times longer duration. There's maybe 5 confirmed accounts of people ever taking it, with rather wild results. I'm looking to get my hands on it at some point, luckily there's some potential avenues available. -
28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:The devil must be purged before God can appear
But be careful running around your house like a maniac. You could carelessly hurt yourself on something sharp or hard.
Thanks for your concern
. Thankfully even in that state I can maintain enough self-control to not have to worry about stuff like that.
By the way, are there specific positing limits per day? I believe I hit around 20 before getting restricted for several hours, couldn't even send messages. Guess the limit is lower for new members?
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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:So the question for you guys to contemplate is: How does Truth and Consciousness connect to relative morality? And it is all as purely relative as you think? If so, then how come Truth and Consciousness tends to compel people to improve their behavior?
What initially comes to mind: if we take Truth to mean that everything is one, that you're the only thing in existence, then every evil act you commit is against yourself, which doesn't make sense. Though this misses some nuance, such as when you're at that level, 'evil', 'bad', etc cease to hold any meaning. Perhaps that's where consciousness comes in, you're wise enough to realize that after this experience you'll come back to ordinary human reality where it does matter.
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Some context: this took place around 3 weeks ago. Last summer I acquired 2g of high-purity synthetic NN-DMT, which to my bitter disappointment has not worked, despite trying very high doses via various methods like vaping on emesh/meth pipe and taking it orally with harmala extract. That's not out of the ordinary for me, as I'm also essentially unresponsive to other potent substances such as the 5-MeO series and DPT. I decided to give it one last shot with a ridiculous dose, and failing that, I'd simply wait and donate it to someone that could make better use of it.
I took 200mg of harmala extract followed by 400mg DMT 30 minutes later. After that, I shaved, showered, and almost forgot I had taken anything.
It was a nice day, so I decided to go to the rooftoop with some food and sunbathe for a bit. Once there, it didn't take long for things to go terribly wrong. By the time I finally decided I gotta get back I was already nearly passing out.Barely made it to my apartment, reality was collapsing all around. Not in a metaphysical sense, that's trivial for me these days. This was far more sinister and palpable, as if pure poison was coursing through my veins. Not sure what's the exact cause of this, perhaps harmala interaction with tyramines. I haven't watched my diet as it wasn't necessary in the past, but that was with lower doses.
At home I'm feeling awful, grabbed a bucket to vomit, closed the blinds, applied cold gel, drank water. Couldn't puke, had a sharp pain all around the body, and a very strong feeling like I'm about to die. I take a pyrazolam pill in hopes it'll help.
Slipping in and out of consciousness, sweating bullets, mostly paralyzed, lying drooling on the floor barely able to move like in the Wolf of Wall Street Quaaludes scene. Things get even worse. Trying not to fight it to ease the pain, doesn't work.
Unknown amount of time passes, I have all sorts of thoughts, life flashing before my eyes. Should I call the ambulance? Or will this pass?
Feeling totally on the brink of death, if not within an inch of my life then 2.
A scene from a horror manga comes to mind, where a patient in surgery affirms he's going to make it, and there's a tiny ray of hope, but then the doctors say he's done for, which extinguishes the light.
Some more time is spent in this state, gradually getting used to the pain, doesn't bother me so much, or maybe it was just so intense that I completely surrendered and stopped caring about dying. In parallel I contemplate why are creatures so attached to life to begin with.
At some point there's an inflexion, and all the suffering turns into pure bliss and euphoria, like a tsunami washing over me. I look around my room, vision still blurred, in complete awe. Everything has come full-circle. I spend a good amount of time just enjoying all this in a trance of sorts. Worth mentioning that for the entire trip there was almost zero visuals.
Another shift occurs, I'm so overwhelmed with joy that I start rolling around laughing like a complete maniac, hitting the floor with my hands.
I get up and do this for probably another half an hour, an epileptic dance all around my apartment, sometimes I lay down, near the toilet, on the kitchen floor, it doesn't matter. Grabbing stuff, feeling its texture, smelling things. Dunno if neighbors can hear all this madness going on but I'm beyond caring. Everything's too good. Ridiculously good. I spend some time caressing my still wet hair, it's so silky soft. On the whole, not even MDMA can match the tactile enhancement I felt.
I fall on my couch, a bit exhausted but still full of energy. The fabric is kind of rough, but I'm enjoying even that. I remember Leo's words - "The very fact that there even is an experience, even if it's that of pain, is amazing by itself". That's exactly it. I managed to beat it into my memory and beyond that, so that every time I feel like bitching about something, this wisdom comes up."No sympathy for the devil. Buy the ticket, take the ride" describes this trip perfectly.
That hellish agony must have been the price of admission. Some may call me a fool for being reckless, and rightly so, but that's alright. Whatever happens is for the best. I contemplate all sorts of random things, looking back at life experiences, how great it has played out. Partly due to random chance, the rest due to my own efforts.
There's no ego death per se this time, but I recall all the previous ones I had, various aspects of them, which I attempt to formulate together. If there's no 'me', then there's nobody who judges or is selfish and biased, so every experience becomes good. All experience is my experience and all identity is my identity. Simultaneously everything and nothing.
Of course all this is easier said than done. But I shall strive to become a receiver of consciousness more and more. The interpreter part, while still has its place, is second order. That way life can truly be lived to the fullest.
Bunch of time has passed, I'm still admiring the tactile sensations. I put my leg between my coffee table clamps, which are a bit sharp, and press against them. Pain follows, but that's what I want in that instant. A contrast. That's what it's all about.
I move my head to look through the corridor into the kitchen. It seems so far away. Damn it, everything really is perspective, isn't it? Distance, time, all 'objective' things one can think of. I take some time to marvel at physics. The gravity that lets me stay attached to this couch and this planet, the light that lets me see the world, the friction between my skin and this fabric... Then the anatomy. Eyes that receive light, ears that perceive sound waves, the momevent of legs and arms, how precisely I can even move individual fingers and flex their parts. The skin that protects the insides from all sorts of things. The blood cells, bacteria, various organs, how it's all interconnected and working seamlessly in the background. The brain of course, which completes the puzzle. And on a micro level, the DNA folding, it's like a whole goddamn universe down there.
At this point I'm thirsty and have a bitterness in my mouth, but I don't allow myself to go quench that just yet. A bit later I finally get up, open the windows, feel the cool evening air. Some time is spent cleaning up the mess I made in the emergency state. Then I finally let myself into the fridge, drinking a sweet strawberry milk. Then I prepare something salty to counteract that.
After that, water. Just good old H2O. This mundane stuff is so good. I begin to realize more and more that there's actually no difference between the 10D fractal Infinite Love God realms and this humble earthly existence. Just more perception.
The trip ends. There's sure to be more ego backlashes and forgetfulness lying in wait. However a massive step has been taken up the infinite ladder of awakening. Every time more appreciation for existence, more peace, joy, love, compassion, and truth.
in Psychedelics
Posted
That's an interesting experience. I agree that it makes you very comfortable with whatever you're doing and feeling in the moment, like a flow state. Recently I took some and went to gamble at a casino, something I usually never do, but on molly it was super fun and felt natural. Definitely more of a recreational substance, yet it can also be very therapeutic for some people. The neurotoxicity is a large disadvantage though. Plus that horrid sweet smell, gives me nausea just thinking about it. There's 6-APB which has a better safety profile and similar effects, but it's also a good deal weaker.
The body sensations are sure nice, though I've had better on DMT once. Also apparently 5-MeO-MiPT is stronger in that regard, plus there's all the opis, especially the zene territory, if one's reckless enough to go there