Natasha Tori Maru

You reject that knowing someone takes time. How do you know when you know someone? What markers do you look for? Not feelings. Feelings aren't going to tell you anything other than your limbic brain is being triggered by endorphins. If you can list how you know - like with your example about the girl you spoke to for 5 hours. How do you know you got to depth there? Authentic depth? Knowing beyond just intuition or any feelings?

But did PUA tell you what to look for to select for a genuine authentic connection and relationship? Did it teach you how to select for that and how to narrow your search? I think the numbers thing is a red herring here.

This has nothing to do with what I raised. You are sidestepping. Do you think it is more likely you have an issue with the martyr / holier than thou inner narrative, or the myriad others who have pointed out this narrative you leak out? I can build a case if you want. It keeps coming out of you in many posts. I can go through your previous threads and quote the other users who see this in you, and there's been a few. I can go and quote every time you have reported "only I care". I don't want to trigger you into an egoic state so you don't listen, but there isn't any other way to say it. It's worth really driving into this and not just rejecting it. This narrative is actually blocking you from the deep enquiry you need to do. Notice it is a judgement. If it's a judgement - it's blocking authenticity. It's blocking a feeling you are avoiding. You can't be in judgement and feeling authentic at the same time. By knowing what you aim for. And trusting yourself you know. But you don't seem to trust yourself. You don't seem to have a process. A heuristic. Especially if you ask this question. Again I return to - do you trust yourself?

That's not the right question - the right question is HOW do you know?

Dating more than one person isnt keeping it superficial. Please I implore you! This frame is shooting you in the foot! How do you know if you want to invest in something? You start small. Small talk. Throw out some low risk pennies. Keep talking - oh hey! That person gave me a penny back... Maybe it's with investing a dollar... Let's see where that goes. Wow they gave me two bucks in return! Over time youl earn this person is really worth investing more into. Then you jump in and go exclusive. Stock market full force pink sheets investment 😁 I don't think we understand dating is the method to establish if it's worth investing. You don't just invest a million when you have no fucking idea what the hell you are investing into!

I mean... this is the main barrier to connection. It might not be that people aren't willingly showing themselves - many simply don't know WHO they are. They don't even know they aren't showing who they are - they might think they are authentic - but that person is buried deep underneath layers of shame. They feel they are being authentic, but they cannot connect with themselves, and they don't realise this - so all genuine attempts to connect authentically with another are hopeless. If you have any sort of attachment issue or codependency, you learned early on that showing who you really are in a bid for connection resulted in rejection, punishment or being ignored/discarded. So you internalize a belief "I must hide / perform as someone else to get love" or "love must be earned" or "my needs aren't important". All of these mean we end up burying who we are in an attempt to get love. It is fundamentally disconnection from the self. Other times people are so craving connection they cannot get with a person (or themselves), they end up connecting with a substance (food, drugs, alcohol) unconsciously. We can also do this with emotional highs - being addicted to our own adrenaline fueled feeling states. Triggering them in patterns. All bids to connect to something. These sorts of issues are very, very common. I think you make a martyr of yourself with this sort of narrative. And it is part of the reason others are feeling as if you are coming off as "holier than thou". “I am the one doing the difficult, honest work while everyone else isn't.” Once that narrative takes hold, it can become self-reinforcing. It puts you in a morally elevated position. It also makes genuine inquiry harder because disagreement starts to feel like evidence that others aren't willing to go where you are. And while you may profess you don't feel that way - the inner narrative that comes out signals otherwise. Even when we do not consciously think something, that does not mean we do not think thoughts that incur a belief. Do you think you have any issues with self trust, connection or attachment? Codependency? Bainstorm what connection is. What it entails. How long it takes to feel and see clearly. Markers for when it is authentic. Under what circumstances it arrives. Values and compatibility are also factors. Theres a lot to this. It's not so reductive as you attempt to advertise it "I seem to be the only one to push it." - do you know what it is you push? Real love. And that is never simple when in relative human domains. I don't think you will find a solution through more information....

@Nivsch welcome to the club 😭

All fucking "challenges"

There's always a compromise to speed.

Do you think any of your recent searches for authentic connection are linked to deconditioning around PUA paradigms? It seems you are very concerned with things taking too long. It sometimes reads like rushing. Urgency. Missing the beauty of the process and search? Just throwing ideas around.

Tide pod challenge too

@Leo Gura I one hundred percent agree with you. I am aghast in general at the state of the internet. Reboot the shit. Internet v.2

@Leo Gura @BlessedLion Whatever you do, do not read Bryan Johnson's book "Zero". I don't often feel like I waste my time, I can usually positively reframe. But I wish I could delete the space in my brain that it occupied for the days after. I think I got brain damage from it 🤣 These days I feel like AI writing a book for someone is just the new, cheap way to advertise/market

Unfortunately, for those men who need to hear, understand and know this most - it will most likely fall on deaf ears. There is too much knowing - the cup is full. Coupled with the simple fact that those who are trying to understand women are usually pursuing it through either 1) an inflexible frame (shit epistemology) or 2) with an intention purely to learn mechanism to extract what they want to fulfill their needs (bias). Understanding needs to be relational with an intention to connect in fullness. We can't understand something fully if our own bias is looking at it mechanistically to find leverage points to extract what we want. I think this mechanism search blocks relational understanding. I think we have a "knowing" problem and a "relational" problem blocking understanding. And these two issues can cross contaminate each other. And form an insidious loop - which I think we are seeing here. The knowing problem to relational failure: "I already understand women" - less curiosity - fewer genuine questions - less corrective information - existing model unchanged. The relational problem to knowing failure: "Women can be understood through mechanisms" - interaction becomes analysis - the person is treated as data - their actual subjectivity is obscured - the mechanistic model is reinforced. You basically end up with someone who has accumulated an enormous amount of knowledge about women while having relatively little understanding of women as people. And as a woman on this forum, I feel pretty powerless to affect these loops. Not with all members. Just some. I am heartbroken continually to see it is only other men that men listen to regarding their failure to understand

100% That some little neurological energetic thing can happen that we call a "thought" can trigger energetic systems in such a huge way. Thoughts are like levers for energy in the body - some may have a longer handle and require less effort. Some have a chode handle that we need to grind at to make the energy arise 😁 Yes. A big one. If I am judging someone, I cannot simultaneously be genuinely feeling the truth of my emotions. As soon as I judge someone - I'm blocking or avoiding something in my internal experience. This insight came after I was harshly judging my sister for sabotaging my work. I was fuelled with so much anger and justice. Narratives spinning for revenge. I realised that anger and indignation from judging her wasn't what I was really feeling; hurt, sadness and some shame that maybe I didn't give her the tools she needed to succeed. Judging her blocked all the truth of my experience. I was avoiding feeling sadness. It all passed like nothing at the insight. And well.... Basically I had that prickly sensation of adrenaline, energy and jubilation 😁 I couldn't stop crapping on about it to my close friends 🤣

@aurum you describe my process as well. Once I know I am decisive. When and how much is the essence of the quastion.

@Miguel1 I think it's happening from both sides. It doesn't look like a clash of character or egoic battle. More like a clash of epistemologies. I think if you asked more questions, rather than taking it as a challenge, it might help you reassess how YOU know what you know, and how you used your experience to derive conclusions (and clear up any hasty conclusions made when we think we understand what someone is saying). Sometimes others have information we can use that will help us update our models - and this information needs to be assessed, discarded, or used to update our understanding. It's just hard if there are emotions involved - and this topic is emotionally loaded to fuck because it touches on the very meaning of being human, and the human experience - connection. I admire you for putting yourself though this process. I do it with people on real life, and I don't know if you are anything like me, but it is painful. When I engage in something like this, I remind myself that every time I am judging someone else, their experience, or then - I am blocking what I genuinely feel. You might notice you can't actually be in touch with how you truly feel when you judge someone else. That helps move through the pain faster and see with clarity.

Its a baby roo!! I see them along my bike trails in the morning. Roos populate metro areas of Australia 😁

I suspect there is a genetic component - great grandmother, grandmother and mother and sister all have or had it. Caveat there as my great grandmother had all the symptoms but never a diagnosis. None of the men in my family had it.

@BlessedLion I get you. I have extremely strong intuitive feelings that are rarely wrong. I do often sit with it, and probe further, to ensure I am not being mislead by a feeling based on some existing bias. So I try to test the feeling. It usually comes up that the 6th sense is correct, though. I just feel I need to do my diligence against my twisty little mind 😁

The problem with how this dialogue is infolding is that an interpretive conclusion is reached prior to doing enough information gathering first (IE there are no genuine probing questions being asked to understand how other users arrived at their dating strategies, why it worked etc). The answers are being funnelled through a pre-existing frame and a conclusion is reached. Essentially it reads like a frame is adapted and the model is rigid and doesn't want to be updated. It's not difficult to see this play out as whenever information that might contradict the model is encountered it is discarded without much inspection (hence the lack of questioning, flat two word responses discarding users views, methods and experience). Reacting not responding. And I have a feeling this is because what is being said is misunderstood due to a lack of open curiousity around other users experience and methods (again as there are no who what why when questions, and simple "no" answers). I don't really understand the purpose of the thread myself when this is the pattern here. But I see a genuine attempt to work out a path for dating, it could simply be that there is so much emotional load behind the dilemma it's making it hard to take on alternative views that might push against an existing model. I get it as it is normal. I go through the same thing often. I don't see that the issue is that a particular conclusion was reached - it's that it was jumped to without truly understanding what was said by other users beyond a surface proposition.

... when you don't understand wtf you are doing Certainty is NOT a proxy for strength and disagreements aren't a dominance contest. It is a nice way to invalidate first person knowledge and creates a wonderful little self-sealing psychological model. Mind reading, rewarding one's own projection, discouraging honest and genuine curiosity. Bad frame control makes any sort of repair process difficult while suppressing reciprocal emotions. Causing nothing more than misunderstanding and division. The opposite of connection - what relationships are all about. It is the essence of performative masculinity. Nothing screams "low on the totem pole" more. It also selects for women who tolerate being overridden (bad boundaries and sense of self). You push way women who value maturity over hierarchy, women who can distinguish confidence from rigidity, women who don't need a man to tell them who they are, women who don't reward status games & appreciate being challenged but not overridden. Women that want to be encountered and not just emotionally dissected - women who want to be met with emotional intimacy. Women who genuinely find vulnerability more attractive that invulnerability. Good frame holding doesn't require you to actually control someone else's frame.

@Miguel1 I was just making conversation... 2/3

Also to add on to my point above - I look for integrity as it is a cleaner transmission to pick up on from a person; do their actions and behaviour match their words and intention? The signal is more obvious as it is behavioural and acted out in the real world. Authenticity and integrity are linked and operate together in my experience - authenticity is about “Am I being true to what I actually experience, value, think, and feel?”. Integrity can be viewed more like “Am I behaving consistently with what I claim to value, even when there is a direct cost to me?” Looking for integrity, which usually requires assessment over time, can be a great green flag for authenticity - not guaranteed but because they work together it's a good heuristic. I then see this as authentic integity; our inner experience, professed values, and behaviour aren't fundamentally at war with one another. Another reason why I don't rush to hasty conclusions too early. 2/3 months of dating is good for me to want to take next steps.

I think it can work both ways. I wouldn't be so quick to discard establishing a good understanding of the person through varied, shared experience. You only see who someone truly is in integrity between their behaviour/word, and that needs to be assessed over time. I haven't ever found a heuristic that can shortcut the process. I've been surprised many times! From my perspective, jumping in too soon can also be conformity. Blindly following feelings or chemistry without really attending to the above system I loosely outlined ( and at the start, the initial rush and flurry of meeting someone new can lead to fantasy and strong hormonal pushes that override sense). This is what society constantly brainwashes us is love and connection via movies, media and TV.