Natasha Tori Maru

@theleelajoker Thank you for sharing and being vulnerable! I do think it is most important, firstly, to attend to serious material considerations/limitations. It could be brain chemistry, environment, toxins, genetics - these are all concrete elements of reality that cannot be bypassed with simple mindfulness and meditation/contemplation. No one should hold themselves to a standard that is completely unrealistic for them. It ends up acting in opposition to the process: we introduce another method that we 'failed' at. And we may be compelled to judge ourselves for said failure. Adding to negative narratives that are already present. Trauma can also be a huge psychological issue with physiological effects that can prevent the more hardcore spiritual methods. Thats not to say it cannot be done. Just gotta be really grounded with expectations

@ExploringReality If you flip it, I bet you a Zen master would slap you with: 'There is no self to criticize, and no other to be criticized. Yet still words appear.' I had a think on it and to criticize you need a subject (the critic, the self), the object (what is being criticized) and a perspective. If there is no self there, no one can be selfish. So, to flip it back, if there is a self - the criticism is selfish! As always it is one of Leo's posts that isn't explicit and makes you dig for the answer... Or so I perceive !

Ah! Identifying an object does in fact, involve thought. We follow on from the 'Lamp' example: Raw perception (pre-thought): Our senses just register shapes, colours, textures, edges. The light enters our eyes and our visual cortex processes patterns. Not so much thinking here, just raw data processing Pattern recognition (fast, unconscious thought): Here our brain is comparing data against a whole host of stored templates in memory. 'Bright, shiny, button, globe...probably a lamp' This will happen so quickly we do not notice it. But! It is still a cognitive operation - a background thought. We can begin to become aware of this thought - through meditation. Conceptual identification (conscious thought): If we actually label the object 'That is a lamp', or, if we distinguish it from similar things 'Not a ceiling light' that is where the thought proper kicks in - language, concepts, memory being applied. Identifying is the bridge between perception and thought. The raw experience does not need thought, but as soon as you classify it or label it, thought is at play. You can try this with meditation by staring at an object until you absolutely have no idea what you are looking at any longer. It definitely seems you have caught the narrative overlay as a thought (or should we say, a thinking) identified 'I need a new lamp' Incidentally - I actually do need a new lamp WTF @Carl-Richard

There is awareness of 'light' Then a perception/interpretation/concept thought 'the light is on' In my experience - these 2 can be seperated. Wittled down to just 'awareness of light' You could apply this to the body part also

I like this! There is a pervasive dialogue that thoughts 'befall us' - oh! Woe is me, the thoughts come for me and befall me! And while I do understand neural pathways that are activated can reinforce these thoughts to make them feel 'default' - they are indeed just bad habits. The thoughts are repeated and habitual to the extent they are the least effortful way of existing. These thoughts are what I deem, in myself, reflex thoughts. Changing the patterns of thought requires energy, conscious energy. And deliberately placing awareness on them is the only way to begin the process of unravelling. Changing the reflexive thought pattern to another type, through repetition. Changing bad-habit thoughts is just the same as changing a bad habit in reality: keep putting energy into changing the behaviour 'make the bed when I am finished with sleep' until it becomes the new default. Once it is ingrained in the nervous system, it just happens with no effort. For a while, forcing ourselves to make the bed requires huge mindfulness and effort: until it becomes a reflex of the neural pathways. Repeat. Practice makes perfect. Once it is the new reflex, it just happens. The bed gets made. The body just does it. You are in the moment and present, and you trust the bed will get made, at the time it should be made, just as it should. You don't even remember making the bed, it is now part of the brains autopilot. Same with thoughts. External reality mirrors internal. Anyway... Just elaborating on what has been my process for anyone who stumbles with this. Practice. Meditate to become aware of the thoughts as first step. Put effort to change your thoughts and your brain will rewire to follow. If individuals have issue with this, and they have no actual physiological inhibitors (IE a real chemical issue in the brain they have a proper medical insight into, or physical difference) I implore you to meditate and become aware of the nature of your thoughts. They never come out of no where. We (so to speak hehe) do them.

I was keen to hear the counters to the above actually! Fizzling out

Are we considering subtext and how it comes into play with this definition? Context = environment that gives shape 'background that frames the foreground' Subtext = the hidden or implied meaning beneath the surface Maybe pulling subtext out in a defined way will refine where this is going. It seems to me to be present most of the time, but it is not always relevant. Then again, maybe this is going to muddy the water (not that it could get any worse, this thread is like walking through molasses)

Appreciate this!

Enjoy the verbal jousting, Leo's posts/blog (even when I do not agree.. ) And probably most of all, I like it as a testbed for ideas and contemplations. Certain users have unusual and uncommon ways of being and viewing things. It is a very good way to assess if I am steeped in some delusion or presenting a logical fallacy. I don't use it for serious spiritual work as I do that on my own. You tend to find users LEGIT COME FOR YOU with pitchforks when you are biased out the arsehole - and not just me - anyone will cop it. In addition - I like being emotionally triggered here - because it forces me to probe more inside for areas of self and attachment. ' Oh! A feeling coming up? There's some more self you little turd '

Interesting. I tend to think humans are always seeking the sublime. There is always something within humans reaching for it - spiritual seekers reach for the sublime. If it is not through spirituality, it is through drugs, love, thrills, altered states, children, sex - always trying to reach it, even if subconsciously. I think spiritual seekers are keenly aware of their appetite for the sublime in ways unconscious humans are not. I digress...

E - X - A - C - T - L Y One hundred percent This applies to so much of life. Bias. Even when having a discussion with someone - they aren't truly listening to the information presented. Most of the time they are listening for the parts that will confirm what they already know, or that conform to what they believe. Clients I work with walk away with a completely different understanding of what was discussed, as an example. It is rare that someone can hold empty space for an idea or experience free of context that may contradict their views. We need to approach everything from a deep place of not-knowing. Openness and curiosity. Clarity. Ignorance flows from certainty. Great post - appreciated!

@UnbornTao Was going to link this myself but you beat me to it - interested in the counter argument

@AudibleLocket Very, very difficult and heart-wrenching situation - my compassion <3 Been on both sides. Also have gone on a 'break' to reassess. This never worked for me. I should have just cut it clean off as it prolonged the pain, anguish and grieving process. When a relationship is ending, or you are considering ending it, it is literally as if something in your reality is dying. What you had may end - that is a death of your existence as you know it, so it does feel like your guts have been ripped out of you. One really important factor in my opinion - what is she actively doing to take responsibility for her pathology? Being brutally honest - it is just not enough to use pathology, anxiety, depression etc as an excuse for any sort of poor behavior. This can include not living up to responsibilities and commitments, or treatment of you directly. It sounds like she is on the right track - meds - but medication is NOT a magic bullet that fixes shit, or enables one to not work hard in therapy and creating a structure to support you while you recover. Serious mental health issues require commitment to overcome. Most relationships can move through this, but your partner needs to take full responsibility. Make no mistake - I am not saying anything is her fault - it is not her fault at all. But it is her responsibility to herself, to you, and to the relationship to be doing everything she can do get better. It sounds like enrolling in another course is the wrong move - that energy needs to go back to her rehabilitation. If she cannot hold down a job, how will she be able to handle college? That being said - I do not know the full circumstances around this, and the job loss may be due to things not connected to depression. In addition, people with depression often need many avenues for support. It does both of you no good if she relies on you exclusively for this. Fundamentally, is sounds like you are growing and she is stuck. The above question is the one to think on. If she is really going hard at self-healing it will be worth sticking around to assist her if you feel there is a lot to salvage - do you think you see this commitment from her? I write this having been through some serious mental health issues myself - being in her position directly. I did not take responsibility for my healing - and I hurt all those around me for a long time.

@Schizophonia Hmmm you strike me as quite aware and interoceptive. I try to give my perspective and advice knowing I have a different way of doing things. My personal bias is toward experiential work and testing for real feedback in concrete reality, as a way to confirm insights I have had. I think for your unique brand of human - your current attention is on interception and pattern recognition. Concepts, frames, ideas. If I were in your direct shoes I would be attempting to empty this out and really jump into society, work, and interaction with others. I would be testing out these insights every day in contrast to my direct experience. Obviously I have some views and frames on anima/animus and integration - but I feel you have a nice little addiction to concepts you are feeding. So my advice might be to just strike out into the world with as much authenticity and lowered fear as possible. You need to experience the direct friction that arises with in social domains - because that friction will be the area you need to investigate to integrate any shadow you currently feel is coming from you. Pay attention to when you are feeling something intensely in a situation - there is self and ego there, attachments, shadows. I could be wrong - maybe you do get into societal domains for hours every day. I do very much approach the world having loved and immersed myself in concepts and philosophy. But I had to throw it all away and jump without fear. Sort of like learning the system, then going out and checking reality so you can get direct feedback - and then with that wisdom knowing exactly what rules can be bent or broken with little consequence... Anyway not sure where I am going with the above - shooting in the dark really I would start with throwing away all beliefs - go out in a state of not knowing - because those beliefs you have are like a cataract over reality. They will be completely inhibiting you from seeing the true message needed to be received. Also - are you really clear on what you are seeking/trying to achieve at this present moment? If you are unclear about what experience you are chasing - you hamstring yourself

Holy crap - the following is no lie ( @Carl-Richard @Carl-Richard @Carl-Richard ) There is a small bench along the river I walk along each morning. I do a 15 minute moment of focused presence (on my experience: feeling, sensation, sound, light and colour) here, each morning, before the insanity of engaging in society takes over. Today something cold and wet flung out at me (it is very windy in Melbourne, Australia at the moment) Initially I didn't register anything, but then a strange, moving, cold and clammy wiggly sensation was perceived near my neck. It was this bastard (below) - so I actually came directly to this thread to post: 'I sat on a bench on a nondescript day, and my experience was one of wild frogs being flung at me while meditating, under gumtrees by the river ' ... only to find a frog already waiting for me!!!

Where tf is this self being annihilated? You cannot annihilate shit that doesn't exist. /end thread

Most I found was pirated and on Napster/ LimeWire - that was if you wanted a soft copy locally stored But there were small amounts of streamable videos and music / audio you had to wait to load 😭 The worst was when you went to a website and it had images/banners all over it - rip cup of tea return in 5 minutes 😅

@Eskilon My earlier posts rap a bit more - unfulsafiable, philosophical dead end and... Look at the current shitfight that happens with this topic. I strategically tap out because it's a waste of time. It's just my personal preference at play.

@UnbornTao Agree, good insights! I tend to think with subjects such as these - whatever side the user appreciates is based on how this makes them feel. This also explains the, ah, fervor, expressed, when engaged in verbal jousting

I feel the same because it is unfalsifiable I think people get fixated on it because of implications

@Leo Gura To kick this example out to reality - triangles are also the most structurally sound shape in construction & engineering 🙃

@Inliytened1 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂💀 I could be jabbering to myself right now - lucky I have the dog to pretend like I am not just talking to myself. Nice little delusion

This is a hard issue to have. Might be difficult to realise but your feelings are being generated by the future and imagined narratives that play out when experiencing limerence. These aren't real. Try to really think about what you KNOW about this person. What you have seen and experienced with them that tell you about their morals, values - who they are and how they react to experience in the moment. Forget what they tell you - most especially text. Texting is really insidious, it can give you a false sense of intimacy where there really is none. It gives people time to craft a response. It gives them control over how they are perceived, rather than showing you the truth of the person. Be careful not to fall in love with someone's potential - and remember, when someone does something, they rarely do it once. So any behaviour that you are questioning will likely show up again. Usually limerence goes back to attachment issues. And it is difficult to deal with as you pedestalize the other and sweep their negative qualties under the rug.

I just find it unfalsifiable even if logical - its a dead end to me

@Carl-Richard That one was too easy with my reference - just got home from the walk Yes, turds were had: