zazen

@Vrubel No one wants to be “under” anyone else and especially not in the fashion of an “occupation”. The fact this is so hard to understand shows the arrogance of Gods chosen people when that term is taken too literally.

Interesting analysis https://twitter.com/FromKulak/status/1717414661174223089 ''Israel can't really "win" with this invasion. Hamas may have 50-100k trained soldiers of some quality, and another 100-200k volunteers from Gazan males... Almost all of them acting as infantry. If Israel has a 5-1 or 10:1 kill:loss ratio (which with small consumer drones in an urban setting might be a tall order) that would completely shred a good chunk of Israel's 20-30k Non-reserve infantry, the majority of which has to be kept on other fronts to deter Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, and potentially Egypt if things REALLY pop off. And Israel can't reconstitute its forces away from the American model of a 15% infantry Army, because they need all their technical processes and advanced weapons systems to deter those less advanced neighbors. The last time Israel suffered 1000s dead or 10s of thousands wounded and came away with a clear victory was the Yom Kippur War of '73, a defensive war fought against conventional armor. In the mire of urban fighting and attempted occupation there's a good chance they'd reach a point where politically and socially the Israeli population and soldiers won't accept any more... at which point they'd have to pull back, giving Hamas a massive political victory, tarnishing their prestige, and risking that an emboldened Hamas and radical population doesn't accept the cease fire, but periodically does raids on Israel every couple months. The Average age in Gaza is 18, with a low life expectancy. Ultimately Hamas knows any casualties they suffer will be replaced quickly. Israel by contrast can't take large casualties, its beleaguered secular Jewish population, despite being 40% of the population, suffers 80-90% of the cost of conscription on their sons and daughters and was already in a state of near revolt against the religious coalition in government. A brutal urban campaign that might quickly become the equivalent of a Vietnam could make many of these second passport holding jews emigrate, and could destroy the culture that allows conscription to function. Already large cross sections of Israeli men and women Fake religiosity, Marriages, or get bogus mental health diagnoses to escape the draft... and many that can't just emigrate. One military disaster could send the IDF or Israeli social demographics into a death spiral. The Rhodesian light infantry never significantly lost on the field of battle, but mere demographic and economic outmigration broke the Rhodesian state. There's a lot of concern that this could erupt into a wider regional war with Iran or even world war 3 if Russia got involved and things spiralled.... But another Major risk is Israel gets into a rolling low intensity fight it can't break off from for years such as Vietnam or Afghanistan or What the war on drugs is in central America and the worst American cities... There's a scenario where Israel never gets a major war where it can call on American support, and never gets a ceasefire where it can repair its social fabric... and instead Conscription and danger just bleed away the country of the upper-middle-class secular jews who drive its economy and fight its wars, back into the economies of Europe and North America, or onto even more foreign shores. Hamas and other islamists insist their strength is that they're faithful and don't fear death the way Israelis do... the truth is less romantic, their "strength" is they don't have better options or second passports to slip their children to first world countries away from warzones.''

Thats the point, Israel aren't kept in check by the US enough, and because of this have become ''a spoiled brat you're unable to say no to" which has grown up to be "a sociopath '' in the words of Rahma Zain. By IDF's logic, the mass shooting in Maine today would be tackled by bombing the whole place in order to eliminate him, or to eliminate a school shooter hidden among class rooms it would be to bomb the school. Nice propaganda putting Hamas and Isis together to villainize and delegitimise the Palestinian cause further. If we take spiral dynamics seriously and the framework of holism, nothing just happens by itself. Thats the kind of thinking which causes the problem to never be resolved. This ''deep connection'' is claimed by both sides rendering the debate zero sum, absolute and mutually exclusive. Thats been the problem with negotiations - all the offers involved offering Abu Dis, the village outside of Jerusalem - never the part of Jerusalem (East) where many Palestinians living in the muslim/christian quarter. They also insisted on maintaining three military outposts within West Bank which only further extends the security apparatus and control of Israel onto the so called autonomous Palestinian state. Did Palestinians reserve the same right to have military outposts in Israel?

@Karmadhi Exactly, the double standard and hypocrisy makes the West look even weaker and disingenuous in the eyes of the world. Israel hasn't asked a question it is still unwilling to answer: “what is the ultimate cause of the violence on October 7?” Losing the PR Campaign“ Israel's trying to undermine any claim to legitimacy that Hamas might have regarding why they carried out these attacks,' Ritter said. "You know, Israel is not winning the PR campaign globally, primarily because of the heavy-handed manner in which they've responded to the attacks. And people, when they dig into the attacks, are trying to make the claim that you can't cite self-defense when you're the occupier. The occupier cannot ever claim a right of self-defense from the occupied. And there's a larger debate going on right now about the history of Gaza, the history of the Israeli occupation, the history of abuse that’s transpired, etc.” There's no carte blanche ever for anybody to kill innocent civilians, and a lot of innocent Israeli civilians were killed. And I think it's imperative that Israel, like the United States after 9/11, instead of saying ‘we must exact our revenge’, to sit there and say, ‘how did this happen? Why did this happen and how can we prevent it from happening again?’ But in order to answer that question, you have to define the problem. Israel doesn't want to have that discussion, Netanyahu doesn't want to have that discussion, because the answer is: he is the problem. The right-wing policies of Israel is the problem. Zionism might be the problem.''

Good post OP. Most people condemn the Hamas attack, but it would be wise to condemn also what lead to it for terrorists aren't made so in a vacuum. This 'othering' from both sides will never bring peace, if there is any worthy war it is to go to war with the conditions that may corrupt you into terrorism. Terrorists are people whose conscience is clouded by trauma caused by the terror of the conditions they find themselves in. That trauma becomes brutally manifest in terrorist reaction to actions and conditions imposed on them by people who claim to be the victims. Which occupier in history has ever claimed to be victim? Did the British claim victimhood when colonising the planet or America when subjugating the red Indians with their superior capability. An Isreali spokesperson called Palestinains 'animals'. If you cage people into un livable hellish conditions like animals, next to the occupiers of their land who seem to be living in heaven like conditions, they will lash out like animals to free themselves of that cage. The reason they elected Hamas was because in extreme conditions with no hope in site that is a last resort. PLO in West Bank were cozying up to Israeli sentiments and not doing anything about the settlements, they were incompetent and capitulated in the Palestinians eyes. Any chance for a two state solution becomes increasingly unviable by settlements coming in and not only settling in one area but in a Swiss cheescake like fashion scattered, making it even more impossible to ever regain those territories in a deal. If Palestinians are so 'savage' and 'underdeveloped' as many people have put it, why would they feel comfortable to live amongst them and be flanked by them? Any proposal fell short of fairness and the meeting of minimum standards set by international law. Hamas don't have anything to do with the West Bank - and the West Bank is Israel's proof to show the Palestinians all over including Gaza that theres a scenario in which they can have a just peace and existence but the situation in West Bank opposes that completely - theres still settler violence, expansion, increased checks and control of movement, apartheid like conditions. The burden of proof is on the one with control of the situation. It is also false to conflate technological and economic capability with character or consciousness. I understand we like to generalise entire regions into spiral dynamic colours for brevity's sake and it does serve a purpose, but its much more complex than that. You can be developed in one domain and not in others, and their are major differences amongst generations within a society. People would be surprised to know that the younger generation of Palestinians may be more closer to those in the West in their perspectives - even in the West the whole Okay Boomer meme is an example of the chasm in spiral stage and generational development. The West claims moral development and sets out human rights and laws, yet fails to adhere to it themselves which is made evident in the double standards of the media, selective morality and curtailing of freedom of speech - what actually exists is convenient speech. When freedom of speech is given, your freedom of reach is cut when that speech goes against vested interests. The world watches this and becomes disillusioned, even Westerners themselves are and exist in a cognitive dissonance within the West - for what their civilisation claims isn't what is delivered. And this makes the world more dangerous, for if the 'developed' West don't follow what they preach why should they? Do past historical experiences and injustices trump present day laws including the justice system? When school shooters in the West are among the classrooms does it ever come to mind to bomb the whole school?

“It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum,” Guterres said at a UN Security Council meeting on the Israel-Hamas war, which erupted when the terror group ravaged Israeli border communities, killing some 1,400 people, the vast majority of them civilians. “The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing,” Guterres said. The nerve of people to say the Palestinians are less developed and need to be occupied because they are so, when the actions of the occupier hinder their development. Just as how predatory Western corporations hinder the development of developing countries to maintain the profits from cheap labour and resources, and when governments who aren't in the interest of the West come to power or may come to power, they are coup'ed and interfered with covertly. The nerve then to deflect any criticism of your governments actions (Israel) by bringing out the Holocaust or anti-semite card, just as muslim extremists bring out the Islamophobia card or black people the racist card. The occupier is in the offensive position from the get go, any action taken for self determination in what was once your own land is the defensive position - defensive resistance. Just as someone resists the rapist in defence, Palestinians resist the rape of their land and dignity. If someone comes into your house, demotes you to the basement and controls your food, water, electricity and free movement which puts them at a leveraged position in negotiation, then has the nerve to propose and negotiate how much of your house you can have, especially if that proposal is unfair, restrictive and doesn't meet the minimum requirement set by international law, what do you expect?

@DawnC Were the Palestinians a barbaric regime when they got occupied? As Lina shared above via Mohamed Hadids example, Jews were accepted as refugees and in return they get second class treatment on their own land. What are the conditions that cause the lack of development? That needs to be rectified. How are they meant to develop when Israel hinders their development via siege and blockade. https://press.un.org/en/2022/gaef3574.doc.htm https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza Warfare is messy, especially urban warfare. This reaction from Israel only unifies the sunni-shia against them including a majority of the world and fracturing Israeli society itself also. Thats why their is no military solution to this, they may need to react to appease the angry Isreali's in a show of doing something, but then restrain themselves and try to solve the situation peacefully. If Hamas and their actions represent the state of Palestinian society which is barely a functional democracy, would US foreign policy reflect the state of American society which is much more functional democracy representing the people. Should we conflate the values/morality of US foreign policy and industry interest with the values/morality of its people?

''Israel's continued control is primarily fueled by its citizens fear of a recurrence of what happened''. Thats the source of the problem, occupation. Israel can't bomb an ideology out of existence. The occupation and control is what gives rise to the idea of resistance. By that logic the European countries should all be controlling each other for fear of ancient feuds resurfacing - otherwise whats the solution, to have constant control and restrictions on a segment of the population for ever akin to an apartheid state - in the 21st century? By a 'developed' country like Israel? ''driven by a religious fanatic approach like major part of the Palestinian society.'' Hamas combatants are estimated between 15'000-40'000 in a population of roughly 2million. If we take the highest estimate of 40'000 thats 2% of the population. That isn't a major representation of Palestinian society. So to tackle 40'000 combatants its justified to strip 2million innocents half of which are children of electricity food and water and be difficult in allowing in aid at the Egypt border? From a so called 'developed' society which has broken and still breaks countless human right laws and when a bomb of a report comes out such as the Goldstone report that would expose and pressure the world on Israel, Mr Goldstone later backtracks on it probably due to blackmail via Mossad. Israel can do what US did in Middle East operations by going in with special forces to take out Hamas rather than destroying the whole place. Hamas are underground in bunkers mostly not being affected anyway, and giving a warning of 24 hours is not enough time for 1 million people to move in masses to the South, especially when their route and envoy of movement is attacked. So 'developed'. What are the incubators with babies meant to do also?

Turbulent times for sure. Population collapse, domestic civill fracturing and atomisation, AI, economy and income inequality, environmental degradation, degenerate culture, woke mobs and cancellation, dating crises, social media echo chambers, materialism. A question I ponder is if to have kids or not, that is if your in a relationship. But even if your not and your dating, thats something you will eventually face or a woman will eventually question you on and something you can't mislead her on or waste her time with. What makes it harder is if you are already in a relationship but uncertain on whether to have kids in this world or not as it robs the woman of something they mostly desire. I highly doubt the world will end or an all out war will take place, but living standards and instability looks to be a regular part of the coming decades until a new system is figured out. A useful video from Teal Swan on dealing with uncertainty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6cMH9Mqi60&t=923s

Thats the source of the problem, occupation. Power corrupts, but persecution of people by the hands of power (in this case Israel) corrupts those very people to become terrorists. Its impossible to bomb a ideology of resistance, out of existence - except to allow them the right to self determination and their own state. Leaving Gaza isn't an appropriate response when it is still under siege and West Bank is continuously being occupied via settler annexation. Israel leaving Gaza was like the guards leaving the prison but still keeping the people in one with the doors locked. Allowing them their own state is seen as a threat - this is why a two state solution isn't allowed to happen - because either side aren't trusted to be neighbours. But neither is a one state solution feasible from the looks of it - just going by the example in West Bank it doesn't seem they can coexist, and the existing arabs in other parts of Israel have new laws from the far right government coming for them eventually. On top of this, Palestinians will outnumber Israelis sooner or later which will cause rising tensions. Its a tricky situation. The existing West Bank has settlers in the number of 700'000 so even in a two state solution, that would mean them leaving which will be very difficult. The two state solution has been given lip service while settlers keep coming and everyone knows that this just makes it impossible. The borders of neighbouring countries that don't trust each are known as fault lines, and that is just a reality that needs to be lived with in the end maybe. Ukraine/Russia, Pakistan/India etc. That seems to be a better solution than to have an apartheid architecture set up that the world condemns and is against in the 21st century - and to have the continuous threat of resistant terrorism renewing itself.

@Nivsch Why aren’t you able to respond to my questions? Don’t be blind to Israels war crimes and shortcomings the same way the deranged are blind to Hamas’s. By the definition of what a terrorist is, isn’t what Israel is allowing to happen via the settlers in the West Bank a terrorist act? Do you condemn terrorism, whether it’s done by a organisation (Hamas) or by a state (Israel)? People criticising Israel isn’t in most cases people criticising the Israeli people - the same way the world criticises the US government and its foreign policy which isn’t the necessarily the people of the US. People shouldn’t personalise criticism of their state.

@Breakingthewall @Nivsch Conspiracy requires competence and governments are full of incompetence. Israel and Bibi were in the midst of political crises before the attack, with protests every week and opposition to judicial reforms which were to be made to protect himself from corruption charges and a life time in prison. Not to mention the increasing powers which would give them power to discriminate against local arabs and further annex land in the West Bank - in fact thats where a lot of the security focus shifted as settlers and settler violence was increasing. Hamas was opportunistic, as is the Isreali government in response to the attack and doing what they always do according to their Dahiya doctrine which is to use disproportionate force. Theirs a difference between orchestrating events and being opportunistic with them. When powered elites react to events its easy to jump to the point that they created those very events as a pretext (ie problem reaction solution) when in a lot of cases it is just that a pretext is given by events playing out the chessboard of geopolitics.

@Nivsch ”The Dahiya Doctrine violates two cardinal principles of International law: The Principle of Distinction and the Principle of Disproportionality… civilians cannot be targeted by armies.” ”The United Nations commissioned a fact-finding mission known as the Goldstone Report, which concluded that the Israeli strategy was "designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population." So to minimise IDF casualties it is justified to flatten an already small strip of land with a population density higher than Tokyo, comprising of over 1 million children ( including destroying critical infrastructure such as hospital and their last major bakery ) and further to cut them off from essentials like food water and electricity. The fact that the US had to step in to pressure Israel to allow aid to those people and stay within international law is embarrassing for the optics of Israel. Even if this 'war' passes, Israel itself is domestically fractured. Even disregarding Gaza, Israels treatment of the West Bank is also atrocious - how is that explained?

Google definition of terrorist: a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. Whether state, organisation or solo actor - it’s clear, just a matter of scale and propagandised white washing and hypocrisy from Western governments. Even if we disregard Gaza, what’s happening in West Bank falls under that category - and Hamas don’t even run the show there! Israel’s Dahiya doctrine The strategy itself calls for the deliberate targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure in order to induce suffering and severe distress throughout the targeted population. By targeting indiscriminately, the IDF hopes to deter further military attacks against Israel, destroy its enemies, as well as influence the population to oust the militants seen as the primary target. The IDF has planned on using the strategy since 2008, and is seen as doing so in the current conflict in Gaza based on the increasing number of civilian casualties. https://m.jpost.com/features/front-lines/the-dahiya-doctrine-fighting-dirty-or-a-knock-out-punch “”The Dahiya Doctrine violates two cardinal principles of International law: The Principle of Distinction and the Principle of Disproportionality… civilians cannot be targeted by armies.” ”The United Nations commissioned a fact-finding mission known as the Goldstone Report, which concluded that the Israeli strategy was "designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population." The international law professor Richard Falk has described Israel's Dahiya Doctrine "not only an overt violation of the most elementary norms of the law of war and of universal morality, but an avowal of a doctrine of violence that needs to be called by its proper name: state terrorism." Theirs a difference between defence and ‘deterrence.’ The definition of defence can be more concrete, whilst deterrence can be stretched out to include civilians and a disproportionate use of force .

The question is what caused them to do that in the first place? If people in the developed west can be sick enough to become serial killers imagine people born into hell, living adjacent to a heaven that could’ve been theirs. To your question - as a nation state wishing to not isolate itself from the world order eliminate the threat in the short term within keeping to international law. In the long term rectify the root causes. War is a fact of world affairs and will be for a long time, the key is it’s regulated. Bombing entire cities will only bombard you with the problem as it crops back up in vengeance - especially if the underlying causes aren’t fixed.

- Can you elaborate on this ‘substantial’ power? Sure, not ‘absolute’ but if 95% controlled ie limited that’s still bad. According to free market capitalism the movement of goods and services is required for growth, is this freedom allowed to them? - That’s how the world works, you violate international law you get condemned or penalised. Israel is lucky they only get the former in lip service and protests but never get held to account by law. - Isreali propaganda perpetuates this victim mentality and ‘threats’ from all around to be used as a pawn for US foreign policy. Bibi has used it to play the strong man saviour and embolden the far right. That narrative would crumble with the Arab world normalising ties. - Responsibility lies upon those that have the power to respond. Power they’ve been deprived of. What else are they to resort to? PLO are in pocket with Isreal, the Palestinians deferred to extremists as a last resort to get them out of their predicament. When they tried peaceful protests such as the March of return women and children got their kneecaps blown.

@Vrubel The Hamas attack is a symptom, so is Hamas. The cause is occupation, siege and blockade of a people - not to mention the humiliation of it being done to them on what was once their land and the violation of international human rights. Israel breaks international law again and again with impunity that no other country has been able to get away with. The goldstone report caused huge uproar against Isreal finally. Bibi said the three greatest threats to Israel were Iran, Hamas and the goldstone report shifting the worlds perception on Israel. But Richard Goldstone backtracked on the report - most likely due to blackmail via Mossad and vilification by Isreali politicians which green lighted Isreal to continue on as always. But the world is different today. With social media things are much more out in the open and the truth of the situation is validated by the worlds protests which makes it evident that Israel is in the wrong. Time for accountability is here, Israel isn’t special and should follow international law. If this ‘war’ passes, it will face its own internal war. This attack has fractured an already disunited Isreali society.

@Happy Lizard Disproportionate force is literally within a protocol called Dahiy doctrine. From Wiki: The Dahiya doctrine, or Dahya doctrine,[1] is a military strategy of asymmetric warfare, outlined by former Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Chief of General Staff Gadi Eizenkot, which encompasses the destruction of the civilian infrastructure of regimes deemed to be hostile as a measure calculated to deny combatants the use of that infrastructure[2] and endorses the employment of "disproportionate force" to secure that end

@Vrubel Norman Finkelstein is worth listening to. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6w249X-uaxQ&pp=ygUcTm9ybWFuIGZpbmtsZXN0ZWluIGludGVydmlldw%3D%3D Power corrupts, but persecution by the hands of the powerful also corrupts those being persecuted. Definition of terrorist: a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. Now apply that at scale and you can see there exists such a thing as a terrorist state ie Israel. Even if we leave aside Gaza - what’s happening in the West Bank is against international law, intimidating, inhumane, and in pursuit of political aims especially emboldened by Ben Gvir who was once a pariah of Isreali politics and even rejected by the IDF for how radical he was. And West Bank is supposedly where Palestinians were supposed to live peacefully or “coexist.” Just so you know, I condemn the Hamas attack - but I also condemn the conditions that brought it about, including those who orchestrated those conditions.

Sam and Eric over intellectualised and got nowhere. Rationality is good but in over doing it you ration away the essence of the thing itself. Interesting analysis from Scot Ritter (ex marine corp) https://x.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1715620378520035510?s=46&t=DuLUbFRQFGpB8oo7PwRglQ

After this ‘war’ Israel will face its own civil unrest, it’s a divided country due to the far right and new laws/powers. A few points that could have led to the Hamas attack - The IDF got complacent and their focus was on the West Bank due to increasing settler violence ( why it took hours for them to get to the south ) - Jewish holiday so a lot of Israelis were possibly distracted - Hamas was losing in the approval polls of Gazans, big drop in approval in the past 2-3 years - this attack would re-establish their dominance. - Saudi (the leader of the Sunni Islamic world) normalising ties with Israel and looking towards the Abraham accords which sidelines the Palestinians - they couldn’t allow this to go ahead. - Bibis judicial changes and more of far right government forming with increased powers for laws to be used to discriminating against Arab Israelis and increase settlements further. The Hamas attack was awful. Just imagine - these guys were literally born into an open air prison, never stepped outside of their walls, no work or economy or hopes. Just pacing back and forth figuring a way out, and being told of the history that this was their land a century ago and now they’re literally treated as subhuman on it. Then you take sentences out of the Quran and interpret them in a way to divinely legitimise their pain and villanize the Jews. The moment they escape from their slavery, they see people partying rite on the border, nice homes and clean streets - a life that could have been theirs. Then they remember their brothers, sisters, mothers or father who were killed by the IDF, and vengeance and barbarity take them over. Do you condemn the Hamas attack? Everyone’s asking this as if to insult peoples moral compass and establish a moral high ground. Of course most sane people condemn it. What should further be condemned however, is the conditions that caused it and to emancipate the Palestinians from their suffering. Theirs a difference between peace and liberation.

@Yousif 100% Religions are almost like cultural flavours. Whichever one you enjoy to participate in or are born into, you only maintain it as to maintain a diversity of culture that make the world richer. All religions speak to the of the same God / Life but differ in their paths / Lifestyles to that God. It's like the saying, before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water. You could still participate in religion but internally your experience of it will be totally different to others who mostly aren't practicing it the way you are. What they take as literal, you take as mythical, what you take in their religious texts as descriptions of the history in which their religion unfolded they take as divinely legitimised prescriptions.

Yes, due to many factors. A big one was simply due to the empire collapsing just as with Rome - political instability and external forces like Crusades and Mongol invasions disrupting their scientific and culture centres. Also, a famous theologan Al-Ghazali critiqued aspects of greek philosophy and science which were being translated and interpreted through an Islamic lens which aided in leading to them discounting interpretations of the Koran. Islam contributed immensely to western enlightenment - Greek and Roman texts were preserved, translated and built upon and philosophers like Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd reintroduced Aristotoles work to the West.

This is a good short excerpt from a talk on Islamic law and interpretation regarding extremism. Most muslims condemn the Islamists and say that what they are doing isn't true Islam - thats muslims I personally know in the UK, USA and across the middle east. I'm born and based in London and have friends from all backgrounds, mingled with them and travelled widely and come from a partial muslim back ground myself also just for context. There are extremist elements for sure, but it isn't the majority. They prey on youth through the shisha cafe culture, discussions on Islam and charismatic speakers talk about the glory of Islam and distort things.

Some Israeli's don't put value on Palestinian life though. Even beside the Hamas attack which was horrific and Gaza, how can Israel explain the injustice in the West Bank? You don't think Palestinian's in Gaza who have literally been born into hell and aren't allowed to even leave without getting sniped, get furious at the increasing settler activity that happened especially this year, which lead them in rage to retaliate the only way they can. And the first thing these 'animals' see is exactly that what you mention, a quality of life, Israeli's partying and enjoying life right on their fence/border whilst their imprisoned in what used to be their land also. Imagine the humiliation and degradation that would make them feel. Im not justifying what they did, but analysing and explaining their state of mind. Too many people decontextualise an isolated event, act or behaviour.