zazen

@Yousif 100% Religions are almost like cultural flavours. Whichever one you enjoy to participate in or are born into, you only maintain it as to maintain a diversity of culture that make the world richer. All religions speak to the of the same God / Life but differ in their paths / Lifestyles to that God. It's like the saying, before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water. You could still participate in religion but internally your experience of it will be totally different to others who mostly aren't practicing it the way you are. What they take as literal, you take as mythical, what you take in their religious texts as descriptions of the history in which their religion unfolded they take as divinely legitimised prescriptions.

Yes, due to many factors. A big one was simply due to the empire collapsing just as with Rome - political instability and external forces like Crusades and Mongol invasions disrupting their scientific and culture centres. Also, a famous theologan Al-Ghazali critiqued aspects of greek philosophy and science which were being translated and interpreted through an Islamic lens which aided in leading to them discounting interpretations of the Koran. Islam contributed immensely to western enlightenment - Greek and Roman texts were preserved, translated and built upon and philosophers like Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd reintroduced Aristotoles work to the West.

This is a good short excerpt from a talk on Islamic law and interpretation regarding extremism. Most muslims condemn the Islamists and say that what they are doing isn't true Islam - thats muslims I personally know in the UK, USA and across the middle east. I'm born and based in London and have friends from all backgrounds, mingled with them and travelled widely and come from a partial muslim back ground myself also just for context. There are extremist elements for sure, but it isn't the majority. They prey on youth through the shisha cafe culture, discussions on Islam and charismatic speakers talk about the glory of Islam and distort things.

Some Israeli's don't put value on Palestinian life though. Even beside the Hamas attack which was horrific and Gaza, how can Israel explain the injustice in the West Bank? You don't think Palestinian's in Gaza who have literally been born into hell and aren't allowed to even leave without getting sniped, get furious at the increasing settler activity that happened especially this year, which lead them in rage to retaliate the only way they can. And the first thing these 'animals' see is exactly that what you mention, a quality of life, Israeli's partying and enjoying life right on their fence/border whilst their imprisoned in what used to be their land also. Imagine the humiliation and degradation that would make them feel. Im not justifying what they did, but analysing and explaining their state of mind. Too many people decontextualise an isolated event, act or behaviour.

@Breakingthewall Their was plenty of contextualisation and scholarship in Islamic history which made it a more reasoned religion and a thriving progressive one at its time, and plenty of interpretation (tafsir). Certain schools and strains of Islam which are very simplistic in understanding became popular and promoted heavily across the muslims world - particularly Wahhabism through petrodollar wealth that landed upon the Saudi's. That, along with Western funding to fight against the soviets and the subsequent war on terror and destruction in the region further radicalised them. They were armed with a radical mind, now they had a justification to take up arms in service of their ideology. They politicised and militarised religious dogma. The radicalising of the average muslim is very over blown however. Even at the height of ISIS, from the UK for example which as a muslim population of 3 million, the max estimate for ISIS fighters who had gone was 1'500. Thats 0.05% of muslims, that get major representation in the media as equivalent to the muslims living in the West. Wiki'' A more accurate source from the BBC estimates around 850 people from the UK had traveled to Iraq and Syria to support or fight for jihadist groups'' year 2014.

@Maximilian Both sides are being radicalised. Extremist strains of any religion or ideology divinely legitimise un-divine distortions of that religion or idea. How is what is termed as an 'open air prison' supposed to get their shit together and develop when blockaded? Al Jazeera : ''The siege has led to shortages of basic items such as food and fuel. It has also stymied Gaza’s potential for long-term economic development. Chronic problems, such as access to education, healthcare and clean water, have become more pronounced.'' Those aware of spiral dynamics like us on this forum can easily fall into pigeon holing a entire population to certain developmental stages simply due to their leadership, and conflate development of different domains ie if their not developed politically (ideally democratic) that means they aren't developed morally (thus savages) and then we like to view ourselves in the West as morally superior. The ego can use integral philosophy and spiral dynamics to discriminate in self aggrandisement instead of discern the nuances of it. If Hamas are terrorists then they would surely terrorise their own population into submission thus rendering election invalid - so they don't represent their population in the truest sense. By that logic, democracy represents the people more closely in which case the USA doing its regime change around the world and dropping atomic bombs in Hiroshima is representative of its population being morally corrupt and at a lower stage of development than what is advertised. If a person with stage orange/green psychology was put under condition such as the Palestinians you don't think they could act out the same? The conditions can supplant and corrupt the state of conscience of that person, but we view them as 'less developed' in consciousness. In an earlier post Leo mentioned what makes them (Hamas) savage and barbaric is not what they do or how many they kill (quantity) but how they kill (quality). Beasts eat, man dines - beasts copulate, man makes love , same act but imbued with a conscience quality separates man from animal. These acts don't however fall under the moral sphere as heavily as killing do because they don't violate the do no harm principle. Killing is killing, whether done barbarically or in a sophisticated manner as drone attacks. The aesthetic difference doesn't make the act more or less moral, or the people committing it more or less 'developed.' We can be developed or not in different domains - the West's culture seems to be degenerate to the rest of the world and vulgar (Cardi B, promiscuity etc) - should that be equated with the Wests level of moral development also? Because a lot of the world view it as such and make the same mistake of equating the two - the same way we in the West equate the peoples of a region with their despotic leaders - who in fact are coup d'etat'ed into power and kept their by the West to serve industrial interests.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

The progressive ''development'' of civilisation is conflated with culture or state of consciousness. Civilisation is about tools, that which is wielded. Culture is of consciousness, the wielder himself. Civilisation is about achievements, quantitative. Culture is about awakening, qualitative. What good is it to perfect the tool wielded in the hand when that hand be shaky of what it holds and worse, malevolent with it. A ''developed'' and ''modern'' nation has more powerful and sophisticated tools at its disposable to misuse its power and propagandise its people. Corruption is finite in its goodwill, but infinite in its will to disguise itself as good, and a nation with more power will exercise its malevolence in more covert ways that blind us to it. What we call democracy is really a Ethnocracy. In the same way spiral dynamics makes a distinction between waking up and growing up, I think their needs to be made a distinction between civilisation and culture. Civilisation develops power, culture inculcates a state of being worthy of having a prowess of that power. Less developed people don't mean less developed in heart or good conscience, but in the physical sphere of quantitative power and technology - but we equate the two. The fear is of Palestinians getting revenge on Israel for the past. It depends on what sort of Islam is predominant, but the extremist strains of it have been funded by the West and radicalised to the point that now Muslim countries aren't even trusted to have strong military capabilities. Real cluster fuck of a situation. Of course, if the muslims de-radicalise and embrace the more liberal versions of Islam as practiced before that gave birth to the golden age then there would be no worries. But all this regime change crusade around the middle east and war on terror propaganda to demonise a Islam has only made it worse and inflamed divisive religious lines.

Whether it was IDF or a Hamas misfire - to get to the bottom line of something the whole page needs to be read ie context. The context of why there is this conflict in the first place.

? Israel is isolating and villianizing itself on the world stage all by itself. Suicide by arrogant stupidity.

The global south condemns Isreal barring India except the 200million+ Muslims. Latin America also - look at what Colombia has said. Now Canada has condemned the attack as a war crime, Turkey condemned the Hospital attack to which Israel has called its citizens to leave immediately in a childish reaction. They act like an arrogant narcissist on the world stage. This is what Hamas wanted, objective achieved.

Hamas has already won via perception. Look at how the worlds come out to protest vs the mainstream narrative the legacy brands portray. Complete disconnect. Isreal have over reacted and will be seen as demonic. They stopped Saudi’s normalisation of ties with Israel and a hold on or throwing out of the Abraham accords. Saudi is the epicentre of Islam, Israel normalising with Saudi is like them shaking hands with the entire Muslim world which Hamas won’t allow. Majority of the Saudi population oppose the Abraham accords already and MBS is changing a lot all at once already upsetting the conservative elders and mullahs so normalising with Israel after this would cause a huge back lack lash for the Kingdom. I hope for peace to come faster and for their not to be a rise in antisemitism due to all this. The question is how far does Israel have to go till Hezbollah comes knocking.

Pretty mind blowing video from Scott Ritter on Israel’s situation which is worth a watch. Some points from it: The IDF are following the Dahiya doctrine. Wiki:“”The Dahiya doctrine, or Dahya doctrine,[1] is a military strategy of asymmetric warfare, outlined by former Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Chief of General Staff Gadi Eizenkot, which encompasses the destruction of the civilian infrastructure of regimes deemed to be hostile as a measure calculated to deny combatants the use of that infrastructure[2] and endorses the employment of "disproportionate force" to secure that end. “ Hamas have tunnels deep enough to avoid any explosives from above to collapse them. They know what explosives Isreal procure and build to depths to avoid them having any affect. This is a trap to lure Isreal into over reaction and be condemned by the world because they know they follow the doctrine. Once lured in and Hezbollah gets involved all bets are off. They lost to Hezbollah twice, and Hezbollah has a honeycomb of tunnels in south Lebanon which they’d get slaughtered in not to mention a two front war and Syria from the Golan heights turning into a 3 front war. Two exercise drills were done the past two years by IDF called firm hand and chariots of fire which simulated them face to face with Hamas and in both they lost - according to Scott Ritter who seems highly qualified. IDF’s reservists aren’t battle hardened warriors like a lot of the Islamist fighters. They’re scared to go in, most of them would rather smoke hashish or go Dubai than face war. Once the international community has had enough of seeing Gazans killed and Hezbolllah getting more involved and on the brink of Iran possibly, US will step in to settle a solution and offer Isreal a strategic defeat to not lose face.

They’re following the Dahiya doctrine. From Wiki: “”The Dahiya doctrine, or Dahya doctrine,[1] is a military strategy of asymmetric warfare, outlined by former Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Chief of General Staff Gadi Eizenkot, which encompasses the destruction of the civilian infrastructure of regimes deemed to be hostile as a measure calculated to deny combatants the use of that infrastructure[2] and endorses the employment of "disproportionate force" to secure that end. “ They themselves use human shields of Palestinians next to their tanks and shoot from behind them as they walk towards Hamas. Hamas is said to use human shields too but more so they are in a densely populated area and are amongst people fighting back which can be re-labelled as human shield. Hamas have tunnels deep enough to avoid any explosives from above to collapse them. They know what explosives Isreal procure and build to depths to avoid them having any affect. This is a trap to lure Isreal into over reaction and be condemned by the world because they know they follow the doctrine. Once lured in and Hezbollah gets involved all bets are off. They lost to Hezbollah twice, and Hezbollah has a honeycomb of tunnels in south Lebanon which they’d get slaughtered in not to mention a two front war and Syria from the Golan heights turning into a 3 front war. Two exercise drills were done the past two years by IDF called firm hand and chariots of fire which simulated them face to face with Hamas and in both they lost - according to Scott Ritter who seems highly qualified. IDF’s reservists aren’t battle hardened warriors like a lot of the Islamist fighters. They’re scared to go in, most of them would rather smoke hashish or go Dubai than face war. Once the international community has had enough of seeing Gazans killed and Hezbolllah getting more involved and in the brink of Iran possibly, most likely US will step in to settle a solution and offer Isreal a appropriate defeat to not lose face. Maybe.

The quagmire is that as a group, the Jews, who have endured the trauma of the Holocaust, are resettled in the land of another group, the Palestinians, displacing them in a Nakba, causing their own trauma. This amalgamation of suffering involves a third group, the British, who themselves are traumatised by World War and the decline of their empire Then you underpin that trauma with the religion of one group (Islam) that has negative verses of the other group in their holy text - with the other groups religion (Judaism) which claims them to be the chosen people, and both groups having terms to identify those outside themselves (kufar and goyim) which perpetuates a tribalistic in-out group dynamic. What a mess. When two parties are traumatised, any leaders within them who want to transcend that suffering and come to peace with it in order to come to peace with those that caused it - will be taken down by those that fail to transcend that suffering and instead make an identity out of it in the form of victimhood. The peace makers rob the identity of those who haven’t come to peace with their suffering and who instead relish in it in the form of entitlement and grandiosity. They misrepresent the peace maker as one who invalidates their suffering which is their identity and meaning for existence.

Hamas leadership has faced multiple killings but they still prop up and renew. As long as innocent Gazans are killed in the process, that leaves many behind to be radicalised off the back off trauma from their lost loved ones. They are mostly in the bunkers, so toppling the buildings isn't even getting to them - just destroying homes and radicalising more Gazans into the ranks of Hamas. Hamas are underground in bunkers and tunnels. Whats worse, ground invasion in broad daylight into buildings and rooms with traps or underground into a dark labrynth of tunnels and bunkers.

This 100% Even to the North, Hamas fired two rockets into a empty farm area not to kill but more as a sign of solidarity to the Palestinian side that we are with you, and as a cautionary warning to Israel to not be too heavy handed - but they overreacted and started going for it as well as attacking Syrian airports. @Nivsch Israel don't have strategy, they are flustered and knee jerk reacting to everything at the moment which is suicidal. Those drunk on power aren't rational and need to save face and position - Bibi built his identiy off being the strong man and saviour of Israel and will look to maintain that to distract from domestic issues. If Israel provokes Hamas from the South, Hezbollah from the North, Syria from the side and Palestinians from within thats a 4 front war they will lose without the US and allies getting involved which will then involve Iran, Russia and Turkey into a much bigger issue.

Self defence doesn't mean exterminate - which is what cutting water food and electricity covertly does including not allowing aid. If that level of self defence is justified then by that definition one could justify the holocasut as a defence against the ''perceived'' financial terrorism imposed on Europeans via interest based loans that were given at the hands of Jewish money lenders. We can keep stretching the definition of self defence to absurdity. Self defence becomes laughable when it crosses the line from penalisation to extermination of the one who caused harm. For example, a woke lefty wanting to cancel someone for not using the correct pronoun or in this case level a area more denser than Tokyo half of which have children. Its not just a population, their refugees and children.

And are still served being served by a Christian at the bar. I must confess the devil in me went down the clickbait route - should have used this instead. @PurpleTree He is versed in debate and apologetics but the problem I see with him and other muslims in particular is their delivery and tone is off-putting and aggressive - that doesn't invalidate his reasoning. They have reason to be angry but it doesn't help their cause when its brought in to debate and represent their cause. Fear and intimidation shut off the rational mind. That is also a tactic of debate, to distract and emotionalise the other side so they become more illogical and incoherent in their rebuttals.

Very well put. Saying that, who has more say and sway in the peace process - those that have more freedom of expression and more democratic power to vote in leadership and policies that are pro peace, or a people with no democratic vote or voice towards their repressive leadership. The process has to start with the ones with more power, but end with those they wish to have peace with. Side note: the same system that allows for freedom of expression also has more sophistication to propagandise its very people to be oppressive to others.

We don't know what we're talking about? Or you just cant logically respond to whats being talked about. No one's saying Jews don't have a right to exist or live there, it just shouldn't come at the expense of others living there inhumanely, especially those that were there when they got there. Scott Ritter also served in the Military during desert storm, yet he's come to a much more humane and rational view on the issue of Israel / Palestine.

Giving settlements back is difficult because the settlers epitomise the most extreme segment of the zionist movement, with the highest birth rate and demographic future. Thats a huge voting bloc the establishment don't want to upset, but that Isreali's are aware of that are causing many issues with Palestinians in the West Bank and which only provoke Hamas more. A lot of Isrealis just want to live in peace but a sizable portion also perpetuate hatred, just like among the Palestinians you have extremists who want to play zero sum games. https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/2/28/23617766/israeli-settler-rampage-palestine-violence-government From Wiki: Palestinians are the target of violence by Jewish Israeli settlers and their supporters, predominantly in the West Bank.[3] In November 2021, Defense Minister Benny Gantz discussed the steep rise in the number of incidents between settlers and Palestinians in the West Bank, many of which result from attacks by residents of illegal settler outposts on Palestinians from neighboring villages.[4] Palestinian police are forbidden from reacting to acts of violence by Israeli settlers, a fact which diminishes their credibility among Palestinians.[5] UN figures from 2011 showed that 90% of complaints filed against settlers by Palestinians with the Israeli police never led to indictment

Humans aren't rational creatures as much as we are rationalising ones. We die for fiction and dreams more than truth, we take them as truth when they are only symbols of it. This is why Leo says we need to go meta, beyond ego and identification. Most on this forum may be able to, and thats a forum inclined to self development, but the world to go meta? One can only hope.

I contemplated this also but looking at the facts of the situation it would be unviable for a few reasons beside the fact of displacing people from their land being immoral. Europe - not just one country but a continent of wealthier countries who have more of a capability of accommodating refugees struggled to absorb 1.5 million migrants and that as well over a 8 year period. Now imagine, not 1.5 million but 2 million Palestinians (just from Gaza alone - 2.8 million extra if your suggesting all Palestinians from West Bank also) migrate to already struggling countries who aren't as wealthy as European ones, a lot of which are war torn, and that too in the span of months not years. Egypt being the closest option is already strained with its 100million + population. The 1948 Arab Isreali wars that led to significant refugees triggered multiple coups in the middle east destabilising the region. If Egypt destabilises, a population of 110 million people - Europe will face a migrant crises like no other.