Karmadhi

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/rebuilding-bombed-gaza-homes-may-take-80-years-un-says-2024-05-02/

Sure, this is the most recent I could find. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/7/israels-war-on-gaza-six-relentless-months-of-death-and-destruction It says 62% of all buildings in Gaza have been damaged or destroyed or 290.000 housing units leaving more than a million people homeless. Eight of every 10 schools in Gaza are damaged or destroyed, according to UNICEF. As many as 625,000 students have no access to education. All hospitals have suffered critical damage, with only 10 out of 36 able to function partially but they are increasingly overburdened. Note, this is from April 7th, so almost 2 months ago. Considering that this was before Rafah which now is being daily bombed the current values are higher. Also I saw they are bombing the north again due to Hamas regrouping there.

It is not exaggerating when you have 70%+ of all buildings in Gaza destroyed (and the war is not done). I am not saying they do it in 1 night, they do it slowly over time but in the end everything is gone. It is like a death by 1000 small cuts, it adds up on time. If you see the ruins of Gaza it does not look much different from cities like Dresden. I never claimed that they do it in 1 single night, but they are indeed bombing everything at Gaza gradually over time. 1 block today, 1 block tomorrow, 1 school today, 1 university the next week. All universities in Gaza are destroyed, almost all the schools, most hospitals have been bombed. This is what I meant.

Me too, especially from the EU

@Hatfort Beautifully said man. You do not need to go further than to hear the genocidal statements made by many high ranking Israeli politicians to see what is going on there.

Bombing everything on sight is not much different than shooting everything on sight. I do agree that Hamas is stage Red mostly but from what I have seen their actions looked more like a stage blue thing. Israel tried to portray them as Stage Red to gain sympathy but now a lot of the things they said have either been debunked or simply lacked evidence. Some things stage Red does is: Kill someone by beheading (no footage of someone actually being beheaded alive), Tie people and burn them alive (No footage of that either even though Israel claimed it happened) etc. I have seen the footage that is out there and what I basically saw is their militants going in and shooting everyone they saw on sight. That is basically a Nazi SS approach. Stage Red and what Israel tried to portray is a Mongolian/Viking approach. There is no footage to back that up. It is indeed a war crime and should be condemened, I am not denying it. But it is not a Stage Red type of approach. Stage Red would have released footage of crucified people, people being paraded without heads or people being trampled by cars etc. This is how stage Red acts. For EG Isis showed live beheadings and showed people being excecuted by being put in a cage and burned alive. I did not see any footage like this. The worst thing I saw is a German Jewish girl being paraded in Gaza, her body seemed intact but it was clear she was killed by the point she was being paraded. That is a Stage Red type of action. Regarding rape, I am sad to say it basically happens in every war. US troops did it, Russians do it, Israelis do it (Plenty of reports of rape in Gaza and even before in Israeli prisons), so it is still a common thing. Israel is not above Hamas when it comes to rape. I can send plenty of sources to back that up. However, Hamas did seem to have done rape too. Now, if you have seen footage or concrete proof that shows more than what I said, I am very open to seeing it and changing what I wrote here.

There is a case on the interntional criminal court citing most of this stuff. That is enough proof to at least consider it. What proof do you have for Hamas beheading babies? If you want to play the source game, two can play at that.

I saw the video this morning, it is horrible. The baby was beheaded from the blast and his body was totally burned. Horror movie shit.

Leo this is not the first time this stuff happens. There are hundreds of such incidents to the point where it becomes clear that it is a system issue, not just a mistake. You cannot have 15.000 kids only be mistakes. If this was an isolated event it would be totally another story. Israel has one of the most modern armies, tons of aid, very educated and intelligent population. Why is their army not professional? For Osama I would not but for someone like Hitler I might consider. Again, this has nothing to do with the current situation. Israel can send elite special forces there to take care of it if they want. Or just wait for another opportunity when the guy is not in a dense area like this. Rarely you get the "only way" situations in real life. Lastly since you brought up the Gaza density. PRECISELY because it is so dense, bombing it like hell is a bad idea. And it does not even work. Hamas knew this would happen so they built tons of deep tunnels and therefore they are safe inside them. In 7 months, Israeli highest estimate is that around 20% of Hamas has been killed. If they were actually serious they would have sent some elite units in the tunnels to drag them out. But of course they are cowards and prefer to bomb kids and just starve everyone.

Hamas also said it was not their aim to kill civilians on October 7th. Every leader will say that, it is normal. If you trust Bibi might as well trust this guy too. Bottom line is that you see people's actions not words. 15.000 kids dead is action.

I have not seen this type of horrible footage nor such a high death toll in such a short time. Neither a famine. US has indeed supported the Saudi made famine in Yemen but did not itself cause it. Even here they are pushing for more aid to come in. Israel is the one being defiant. United States invasion of Afghanistan - Wikipedia This is the US direct response to 9/11. Around 2000 civilians dead, 15 times less than here. War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) - Wikipedia This is the whole war which lasted 20 years. In 7 months in Gaza we have close to 30.000 civilians dead, here in 20 years we have 46.000 from ALL sides. You cannot compare. And US is not the most angelic person anyway. Of course not. Especially if they were minors. If they were adults and directly aided him then they are legit targets. If they were 8 year old boys then it is horrible since they are innocent. But I saw they were adults so it is not the same as killing a baby. Issue here is scale. Israel killed close to 80 people to take out 1 senior Hamas guy in November. Here they killed more than 40 to take out 2 Hamas guys. The ratios are crazy. And these are not even the top top Hamas people. Imagine if Hamas had 1 supreme leader like Osama was. They would not hestitate to kill 1000 civilians to get him. Meanwhile US killed around 5 civilians to get Osama. Israel has been reported to permit up to 20 civilians being killed to take out 1 standard Hamas operator. For senior members, up to 100 civilians were ok to be killed with him. Totally different ball game.

Just like Israelis describe Palestinians being "terrorists that engage in violence" are the majority, but the reverse is true.

I am not attacking him personally. I do not know this guy. I am asking you, since he is there what does he think about the stuff I mentioned above? Since he might be surrounded by the people that are doing those horrible stuff. Would be interesting to see the POV of someone in there from the IDF side. If he is a good person, then that makes it even more interesting.

In which part of Gaza? What has he said about Hamas regrouping and attacking in the North, even though it was considered "cleared". Also, what does he say about the countless videos online showing IDF people mocking the destruction in Gaza

We are not saying that it is genocide because of that. Israel whole premise was that Hamas "burned and beheaded babies" but never actually showed any footage of it. Meanwhile here we are all seeing live footage of literally the same thing Hamas allegedly died. From what I researched there was 1 baby in total that died on the attacks meanwhile in just this attacked more than 1 baby died. So it is really ironic that Israel is doing the same thing that it blasted Hamas for doing and not showing any evidence to back it up. They have already showed plenty of intention with their speeches which is why there is an ICJ and ICC case to begin with. I did not see US carpet bomb the whole town where Osama has hiding. They launched a very precise military operation with soldiers that shot him personally. Israel could have done the same here. Why didnt they? You should tell this to Israelis that justify 15.000 childreen killed because of imaginary babies beheaded. Fundamentally the ICJ openly stated that this assault should stop 2 days ago and now Israel not only does not back off, but does this. It is a legit war crime. Israel does recognize the ICJ authority (unlike the ICC), and therefore every single civilian death on Rafah from now is a legit war crime. Not "collateral damage", when the whole offensive has been deemed illegal from a body that Israel does recognize. Not much different from what Putin is doing from a legal pov (they also told Putin Russia should stop the war in Ukraine and he kept going despite).

What do they gain from Israel? You said "billions of weapons sold". So does Ukraine, so does Saudi. I do not see this type of support for them. USA used to be quite antisemetic until the end of the second world war (they did not allow many Nazis to be trialed for war crimes). What changed so much?

Not really, some of EU which would be the pinnacle of democracy and respect of law (Scandinavia for example) have openly said Israel is doing war crimes. USA is not objective here, neither is UK. What baffles me is that they are willing to destroy their interntional reputation for such a small country. I live in Europe and i have read about how Israeli treats Palestinians. It is out of the world for us Europeans to even do 1/10 of the devilry that Israel does. There is no apartheid in Europe. Josep Borrell: EU must choose between rule of law and Israel | DW News (youtube.com) Common values? Apartheid, starvation of civilians, racism, carpet bombing or genocidal statements are not "European values". Neither is shutting down media (like they did with Al Jazera) nor not allowing millions of the Palestinians in the West Bank to vote. Give me a break...

What disturbes me more than this is the crazy support the West, especially US/UK is giving Israel. US officials legit threanted the ICC prosecutor and his family. Threatening a judge is a criminal act in most countries. You cannot really expect Israel to stop being devils when this threatens their survival, but you can expect US and UK to put them in their place. You can argue about AIPAC but fundamentally Israel is US pawn, not the other way around. Israel cannot survive without US, US will be fine without Israel, especially now that most Arab countries are on good terms with the US. Same logic with the UK. It is more realistic for US/UK to tell Israel "if you do not stop this we will abandon you" then Bibi waking up one day and saying "We Israelis are also responsible for the October attacks". What do you think? I feel like the West can easily coerce Israel to recognize Palestine and stop the war (via sanctions and cutting of ties).

Economically yes, since EU is very rich and tempting. But culturally they are quite a blue society with blue values. I see them as a poorer Hungary or Poland. Tons of racism and anti LGBT etc. And its economy got totally destroyed by the West. A big reason Putin is against the West is that. You can see their gdp go down a lot during those years and then once Putin comes to power it starts growing a lot. Russia could have indeed been a western ally but the west wanted to milk it instead. Heck, Putin even tried to join NATO in the beginning but once he saw NATO was an US monopoly to do what US wants, he backed down. Sad chance to form a Russian Western alliance wasted. Totally agreed. I think the main point here is how Western minded Ukraine was BEFORE the war. Now, I do not deny they are basically anti Russian. But before the war, I do not think they were much different in terms of values. But that is my opinion, I may be wrong. I am open to other sources as long as they are not from the parties directly involved which in this case is Ukraine or Russia. Lastly, i would like your explanation about something, off topic. I heard from many people I know that Ukranians in the West tend to be a bit anti Russian. They have been historically. They attribute it especially to the Soviet made famine in the 1930s. Ok, I get that. But how come that they are not much anti German, considering the Nazis killed more people than the Soviet famine did. If Ukraine wants to have dislikes for countries based on historical injustices how come Germany gets a free pass? Would like your opinion on it.

@Hatfort It baffles me how Europeans claim a land that is historically Arab. No issue with Arab Jews, but those European Jews that came to Israel were totally out of place there in my opinion. If you want to immigrate like Arabs immigrate to Europe, no issue with that. But Arabs in Europe dont kick natives of their land and make their own state then take even more land Ironically Zionism is a project to kick out Jews from Europe, it is anti Jewish in nature. Again Europeans fucking over the world and then dumping their shit on other groups.

If someone that called Palestinians human animals, ordered water, electricity and fuel denied to 2.2 million people (close to 1 million kids) and has an arrest warrant for war crimes and crimes agaisnt humanity on his way, if a person like this gets labeled "moderate right wing" in Israel, then I do not want to imagine what a radical right wing person would be. "Kill all Gazans" probably

@Husseinisdoingfine Good shit. Hopefully the first of many

‘Israeli society is living in total denial’ Gideon Levy, a columnist at Israel’s Haaretz newspaper, has said he hopes that “Israelis will start to look upon themselves and not to blame the whole world for what’s going on”. “The notion right now in Israel, as usual, is that the whole world is against us, the whole world is anti-Semitic and let’s get together, we the victims of the world. I don’t know how long it will last because there must be cracks,” he told Al Jazeera. “Israelis should start to ask themselves, ‘Where is my responsibility’? Is it really only the world’s blame? Or maybe there were crimes of war in Gaza. Maybe our leaders should be brought to justice.” These conversations are not yet being had, Levy said. Israeli society, he added, is living in total denial. “And the Israeli media, which is the biggest collaborator with the occupation, is the main reason why the discourse in Israel is still a blame game against the world,” he said. Looks like it was made for somewhat @Nivsch and totally for @Vrubel

Ukraine was neutral until 2013, if not somewhat pro Russia. Then the maiden revolution happened and the country started moving towards the West. Regarding that, there are several theories. Some say it was a US backed coup. Some say it was the majority will of Ukrainian people. Personally, I do not know, I am not informed enough so cannot say. But "Ukraine moving west" is a development as of the last 10 years. It is new. It was independent since 1991, do not forget that. I saw Yanakovic guy was pretty corrupt and he fled to Russia. Makes sense they wanted him out. But the guy after, was also an oligarch and super corrupt too, so it wonders if there was actually any real change until Zelensky came. And now Zelensky has a ton of corruption accusations. So this whole thing is a big mess. I do not know what to believe. All I can say is that Ukraine was forced to do some good anti corruption reform from 2022 because EU asked them to for EU integration and it seems according to EU Commission that the country started moving westwards. But I do not know if any progress was done about Ukraine from 2014 until 2022. Most countries are getting better. It includes Russia, China, India, Poland, Rwanda etc. Perhaps. I am not informed enough to say whether what you say is legit or not. I do know that in Russia you do not see hundreds of thousands of people dying in 2 years because of "Putin's oppression" so the war is a much bigger killer than any oppression. And you are arguing for national identities holding more importance than human life. That is a somewhat stage blue nationalistic point of view. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/22/world/europe/russia-ukraine-toll-bodies.html#:~:text=be independently verified.-,Mr.,and 100%2C000 to 120%2C000 wounded. "Mr. Zelensky’s accounting of Ukrainian casualties differs sharply from estimates by U.S. officials, who, this past summer said that close to 70,000 Ukrainians had been killed and 100,000 to 120,000 wounded." I would pick US estimates over Ukranian ones. Just like I would pick US estimates over Russian ones. It is not wise to take into account what parties involved in war have to say since they have heavily biased agendas.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/article/2024/may/20/icc-prosecutor-seeks-arrest-warrants-israeli-pm-netanyahu-hamas-officials-war-crimes The chickens have come home to roast "Self defense" my ass.