Karmadhi

@Leo Gura The thing is that USA did not kill themselves 100-500k Iraqis Most of the deaths came from the instability that came due to Sadam being overthrown In Gaza we have up to 70.000 people being killed by Israel, 70-80% of them being civilians There is a big difference between people being killed explicitally by an invading army in sensless attacks compared to dying as a result of a chain reaction caused by bad planning. USA thought Iraqi would become an ally and a democracy, they did not oversee the chaos that erupted later. And that chaos lead to most deaths It is like me shooting 10 people in the head deliberatily versus me clicking a button with the aim to kill 1 and then 50 others die which i did not even intend nor foresee Totally different moral situations Also, USA did not invade Iraq with the desire to do ethnic cleansing or to make Iraq unlivable They did not impose a total blockage, starving civilians and not allow anesthisa to reach hospitals What Israel is doing is a totally different level of evil I wonder how mentally deranged someone can be not to allow anesthisia to enter a besiged territory knowing full went hundreds of kids every day have to amputate limbs or deal with burns You admit Israel is doing ethnic cleansing. Well ethnic cleansing is one of the most barbaric things a country can do, second only to downright genocide. It does not happen frequently unlike rape, shootings of civilians or bombing apartments which happen in every war. It is something else. Most wars do not have ethnic cleansing. Lastly, I honestly am not writting here to say Hamas is better or worse or as bad as other entities. They are definetly way worse for their citizens than Israel is for their own citizens. 100% agreement here. Maybe they are 100% genocidal as well. Probably are. I am not as informed about Hamas to be honest. The point I am trying to make is that Israel is atrocious I only mentioned Hamas because they are always compared here with Israel which I think is a red hairing

To be honest I hear that sometimes but I have not seen USA do anything near this inhumane as a response to 9/11 And I am super critical of the USA in general when it comes to these things. The issue is not invading an entity is HOW you do it For example here we can see the civilian casualties are what Israel kills in 3 days in Gaza, and this is USA after just being attacked They show more restraint Even Iraq and Afghanistan together had less than 10.000 civilian deaths together if we only count the invasion losses In Gaza it is 50.000 at this point Not to count USA did not create a man made famine, nor destroy all means of life If you follow the war on Gaza it is clear as day that Israel goal is to make Gaza unlivable, cause as much suffering as possible so people will leave the land and not come back And I do not recall USA doing textbook ethnic cleansing The fact that Israeli leaders have arrest warrants for crimes against humanity shows you how low they have sunk as a state I really doubt countries like UK, France, Belgium or even USA (which has a precendent) would react like Israel did They had a de facto apartheid system before and commited countless massacres October 7th just sent them into extermination mode from war crime mode They were never even a remotly "moral army" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War This 2014 situation alone I think gave Gazans enough hate fuel to carry out October 7th which still killed 3 times less civilians than the 2014 Israeli bombings in Gaza. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Afghanistan

Also Hamas did revenge after years of Israeli brutal occupation and domination Yes, in war it happens that an invading army goes to a town and kills everyone they can find It happens in war An example of America doing it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre What happened in October was no question horrible but it also tends to happen in every war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre Another example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre (this one was backed by Israel by the way) Going into a town and shooting everyone there and even raping some of the inhabitants is unfortunately still a very common practice even these days. It has basically happened in every war. Bosnian war, Kosovo war, Syrian war, Chechen war, Ukraine war, Vietnam war, Korean war, Iraq war, Algerian war etc. All of these wars have well documented cases of such events. Which would implicate the Serbian Army, USA Army, Russian Army, French Army, Syrian Army, Korean Army, North Vietnamese Army etc etc I dont get why Hamas gets singled out about that like they did something totally unique. At first there were certain things that indeed made it seem specifically brutal like babies in ovens, babies beheaded, kids tied to chains and burned alive etc (I found it on wikipedia articles) but they were all disproven. Or is your argument that Hamas would do that until the end of time instead of specific incidents like the ones i wrote above were? Meaning it would be "1 out of 100000000" for them. And its not "sometimes", its every day at this point for the IDF. You are basically describing pre October 7 Israel pretty well, Israel at the moment is a totally different beast

Keep in mind Israel is far stronger than Hamas and does not need to nuke them to dominate them. If Hamas was on par with Israel and posed a serious existencial threat like Israel poses to Gaza I doubt Israel would not use their nuclear weapons It is easy to show some restraint when you can dominate another army with conventional ways Which is why Russia has not yet nuked Ukraine for example but was considering it when Ukraine seemed to gain momentum in late 2022 Also since you say Israel does not target civilians and does not blow up airports They blow up hospitals, refugee cams and schools full of civilian and kids Either you are in denial or not fully informed of the number of massacres and atrocities they have commited which make October 7th look like Disney land. Israel war on Gaza has killed more civilians than all terrorist attacks in the world put together. May I remind you of the pager attacks on Lebanon which you called "terrorism" on this forum? Or did you forget about that? That one was not even that deadly in terms of civilian casualities yet you called it terrorism. Blowing up a refugee camp and killing 100 civilians with 1 strike is not any better than hijacking a plane and blowing it up And Israel has been doing that almost daily now Oh yes, also shooting at civilians lined up for aid So yeah, maybe Israel is not suicidal like Hamas but they are still the most inhumane proper well funded military in the world if we avoid pseudo militaries like Hamas, ISIS etc Saying "Hams is worse" is a pretty low bar to hold to be honest Its like saying "They re not as bad as Nazis" Even Russia is not as inhumane at this point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flour_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_October_2023_Jabalia_refugee_camp_airstrike

Again Leo that is not the point of the thread. I dont know why you always go back into how bad Hamas is Point is that Israel also does not clear the moral development threashold of a "moral country" worthy of support, alliance and praise That is the point Just because Hamas is worse does not mean that Israel clears the threashold of a country worth supporting This is not a zero sum game, you can condemn both, sanction both and cut ties with both. Just because you sanction Israel does not mean you support Hamas. That is Israel bullshit propaganda that calls anyone that go against them as aider of Hamas. And unlike certain countries Israel does not have key natural resources so they can cut ties with them without much issue. It is not like Russia, Iran or Saudi where cutting ties has serious issues due to them having tons of necessary natural resources and therefore you need to be careful about how you deal with them. Why has not Germany, France, UK and USA cut ties with Israel for them doing ethnic cleansing is the point And also Israel at this point is going beyond ethnic cleansing to genocide territories with their blocade of aid. Serious discussions are going on about it. When Serbia tried to do something similar in Kosovo during the Kosovo war NATO intervened and bombed the hell out of Serbia for them to stop. "NATO's intervention was prompted by Yugoslavia's bloodshed and ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians, which drove the Albanians into neighbouring countries and had the potential to destabilize the region. Yugoslavia's actions had already provoked condemnation by international organisations and agencies such as the UN, NATO, and various INGOs.[31][32] Yugoslavia's refusal to sign the Rambouillet Accords was initially offered as justification for NATO's use of force.[33] Because Russia and China could use their veto within the Security Council to not authorize an external intervention,[34] NATO launched its campaign without the UN's approval, stating that it was inter alia a humanitarian intervention.[35] The UN Charter prohibits the use of force except in the case of a decision by the Security Council under Article 42, under Article 51 or under Article 53.[36] Three days after the commencement of hostilities, on 26 March 1999, the Security Council rejected the demand of Russia, Belarus and India for the cessation of the use of force against Yugoslavia.[37]" See the contrast Here they do not even sanction, not even talking about bombing. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/ https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/11/un-special-committee-finds-israels-warfare-methods-gaza-consistent-genocide https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-extermination-acts-genocide-gaza

By the West i mean the European Union (especially France and Germany which are the two most important actors in it), UK and USA The only big country government that has openly tried to take concrete actions is Spain and Ireland (they are smaller country but still) Rest are either indifferent or downright support it But doesnt USA get targeted by terrorists BECAUSE it supports Israel so much? If USA cut ties with Israel they would not even need to share intel because USA would stop being targeted so much by terrorists. Or is it too late for that?

Because the West calls Israel a moral army and country, supports it yet Israel does ethnic cleansing A developed moral country and army does not resort to such tactics The West says they respect international law and human rights yet they reward a country that does one of the most disgusting crimes that exists That is the problem Until the West sanctions and cuts ties with Israel, the point of the thread remains Why is it so hard to cut ties with a country that is doing such horrible crimes? What am i missing? This thread is not about Hamas, it is about Western support for Israel despite its horrible actions.

The whole point of the thread Leo is that the West sees Israel as a moral entity not engaged in ethnic cleansing but simply defending themselves. By what you write here you basically say Zionists want to do ethnic cleansing yet the West calls Israel a moral country, supports it and arms it. That is why we say humanity has failed in Gaza Because they are on the side of a bully. If Hamas is also awful, fine, then dont help either. Why is Hamas declared a terrorist organiztion and the IDF is not? If both sides want to do ethnic cleansing as you say Hamas is not supported yet Israel is. Where are the sanctions for Israel? Where is the cutting of relations with Israel? As far as i know ethnic cleansing is illegal and looked down upon as a wrong act in the side of 99% of the population in the West.

The sad truth is that Russia is an adversary to the West and Israel is an ally Therefore when Russia does something bad it will magnified a lot and when Israel does something bad it will be diminished That is how biases work The West has an insane pro Israel anti Russian bias due to historical alliances and economic interests

So you finally agree to both sides being equally horrible Before you made it clear that Hamas was worse

Sad how low Israeli politicans have fallen They dont even seem like a democracy anymore Say one thing against the narrative and you get forcefully kicked out

Why do people do that? They see them all as the enemy or Israelis? I think many were not Israelis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-X_9cLDaDY It aint a conspiracy Suprisingly the only prominent British politican who actually had a fair stance on this conflict, had the whole media against him, was framed wrongly and eventually left the party. His successor (Starmer) is 180 degrees different on this matter. These are 2 of many examples.

Alright

Imagine you were just a peaceful civilian living in Ukraine 3 years ago. You would hate the Ukranian government. Now matter how bad things were in Ukraine under Russian influence, they are way worse now. It is a mistake to provoke a more powerful and shameless opponent because they will take it out on your people. Thats what Russia did. Fair or unfair, it is how psychology and politics work. The bottom line is that when you are weak you are not in a position to dictate term and suicide alliances will not make your country better off. See how easy I can flip the script It is an analogy to Ukraine for going against Russia and siding with its enemies because they wanted to improve the living conditions for their own. Russia would have never attacked if Maidan didnt happen and they kept Yanakovic or someone similar to him. Although I support Ukraine (and Palestine too), I think that whole thing was a disaster and they would have been better off becoming another pro Russian state like Belarus, Kazakstan or Mongolia.

I am personally for two states with 1968 borders. Also to kick out all the illegal settlers and ideally some reparations for all the damage and human suffering. But a proper two state, no shady or sneaky deals like in the Oslo accords. Nor the "We gave Gaza a state in 2005" bullshit. And make sure that the state at first is aided by the Arabs so no Hamas 2.0 hijacks it. Most Arab countries dont support Hamas type groups so they can oversee that the state does not go towards radicalism. I think that would solve this issue for good

Sorry Leo but the world has put 0 pressure on Israel to stop their insane amount of international law violations The sad truth is that Israelis have an unproportionate amount of influence on the world medias, banks and governments which basically keep it immune to criticism other countries would have. They need to do 10x the carnage Russia does before they even get a basic condemntation, yet alone actual consequences The fundamental problem is Israeli's and Zionists interest groups hijacking most of the global power structures. Just see how powerful AIPAC is in USA if you want concerete proof. Obama has admitted he was heavily supressed in his policies towards the conflict because of the political cost it had. And Obama seemed relatively pro Palestine (unlike Biden for example). Murdoch the biggest media oligarch is a devoted Zionists Most of Blackrock owners too The list goes on Blaming all this inhuman indifference to 1 terrorist attack is not looking the situation seriously enough.

I have been following this war for a while now, and I feel like at this point Ukraine 's best option is to give in to Russia demands and make a permanent truce By that I mean, allow Russia to annex Crimea and the 4 oblasts they occupy forever, basically give them to Russia In return, they should get a good security guarantee from the West, ensuring that Russia will not invade them again to get more land (very crucial!) In return, Russia's sanctions will be lifted and Europe will return to how it was before the war I know it is not nice, but I feel like Ukraine can either do this or just continue fighting, loosing more land and more people With Trump in the White House I do not see Ukraine getting enough aid to kick Russians out and take back any of their territory They were struggling to stagnate with all Biden's help, I cannot imagine them even stagnating with the reduced Trump's aid and support Not to mention their over growing manpower issue Isnt it better to loose 20% of your land and be able to rebuild while your youth is still alive and able to work? I mean Ukraine is huge, they will be fine even if they loose some land Or is that specific land overly important that it is worth all this hassle? Not to mention most of it is Russian speaking and ethnic Russians so I wonder if those people even see themselves as proper Ukranians

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/trump-cuts-ties-with-netanyahu-over-manipulation-concerns-report/3561726

How come Isarelis seem so ridiciously over concerned about 50 or so Israelis yet seem totally indifferent to tens of thousands of civilians killed in Gaza Even those that are mature enough to call them actual civilians (not counting the lunatics that say that everyone in Gaza is guilty) I find it quite staggering Of course you prioritze your own but they do not seem to care at all!!! For example a statement like "Let us end the war so both our hostages can go home and Gazan civilians can stop suffering from the war", a neutral comment like this. Even if they think all the civilian deaths are on Hamas, that statement would seem sensible to me. When USA bombed Hiroshima for example they said that they did this to save both American and Japnese lives (way more would have died from the invasion according to what they said) So even then, they had some sort of basic care for the civilians of their enemy And USA back then was far from being soft Could you explain please? I am very curious

Hello I have noticed that many peopel are pretty clear about Iran not getting nuclear weapons. Normally I can agree that the less nuclear armed states the better because they are very dangerous and destructive However, they do not say anything about Israel having ILLEGALLY nuclear weapons and never even admitting to having them I understand the logic that (they are our allies meanwhile Iran is our enemy) but I am talking purely from an objective unbiased perspective.

Which one are you?

Just to be clear, I totally understand why Iran having a nuke is a bad idea Issue I have is why Israel can have a nuke while Iran cannot$ You can argue that Israel has bombed its neighbors far more than Iran has, has expanded (Lebanon and Syria which are soverign countries) and does have a religious component to its whole society structure (especially these days with the far right being in power). So, I do not think Iran would be much less mature about its nuke than Israel has been. Keep in mind Iran is an old civilization with a long history of statehood. They are not some African tribe.

Most of the world did not support Nazi Germany but was disturbed by it. The only ones who did were countries with the same ideology like Italy or Spain. Meanwhile most of the "Western developed countries" including green countries support Zionism. How come? How does Zionism fuel the survival agendas of Orange/Green countries? Look how France, Germany, UK, Netherlands etc which are Orange/Green countries kiss the ass of Israel to the point where some of them said they will not arrest Bibi from the ICC warrant if he goes to those places although they are signatory to the ICC (outragous violation of international law).

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about Russia attacking its neighbors like Ukraine and Georgia in the past and the argument he gave me was: "As long as you do not mess with Russia nothing happens. You only get attacked when you are unfriendly to Russia. The solution is easy, be nice and diplomatic to them". How would your respond to this?