zazen

An advert in Haaretz newspaper on September 22, 1967 from the socialist organisation at the time known as Matzpen: "This Zionism of conquest (as opposed to coexistence) is suicidal for Israel and for the West that supports it. The real security of a state is when it gets along well with all its neighbours. However, such a strategy of forced expulsion of the descendants of the inhabitants who lived for centuries in Ottoman Palestine has very little chance of ever being accepted by Israel's neighbours, near or far. This is the perfect recipe for eternal war. Even the United States might one day grow tired of the arrogance of an Israeli right that denies Palestinians the very fact of being a nation. The prolongation of this war is also suicidal for the West. Because it hands over on a silver platter to Vladimir Putin a double gift he dared not dream of: the daily proof of the double standards in Western moral lessons." - Renaud Girard Interesting speech at Oxford union 8 years ago:

President Jimmy Carter

I think it can only take a small percentage of radicals to lead a society in a bad direction. What about this poll from Israel’s democratic institute: What’s your thoughts on this video:

@Danioover9000 Lol, all in good faith. True, important we know what each of us means by our definitions or else we're just talking past each other. Doesn't it exist at the expense of never offering the other side a fair sovereign state that when they fight for the dignity of they're subjugated, oppressed and gaslighted for as savage. The military occupied area of West Bank which could possibly be their future state gets continually eaten away at through settlements - that's not a peaceful atmosphere for negotiations. From the river to the sea has different interpretations but in practice they have negotiated and come close to accepting recognised borders (not from the river to the sea) but these deals fell through on other details such as right of return, rights to resources (water), demilitarisation and the issue of still having Israeli security points within their 'sovereign' state. So Israel would always have the means to protect themselves but the Palestinians don't? Likuds charter also mentions from the river to the sea and that no other sovereignty will be recognised within it. On the contrary and in practical reality Israel has implemented that via military occupation and settlement expansion in the West Bank and now clearing out Gaza - that's actually from the river to the sea in practice and not just in ink. Palestinians have one of the highest literacy rates in the Arab world. West Bank is littered with check points and trouble for kids on the way to school not to mention delays and clashes which obviously restrict access - including permits restricting development of enough schools. I guess they are also preoccupied with securing their survival before higher aspirations of higher education like in Gaza where schools are routinely destroyed or damaged through periodic operations which btw the current destruction of schools only shifts these kids into what will probably come to be make shift camps where Hamas can more easily recruit motivated vengeful kids who've had loved ones die. Couldn't the October 7th atrocity likewise be provoked by past atrocities done to Palestinians. Just by the numbers alone they have suffered far more deaths than Israeli's and much more discrimination - this can never justify a genocide however and each life matters besides the numbers. The elderly politicians themselves aren't fighting yet it's 'old men who plan for wars that young men die for'. It is admirable of Israeli society to create a sense of national pride and unity (as long as that doesn't manifest in particularly ugly ethno-nationalistic ways) and the meaning that comes with that. 'Man dies for fiction more so than facts' - we are dreaming creatures that die more readily for symbols we attribute meaning to (a religion, a flag, a idea) The centre of gravity has moved much more right blurring the middle and aligning the society especially when it comes to this war and after October 7th. The polls showing Netanyahu popularity plummeting is good at least, though other troubling polls show over 75% believe in Gazan's leaving Gaza being a good idea or majority of Jews (80%) not caring for how much suffering Palestinians incur in the next phases of fighting: True they aren't oppressed to the level of a Warsaw ghetto or slaves and its silly of people to equate Israeli's to the Nazi's also. Again with how words are used it doesn't have to be the most absolute use of a word to apply as people can describe situations in metaphorical ways like when David Cameron called Gaza an open air prison in the past which isn't true in its most literal sense but partially true in the sense of freedom of movement and restrictions. If we're talking international law then definitions require more precision to be used and applied (genocide, ethnic cleansing for example). Otherwise, certain words are used as analogous to make a point. A revolt or resistance doesn't have to exclusively be only to the most extreme absolute versions of oppression and it doesn't deny the fact that some form of oppression is occurring that needs resisting and protesting to. Ethnic cleansing/displacement is still happening whether they live in a nice house or not - maybe it's worse if a family had a big house with a nice garden in West Bank which they get dispossessed of because their loss is greater - nonetheless a home is a home whether big or small. As for Gaza - they exercised their freewill and democracy which was overseen by 3rd parties and deemed a fair election but they made the mistake of using their freewill to choose the wrong party not as sympathetic to Israel/the West. When people are denied a state their denied a certain type of more civilised and accepted means of protection/deterrence - when a group doesn't have a military, navy, air force, tank units, intelligence agencies or the backing of a global superpower they need to resort to guerrilla warfare and other unsavoury uncivilised tactics for offence and defence like suicide or terrorist attacks - which they are then gaslighted as savages for and I get it, it is savage - but it doesn't detract from their cause being a just one of equal human rights, self determination and dignity even though they go about it in undignified unjust ways of which they have been left with little choice.

If we don't agree on definitions we are by definition not communicating and going in circles. Leo said a ethnic cleansing campaign has been in process over the decades not genocide, which is a more accurate term for what's currently happening. The UN definition of genocide are ''acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. Which entail the following categories: 1. Killing members of the group; 2.Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; 3.Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; 4.Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; 5.Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group'' Of course we can stretch definitions to absurd degrees to fit things in and prove our points so we need to use them with reason and not play semantics. For example, if I take point ''2. Causing bodily or mental harm'' I could stretch the definition of that to include someone calling a certain group mean names or underdeveloped which could affect their mental health which of course isn't genocide. The UN definition of ethnic cleansing is ''rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group.'' Isn't that what has been happening in the West Bank through settlements the past decades? Displacement, dispossession, expelled - different words pertaining to the same thing. If intent is there, including actions upon that intent that lead to attempts which are failed or are done in a long subtle process which go under the radar of the worlds eyes and human rights organisations - shouldn't that suffice in meeting the definition. https://www.btselem.org/communities_facing_expulsion If people measure ethnic cleansing purely by population numbers that leaves out a lot. Cleansing doesn't mean expelled from the land as in the territory or the state of Israel to another state or territory but implies any area being lived on. If 10 Palestinians are displaced from North London to South London I can't say 'but the population still has 10 Palestinian in London so they aren't being ethnically cleansed' because the definition means removing a certain group from one area to another, not one sovereign state or territory to another.

@Gennadiy1981 @Vrubel Respectfully - yes Israel did win the war. No one needs to dispute that or that Jews as a group have contributed to their own nation and globally. Rational people aren't disputing Israel's right to exist or defend itself; the concern lies in the current state of its existence and its conduct in defense. Theirs no issue in the legitimacy of its existence but in how it currently exists at the expense of another group (local inhabitants). The problem is not the cause for its existence but the manner in which it conducts itself in pursuit of that cause. Similarly, it's not the Palestinian cause (for self determination) itself that is unjust, but rather the methods employed in advancing that cause ie October 7th Another concern lies in the underlying purpose behind a defensive war and the weaponization of a opportunistic moment to sneak in a more malevolent agenda - transferring Palestinians off their land ( if the term ethnic cleansing is too inflammatory ). There exists another perspective in favour of what is in Israel's (and the Palestinians) best interest as the current path is only in the favour of a few who send others to die in order to save their own skin - politically and physically. Unfortunately the propaganda apparatus of vested interests have done a great job to block any other perspectives including the eyes of Israeli society which are reflexively bloodshot with ruthlessness vengeance - not enough to whole sale kill all Gazans, but enough to not care about not killing them indirectly.

I followed your link which seems to be your x profile - if so why post things like below. You think your supporting Israel but your only discrediting them even more by association to your genocidal memes and rhetoric. You corrupt the cause in how you conduct yourself in pursuit of that cause.

Could be the voices of their own allies getting louder in condemnation and the genocide case next week that South Africa has filed which is a stain on their reputation. Also the ample proof of self incriminating intent on display by Israeli leadership who speak candidly/arrogantly and the tik tok army who make a mockery of the devastation this war is causing - self owning themselves via a Chinese app in a Middle Eastern conflict facilitated by US arm shipments - ahh globalisation. October 7th obviously rattled Israel's psychological god complex and sense of superiority including their tech/spyware/arms industry which relies on a certain level of confidence. ''The Palestinians are human laboratory rats to the Israeli military, intelligence services and arms and technology industries. Israel’s drones, surveillance technology — including spyware, facial recognition software and biometric gathering infrastructure — along with smart fences, experimental bombs and AI-controlled machine guns, are tried out on the captive population in Gaza, often with lethal results. These weapons and technologies are then certified as “battle tested” and sold around the world.'' - Chris Hedges The reason this conflict and this thread has been popular is because of what's at stake and partial familiarity to the situation. The region its in, the players involved, the religious-colonial-racist undertones familiar to large parts of the world which are now relics of the past, and what the second order effects and ripples of this region destabilising have on a global level. If things escalate - we could be looking at global inflation through energy prices sky rocketing via oil fields being targeted and sea transit lane disruptions causing supply chain shocks - not to mention the high death toll - all this underpins the global economy which is already limping from covid with increasing inequality and all during a election year of Israels main imperial backer the US.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/france-germany-slam-far-right-ministers-calls-for-voluntary-emigration-of-gazans/amp/ French FM: “We condemn the statements of Israeli Ministers Smotrich and Ben Gvir, which call for the emigration of Gaza residents. The Israeli government does not have the right to decide where the Palestinians should live on their land.” German FM: “We reject in the strongest terms the unhelpful statements of Israeli government ministers regarding the displacement of the population of Gaza. The Palestinians should not be expelled from Gaza, nor should the area of the Strip be reduced.” @Danioover9000 Interesting clip to analyse the body language for. Regarding the Beirut assassination .

Excuse the propagandic captions, titles and links but sometimes pictures say more than words. Interesting short video : ‘But Hamas started the war on October 7th’ - meanwhile it was the deadliest year before October 7th for Palestinians in West Bank with increasing settlement expansion, restraints and no justice for settler thuggish behaviour. Why can they get away with this? IDF state backed complicity. Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Chris Hedges wrote in “A Gaza Diary” on how he had been in war zones and witnessed atrocities before but never seen soldiers barking out obscene insults to lure Palestinian children within range of their gun sights to sport shoot at for fun which he witnessed several times. Get why the world is condemning the Israeli state now? Critique and anger isn’t directed at normal Israeli’s necessarily nor is it anti-Semitic. It’s the actions of the state and the domestic propaganda that normalises such things.

It started as a settler colony that later became a nation. The first bank was called the Jewish Colonial Trust.

@Danioover9000 Makes sense. The notion that we can't reasonably guess other people's motivations because they are too obscure is unreasonable. When we observe recurring patterns of behaviour and listen to people articulate their worldviews candidly on popular media channels its easy to put things together. People will say such and such statements don't reflect the policy of the Israeli government but their leadership publicly contradict these claim with increasing boldness and arrogance.

It seems like any building can be seen as a fortification of Hamas base if there's a single Hamas member there. Al-shifa was said to have Hamas's command centre for weeks leading up to it and when they got there and destroyed it/caused death they barely found anything while the world waited for footage and proof. In fact Ehud Barak said Israel built a bunker there when they occupied Gaza to which he got backlash because he's not following the script or narrative of what will make Israel look good. The bombs being used are 2'000 lbs which are some of the largest, they explode out parts/shrapnel that damage anything within a large radius and create craters which can be seen in South Gaza in area's where Gazan's were told to go for safety - even refugee camps are being bombed. Israel's leadership and propaganda seems to have brainwashed its own society into thinking its doing the right thing the same way US elites and military interests did to its own society to secure its 'national security' in the Middle East. Maybe Israeli society is also held hostage to this leadership, and Bibi is hostage to his far right base of support including Ben Gvir and Smotrich. Bibi benefits from continuing this war for his political and legal survival. In a sense, the US and the world is hostage to him and the region/world hangs in the balance by how they go about this war to escalate it to something that pulls in bigger plays and destabilises the world. Whenever people share deluded statements from Israeli society the defence is that they are just radical, clowns or extremist and that its not reflective of the population. But what matters is the people in positions of power and leadership. When you have the mayor of Jerusalem denying Christians or functioning churches exist in Gaza or Israeli Ambassador to the UK denying a humanitarian crises exists in Gaza - this is utter denial of reality by people who actually matter - not random people on the street. This is what the world see's. The voluntary migration of Gazans is displayed as humanitarian and moral but coercing someone into doing something and ensuring they’ll die if they don’t do it is the exact opposite of what the word “voluntary” means. Israel's actions have made Gaza uninhabitable and dangerous. Violently creating conditions that endanger their lives to the point that they don't have any choice but to leave isn't voluntary - and statements and intentions shown by Israeli leaders of settling in Gaza make the case for this being a ethnic cleansing campaign pretty obviously. Its said there are 600'000 fighting age men in Gaza. Defeating Hamas would mean defeating the new military recruits Israel's actions will create from this. Including Houthi's who are giving Israel a taste of its own medicine by blockading a sea lane which shipments have to go around Africa for and to which the increased cost of that ends up at the end user of those goods in Israel which is already suffering economically. Then you have Hezbollah who Israel couldn't defeat in 2006 and who are only stronger now. That's Israel's triple threat - Hamas, Houthis, Hezbollah - HHH (WWE reference lol). Diplomatically it's already lost the world and US seems to be losing patience also but the narrative is that a military solution to a political problem makes Israel safer and is in its national interest - rather its in the interest of a few only.

US spokesperson attempting some accountability and de-escalation: The response: US did say to lower the intensity of the war by new year. IDF partially pulling out of Gaza now - maybe to be redeployed in the north after the Hamas leader drone attack in Beirut? Quite a escalation to pull Hezbollah and US into the war.

If settlers set their ass on Gaza I wonder if they’ll be scared of Hamas coming through tunnels to tickle them where the sun don’t shine 🚽 😂 Sun kissed IDF self owning themselves through tik tok. Who knew a Chinese app would undermine Israel’s image on the world stage.

Seeing your posts around I always take away some insight from them. Vrubel makes a good point above. It seems Houthi’s shouldn’t be underestimated and neither should Western power projection be overestimated. From a article : The reality of modern warfare is that small nations and non-state actors such as the Houthis can be armed with modern military weaponry which negates the military impact of multibillion-dollar investments such as the carrier battlegroup. It costs the Houthis tens of thousands of dollars to fire its drones and missiles against Israel and maritime shipping; it costs the US Navy millions of dollars to shoot them down. Moreover, it costs the US navy hundreds of millions of dollars just to keep a carrier battle group deployed and operating, while the Houthis can credibly threaten to sink a carrier using weapons that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. The final score card regarding Operation Prosperity Guardian has yet to be written. But the reality is that it will most likely not succeed in its mission of preventing Houthi attacks against either Israel or maritime shipping. This failure goes far beyond the issue of security for the Red Sea. The United States has long maintained that it could guarantee that if Iran ever sought to close the strategic Straight of Hormuz, the US Navy would be able to reopen it in a very short period. Operation Prosperity Guardian puts a lie to that claim. The fact is, the world balance of power has changed dramatically, and legacy systems like the carrier battlegroup are no longer the dominant means of power projection they once were. The US has, in effect, put all its eggs in one basket through its over-reliance upon the carrier battlegroup when it comes to force projection. The looming failure of Operation Prosperity Guardian exposes the impotence of the US when it comes to being able to accomplish its plans for regional dominance in the Persian Gulf, South Pacific, and Taiwan, and signals a new era where the appearance of an American fleet of the shores of a far way land no longer inspires fear and intimidation. For a nation like the United States, which has premised so much of its foreign and national security on the notion of strength-based deterrence, the revelation that its military power projection capabilities are more bark than bite undermines its credibility as an ally and partner in a world largely defined by conflicts created by, or on behalf of, the United States.

@Danioover9000 Nice shares - added to watch list. Cenk gets way too emotional to reasonably discuss. Anger as an emotion is a friend to the apathetic, but not a friend you bring to the table of peacemaking discussion. A temporary place to visit to get moving but not to stay in and make a home. Same way some of the pro Palestinian side on Piers Morgan don’t want to condemn Hamas publicly - it shuts of the other side being able to take them seriously. They just don’t want to be clip baited - the nuance is that Hamas in their groups are associated with the Palestinian cause and resistance so they feel they could be misrepresented to be against the cause itself. Same way people are for black lives but maybe not the BLM movement which wanted to sneak in other perverse anti-white / anarchist / defund the police memes and ideologies. Good causes are often hijacked by bad actors with bad causes. @Raze Always coming in with the links

Good discussion. I’ll just add that speaking of the good old days and past glory of empire isn’t calling for expansionism of old but reviving a sense of inspiration and fostering regionalism. Modern day empire expansion isn’t geographic but more about establishing alliances, trade and economic blocks. As the world stagnates and our institutions become burdened the call for past growth and dynamism is present - like adults wishing for their youth. Make America great again, Brexit, nationalism and the build back better theme many nations touted signal this. They aren’t necessarily calls for old colonial days.

So Israelis can blame external factors for moving right or becoming more extreme, but Palestinians can’t? For them it’s an internal issue as you’ve said - a virus, disorder or self tyranny. Some polls: https://en.idi.org.il/articles/51872

@Danioover9000 Good shares 👍🏻 From what I’ve seen the main points the proposals fail on is that they offer less than a state with full sovereignty ie demilitarised, not a fair right of return, remains of some security points within a Palestinian state, limited access to resources like water and now probably Gas off the coast of Gaza. A two state solution seems out of question now unless strong armed by the international community and the Palestinian side unwilling to concede to anything if there was one - especially after the world protests their cause which to them confirms the validity of their cause. Also from what Israels done and is currently doing only gives them more of a level of entitlement in any negotiation. A child born in Gaza in 2006 has lived through 4 conflicts in the first 16 years of their life. They clearly feel wronged by the past and in the present which is why they don’t feel they should be the ones conceding. Israeli societies become more insular and moved to the right that any centrist or leftist take seems radical including Gideon Levy. Israel is moving in a dangerous direction that people feel comfortable enough to speak how they do even on mainstream media without much backlash. Any critique gets labelled anti semitic or a puppet of Hamas/Iran - Israel calls on Guterres from UN to resign for saying October 7th didn’t happen in a vacuum for example. No context is allowed except for the context of Israel existing as it does and doing as it pleases because of the Jewish peoples suffering. Holocaust denial is atrocious, but so is using the memory of the Holocaust and past suffering to justify present day suffering of others.

I watched this a while back - both critique the other very well and pretty accurately. I wrote this elsewhere but it’s relevant: The flaw of religion and the way its practiced is that it takes myth as literal and a description of historical events (of their prophets) as a prescription for a present where it no longer works - principles that are more timeless can always be used but practices not. The flaw of secularism isn't so much in the state giving up religion to be a neutral governance system as it is the signal this sends socially to the people that religion doesn't hold value and them in turn giving it up - and not replacing that void with any structure to guide them and instead living entirely in the subjective world of moral relativism or scientific materialism with no spiritual depth. In both cases, it isn't so much the state or the religion itself that tends to be the problem but how the people use, interpret and react to them. A secularism that leads people to indulging the subjective world unhinges people from the biological reality they exist in. We can't debase ourselves from reality, the human body is a form through which the formless lives, the mould of our meatsuits allows spirit to unfold, the skeletal structure allows states of being to be. We won't be able to experience the formless without form or states of being without structure. Sure, these things have their flaws. Moulds become moldy, structures become rickety, forms become frigid, and base reality becomes a basement of dark ignorance when not used for what it is - a base to jump from to the heights of spirit. It’s funny because secularism has sort of given rise to three splintered extremes. The dogmatically religious, the scientific materialist and the subjective moral relativist where all is fair game in the law of attraction, manifestation and identifying however you so please. - The dogmatically religious = as a result of too much confusion that moral relativity can bring, the flood of information technology supplies and the excess subjectivity wokism puts on display - many people are regressively returning to religion (in its literal form) almost as mental-spiritual refugees. In a dazed world they seek refuge in that which never changes - dogmatic religion. Religion and tradition become anchors in a sea of excess chaos. - The scientific materialist = science and rationality became a new religion but one which scorched life with a materialist lens looking at the surface of life but blind to any depth to it. And because Being is depth, people who have and deny any depth to life or themselves will never be fulfilled by source. Rationality includes knowing when not to be - in matters of heart and spirit. -Woke left = they take the domain and world of spirit and subjectivity and missapply it to objective realty denying objective reality all together. Its not that a spiritual subjective world doesn't exist where probably worlds exist that defy the laws of nature we find on this planet - but they deny that they do live on this planet and under its laws. They do not honor the form in which they have incarnated. Maybe it’s not so much that religion and science are on different paths but on parallel ones trans-versing the same reality - hopefully to converge one day.

This video: Flawed logic and borderline colonial thinking to think because a group on its own can be disorderly, dehumanising and tyrannical amongst themselves that it gives the right of another group to come do the same on top of it.

Nice one straw-manning a single sentence out of paragraphs written in good faith to dismiss and deflect responding to any other points. Context matters. There’s a difference between Nazis who wanted to universally exterminate Jews from the planet and imperially dominate a entire continent and beyond, as opposed to Hamas who want to liberate Palestinians and seek justice though yes, through unjust means by deploying terrorist tactics - and who’s territorial aspirations are isolated and limited to their land and in defence of it - not expansionist oriented which infringes on other peoples rights or lands. There’s a reason the world came together to defeat the Nazi’s but in this situation the world votes against and condemns the war except very few. The fact that Israel is backed by a global power, has one of the most advanced militaries in the region and possibly nuclear yet still insists it needs to establish detterance capacity as if what it already has isn’t enough - yet it still gets resisted against and attacked should tell that force doesn’t work unless it totally subjugates, cleanses or genocides the other side which risks it losing its last remaining major ally being the US. US domestic support for Israel by the polls is positive mostly in older generations / boomers and the opposite in younger generations including Jews who are the most vocal and organised in protest. Once they come to power in the next decades Israel will find itself on shakey ground at the same time its domestic population becomes more far right due to settlers having the highest birth rate ( currently 13% of the population vs projected 30%+ by 2050 ). Israel and its biggest ally are on divergent paths in sentiment and vision for how a modern day Israel should look which if it continues on its current path will lead to it being left lonely in a neighbourhood it can’t afford to be lonely in.

That’s if we look at history, which is history. What happened after those heavy handed approaches in which atrocities happened? New institutions and standards were set to prevent them again. What would also be good to look at in history is what has the response been to bombing campaigns against terrorism. Has the war on terror for 20 years worked? A good article on that: https://caityjohnstone.medium.com/its-impossible-to-bomb-a-population-into-submission-and-obedience-ed33ec9447aa What if Britian dealt with the IRA the way Israel is dealing with Hamas today? What if this war doesn’t make Israel any safer? Most sane people want Israel to be safe alongside Palestinians and to live with dignity and recognition. Ignore the extremes on both sides calling for the end of each other - that’s unrealistic and naive. It’s exaggerated when the Palestinian side equivocates Israel’s actions to the holocaust as is the Israeli side equivocating Hamas with Nazi/ISIS. Israel cant use the horrors of the Holocaust by weaponising and abusing the sympathy and grace of the world to commit present day atrocities or deny / distort reality. Genocide isn’t a event but a process, and a subset of genocide by the UN definition is ‘Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part’. Raz Segal who is a Israeli scholar on the Holocaust and genocide calls it as such. Intent and incitement have been shown in varying statements from people who actually matter in the equation which are the prime minister, president and defence minister. I don’t even have to quote Ben Gvir, Smotrich or extremist settlers. Bibi Netenyahu : invoking Almalek Isaac Herzog : “it is a entire nation out there that is responsible” Yoav Gallant : “We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed.” A relevant post from two pages back: