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There were protestors for those as well. The difference with this is that its been going on for decades without end, building and brewing. And now with more right wing nationalist governments coming to power all over the world Israel is ahead and gone too far right with its policies and encroaching of the West Bank for example. That mixed with social media today where all is visible is what’s made the world awake to this cause. People have been condemning Hamas but also are for the Palestinians to be made free. Can you see that Israel is an apartheid state? Babies dying in hospitals due to lack of electricity and resources that Israel has cut off. Is every Hospital or the whole of Northern Gaza a Hamas camp site or base? This is just unjustifiable - even Israel’s own allies such as Belgium and Macron from France are saying this. Even when Elon Musl says that Israel’s strategy will only create more Hamas fighters pro Israelis just say he’s unwise and doesn’t know any better. The arrogance and narcissism is palpable - and in the end parasitic to the host that harbours it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna124786

Most people don’t support terrorists but a just cause to resist oppression and a modern day apartheid state which needs be dismantled in a post apartheid world. Modernity has no appetite for apartheid. Yes, the cause which at its core is a resistance movement was used by terrorist factions or more extreme people who use terrorist tactics - but that doesn’t invalidate the cause or excuse Israel’s actions. If someone thinks a solution to the Palestinian issue is that they should remain under the rule or control of Israel because they are undeveloped or may cause terror you are calling for an apartheid state. Apartheid as a system, is inherently discriminatory and involves institutionalized racial segregation and discrimination. That makes them a racist at worst and a racist sympathiser at best.

Israel in reality already exists as a one state but as an apartheid state (they occupy West Bank and control Gaza). We live in a post apartheid world and Israel’s current form is just not acceptable to modern sentiments. That is all that people are calling an end to, not Israelis or Jews themselves. Seeing the current situation and what’s wrong about it isn’t complicated - it’s getting to the solution that is complicated.

People tend to link specific words with extreme scenarios. For instance, when hearing "ethnic cleansing," the immediate association is often with mass killings, like the Holocaust. However, ethnic cleansing also involves expulsion or displacement, as seen in current situations, such as Gazans being pushed towards Egypt or people from the West Bank moving into Jordan. While these events may not reach the extreme levels of mechanistic killing seen in the Holocaust, they still represent instances of ethnic cleansing. The extreme cases often shape our understanding of the associated words, even if the current reality is not identical.

That's the crux of the matter, whats the reason for the war in the first place. There's a difference between ISIS who's reason for war is to establish Islamic Globalism and a group resisting on what was their homeland but using religion to give juice to their cause . Securing a living space for their race is what Hitler was going for, and what hard line Zionism orients around - ethnocentric racial superiority - but this time they have religious sentiments such as being the chosen people to fuel it further whilst living in a time where the standards of what is right and wrong have changed ie colonial expansion and expulsion being bad. So they play the long game and this can only occur strategically and slowly enough to go under the radar of the international community. You mentioned in a earlier post, the idea of Palestinians or other Arabs probably being better managed under Israeli or Western leadership because they are unable to govern themselves. If I heard that anywhere else Id mistake that for being a colonial apologist - the belief that people have to earn their liberation by submitting to oppression, to prove that they will be responsible with their liberation because they are less developed. By that logic lets bend over to the Japanese at how orderly and respectfully they seem to live. Allow a people their own growth or whatever is imposed will be disposed by retaliation, rebellion and resistance. If Israel or any countries safety requires the occupation, imprisonment and oppression of a people, you don't have safety and never will. History has shown us this by the dismantling of the colonial powers. Everything that colonial power will have will be inherently violent and must be upheld through violence - that violence will be justified through ideas of superiority and the idea that those you oppress must be more violent and oppressive than you. And when that oppression is resisted as it always has been, that violence will be used to feed the fear of safety needed to maintain that cycle, a cycle set in motion by the colonizers first and which frames the colonized as the undeveloped violent ones that need be tamed in a modern world. Having developed capabilities doesn't automatically mean a having developed character or consciousness. There are tribes with little technological or political development yet they have pure hearts and will share their food and homes with you, despite lacking material abundance.

Curios to know what viewpoints you guys disagree on within the video. Before assuming he's a radical Islamist you can check this video where he critiques the Islamists obsession with establishing Islamic state for example:

The current occupied areas by the Russians were part of Russia historically and the population there were more pro Russian so he could just take that land and have a strategic win + gain respect domestically. Occupying the other parts of Ukraine would be never ending struggle as they are more heavily opposed to Russia - it would be a Israel/Palestine situation that never ends. Putin got what was Russia's historically and further created a buffer zone to secure Russia against Nato. Pretty sure that would be the end of it. The West also want to shift resources to the Middle East for the war on terror 2.0.

True, that's why if you can't trust their character, you can at best trust them to pursue their own interest. Not as much need to rely on character, consciousness or stage of development when you can rely on self interest of both parties aligning. A stage orange person who's money oriented may start a business with a stage green person who's environmentally oriented - the sustainable business and social investing trend. Different values, but they align to cooperate. Even the ESG movement is basically the marrying of the capitalist financiers with the anti-capitalist social liberals. The capitalists still get to make money whilst appeasing and avoiding revolution from the socialists. Europe established peace after world war by the same means, cooperation and economic interdependence - the deeper connection came later. Likewise the US with its strong navy established the safety of sea lanes and global flow of trade to allow countries to become more dependent on each other which aligned their interests despite their opposing sentiments. Even with this conflict, we can see who among the Muslim world is the most and least vocal depends on who is the most interdependent. Saudi is less vocal as they depend on the USA for security. They may not trust USA, but their incentives align - Saudi gets security whilst US gets a stronghold in the region including petrodollar. USA becoming a net energy exporter thanks to shale etc obviously changes that which is why Saudi has to orient towards peace among the region including with Iran. Turkey has been more vocal because although they do trade a lot with the West, financial ties can more easily be re-oriented away but security not - and security is more of a need over prosperity. Turkey has one of the strongest armies in the region and isn't dependent and left as vulnerable. To see people made refugees is sad, but to see refugees on their own land made refugees once again with whats happening now is appalling.

Peace only requires cooperation, not deep connection. It is operational based on incentive and personal gain rather than intention and personal trust. It's more of a association rather than a brother/sisterhood alliance. When each side can't trust the others intention - hidden heart of the other, they can rely on incentives to align and the hidden hand of personal gain to allow their society to at least be operational and civil. Distrusting everyone's wiser than trusting everyone, but knowing who to trust is superior to both. Good judgement grants the freedom to trust as without judgment you get hurt less by simply assuming everyone is bad - the opportunity cost however is peace, prosperity and passing on the good people among the other side. The more actively distrusting you are whether as a person or country, the more cautious others are of you - in a sense you only condemn and hurt yourself. This is what Israel does when it shuns world opinion. Netenyahu and his cabinets narcissistic middle finger to the world is its loss. Using spiral dynamics lingo for this - if you can't trust their state of being, you can rely on structural incentive (state vs structure). The question is what structure of society best incentives both towards peace? A apartheid like structure with unequal rights and a security apparatus that discriminates on a segment of the population definitely doesn't.

''For every Hamas member you kill how many do you create? And if you create more than you kill, you've not succeeded.'' - Elon Musk This video by the Israeli professor Sam Vaknin seems very fair and objective. Unfortunately, it seems a solution barely exists or would be hard to come to fruition.

@DawnC It's a complex situation with a long history of back and forths that will take a lot of time to delve into every detail of. I see wrongs on both sides and a just cause on both also, but for practical purposes we can either discuss the current situation going forward and the general root cause of the issue. Labels often confine us to the actions associated with those labels more than they liberate us. Labels are like psychic chains, nationalities are like psychic cages and literal interpretations of religion are like a psychic straitjacket. Each more confining, restricting and stubborn. Both parties have mutually exclusive claims to the land, divinely legitimized by their religions. It's very hard to negotiate over land that is claimed holy by both sides, especially in the case of Jerusalem and the site of Al Aqsa. Wishful thinking would be for either or both of them to discard religion and give away parts of the land, but even non religious people have land disputes. What makes it harder is that it's a small piece of land with limited resources, and we expect both parties who feel entitled to this land to negotiate over this. The peace proposals never admitted full sovereignty to the Palestinians, the security apparatus from Israels side that they insisted on setting up in Palestine feels intrusive and could at any time creep towards authoritarian - as has been confirmed by whats happening in the West Bank. This nullifies a two state solution defined by Israel that wishes to 'occupy' the Palestinian side with some form of security to thwart any future terrorism - including the plans to handle Gaza indefinetley as Netenyahu is saying. They will not be governed peacefully by a regime that just bombarded their homes and killed their loved ones. If people are tamed like animals - every movement, thought and action - they will lash out like such for the freedom to be human again. To add insult to injury, this is not only done in a random land but on their own home land which humiliates them further and only adds to an angered resistance that eventually erupts. *Solutions* Genocide by expulsion won't work as they will only plot their return from slightly further away (Egypt or Jordan), two state won't work because no side is willing to capitulate to what they feel entitlement to, one state governed by Israel won't work because they have shown to abuse their position of power by being complicit in settlement expansion and unequal rights. That leaves a one state solution ideally a secular state with equal rights for all or possibly a Lebanon style system where each side is given positions of power equally in governing the country. In practice, a quasi one state already exists with Israel controlling Gaza, and occupying the West Bank. Is it feasible though? Are both sides willing to work for this? I'm not sure after all thats happened, but if Jews are able to live within Europe and especially in Germany where Nazi's once industrially massacred them, then hopefully they can live together and put the past aside.

The ridiculous thing about the situation is that people A (Brits) gave people B (Jews) another people C's (Palestinians) land. It's like me giving away money that isn't even mine. When the British empire de-colonised it usually was giving the local people its land back, but in this particular case, it gave the land to another group and hoped for the best. This remark about why don't the many Arab states take the Palestinians in - why should they? Jordan is already a 1/3 Palestinian, Egypt has enough domestic pressure handling its own impoverished people with its limited infrastructure - and people expect to capitulate to Israel's demands and take their burden or wrong doings. Should the French go and live in Spain, or the Italians in Spain? Their European and similar after all? But that isn't the point, even among Arabs there are distinct cultures and peoples married to their geographies. Why do other people suffer (Palestinians) for others sins. It wasn't the Arabs who heavily persecuted the Jews historically, it was the Europeans and at its climax the Nazi's committing the Holocaust. The Europeans taking Israels side completely with double standards is them ridding themselves of the guilt of their past atrocities against the Jews. Most people aren't calling for the elimination of Israel - just the current form it takes in the way it persecutes the Palestinians - and to give them the rights and dignity on their own home land which they share.

It doesn't work because the Palestinian authority have held to the peace agreements since the Oslo accord and all they've got in the West Bank is increasing settlements and authoritarianism from Israel. Israel don't do anything to stop the settlements so they are complicit in them. This is what gives more authority and support to Hamas because Palestinians see the Palestinian authority as having no back bone or ability to support the rights and just cause of the Palestinians. They are left with no choice. Palestinians have tried all avenues. Proposals and deals were always unjust and didn't meet the basic requirements of the Palestinians (for example no control of their Jordan border for at least 15 years), they tried peaceful protest in 2018 with the march of return - IDF shot at disabled people, medics, journalists and children. What their left with is a violent resistance in the end. The root cause of this whole issue is occupation and hindering their development even when they aren't ''fully'' occupied - everything is controlled to the point they aren't able to develop economically, socially etc. The excuse used to stop their development is the potential for terror, yet stopping their development causes resistance to arise in the ugliest form of terror.

I wonder if any commercial interest have got to do with the dedication to take Gaza and expel the Palestinians from it - prime beach front real estate, energy sector, transport canal. https://www.planetcritical.com/p/everybody-wants-gazas-gas https://www.offshore-technology.com/news/israel-awards-gas-exploration-licences/#:~:text=Israel has awarded 12 licences,are divided into two groups. The Ben Gurion canal has to go around Gaza which is very costly. If it could cut through the North of Gaza it would save a lot of money and transport time / cost. https://www.eurasiareview.com/07112023-alternate-suez-canal-the-israeli-ben-gurion-canal-oped/

Why wouldn't they have the ability? Is it because their subhuman 'animals'? Israel can't block their economic development, and then claim that they are incapable of economic development. Then we look on from our comfortable homes and feel as if we're more 'developed' and higher up on the spiral stages than them. ''JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel’s blockade of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip has cost the seaside territory as much as $16.7 billion in economic losses and sent poverty and unemployment skyrocketing, a U.N. report said Wednesday, as it called on Israel to lift the closure. The report by the U.N. Conference on Trade and Development echoed calls by numerous international bodies over the years criticizing the blockade. But its findings, looking at an 11-year period ending in 2018, marked perhaps the most detailed analysis of the Israeli policy to date.'' The claim to a land because of historic roots can be taken to any degree. For example we could all go to South Africa's gold mine region, take that land from the people and then negotiate with them on how much is fair for us to take and for them to keep - because we have a common ancestry connection from 100'000 years ago. And when they resist, especially with arms we call them terrorists and gaslight them.

@Nivsch They left in 2005 but not completely. Control of borders, air space, sea and essentials such as food/water which can be leveraged against them at any time is not completely leaving. It may not be a death camp, but its close enough to a concentration camp. You said you think the protests are waking up the world to see how violent and stupid the people within them are but its in fact the opposite. There are some extremists but that's a very small minority. The protests are peaceful and people are waking up to the inhumane conditions the Palestinians have been suffering for decades and even questioning why their governments fund/support Israel including many Jews. By law it is the occupied people who have a right to resist, even the right to armed resistance. If people want to keep going back in history to a time when their ancestors once lived in such and such land then we can all go back to many different lands including Africa where humans originated and claim all the resource riches as a bonus.

Caitlin Johnston from twitter: “One of the reasons this specific bombing campaign is getting so much more public backlash than others is because the pro-Palestine movement has had generations to build, whereas when the US empire lays waste to a country using military explosives it's normally a fast ordeal which moves from manufacturing consent to execution very quickly. By the time people figure out they were lied to about the justifications for a depraved war the empire is usually two or three new wars down the track. The Israel-Palestine issue has been just sitting there for decades, so there's been time to accumulate popular opposition. Once someone learns about the realities of the Palestinian plight they very seldom abandon their support for it, so every newly-opened pair of eyes stays open on this issue for a lifetime. Another major reason is because of humanity's exponentially expanded ability to rapidly share information in recent years. Palestinians have become able to record the abuses of Israeli apartheid and bombing campaigns on their phones and upload them onto the internet, where they rapidly circulate on social media. This ability to rapidly circulate raw video footage has played a major role in Israel's PR problem in recent years, because there's nothing an Israel apologist can say that will have more impact than raw footage of an Israeli settler telling a Palestinian family that he stole their home because "If I don't steal it, someone else is gonna steal it." This killed off a lot of public sympathy for Israel in the lead-up to the current onslaught. Another reason is because the pro-Palestine movement was carried on the tide of the global movement against apartheid South Africa, giving the world a framework to understand Israeli abuses and helping to build the base of a related cause. Another reason is because many of us in colonized countries like Australia, the US and Canada recognize the patterns of what's happening in Israel and see that there's an opportunity for human history to get it right this time before the genocide machine really gets going. Another reason is because the abuses of the Israeli regime are so glaringly obvious and uncomplicated that they can override all the propaganda and cognitive biases we are swimming in in western civilization. All most people need is to really see it and wrap their minds around what they're seeing, and truth does the rest of the work for them. That was true before the Gaza massacre began, and it's so much more true now.”

Why did Israel deny the 50 hostages Hamas offered? Why is Israel bombing complete blocks if they care about the hostages? @Emerald Very well said. A nice phrase I like to keep in mind - marginalisation leads to radicalisation. Similar problem with the Pakistan and India partition that the British facilitated - Pakistan was created as a state for the muslim population of India. That event displaced 15 million roughly and up to 2 million dead. Labels and identities confine you the the actions that are associated to only them, and creating state's based on narrower identities will naturally end up being more exclusive to those outside of that identity. Muslims and Jews lived peacefully in the Palestine region for 100's of years, but once the label of Zionism came in, that corrupted the psyche and actions up to this day.

That’s disgusting of that activist to say. There’s extremists on both sides. This is what Palestinians are dealing with for example: https://x.com/subjectiveviews/status/1721372139905839306?s=46&t=DuLUbFRQFGpB8oo7PwRglQ The difference is the extremists on the Palestinian side are made extreme by the extreme conditions their born into whilst the extremists on the Israeli side are made extreme via culture and upbringing. The Palestinians can and are of course being raised in extreme ways also but their living conditions give birth to that extreme ideology - conditions imposed by Israel. Israelis use past extreme conditions (Holocaust and being exiled from multiple communities) in the present day where anti Semitism isn't such a big issue. The creation of a ethno-state like Israel to those hardships Jews faced was the cure, but that cure brings about its own ailments and side effects - mainly when creating it the displacement of the indigenous people and for its continued existence apartheid like conditions for the Arabs due to the fear of them resisting or what the ignorant narrative likes to call terrorism. But it’s many politicians or who have spoken in a genocidal manner. I think power not only corrupts but it attracts the most corrupt personalities from the population.

If leaders and politicians reflect the population then what about Israel’s? A democracy reflects the people more than a dictator, so Israel’s leadership is more accurately representing its people than say Hamas - among the politicians you have guys calling to use nukes as an option. https://news.sky.com/story/amp/netanyahu-suspends-israeli-minister-for-saying-dropping-nuclear-bomb-on-gaza-one-of-the-possibilities-13001055 20-30% isn’t a big chunk of the population as you mention below.

@Gennadiy1981 Thanks will give it a listen. https://news.sky.com/story/amp/netanyahu-suspends-israeli-minister-for-saying-dropping-nuclear-bomb-on-gaza-one-of-the-possibilities-13001055 From Twitter : So people understand where we are. An Israeli cabinet minister called for dropping a nuclear bomb in Gaza. He got a pat in the back from the Prime Minister. His comments were carefully ignored in the global debate. In the meantime the revenge impulse is so strong it even overrides Israel’s long-established policy of not publicly admitting it has nukes.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyYiXStoAer/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyYiXStoAer/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://news.sky.com/story/amp/netanyahu-suspends-israeli-minister-for-saying-dropping-nuclear-bomb-on-gaza-one-of-the-possibilities-13001055 https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1721239223091536228?s=46&t=DuLUbFRQFGpB8oo7PwRglQ Not a good look for those governing Israel

Speaking on Zionism