Karmadhi

Please differentiate between Jews and Zionists. Bernie is also a Jew yet he calls out all their devilry. The issue is hardcore Zionists, not your average Jew. And unfortunatenly Israelis have been conditioned to hate Palestinians. I keep seeing on social media testimonies of Israelis saying horrible things about Palestinians like they all are Hamas and should die etc. It has been hundreds at this point. That society is full of hate. Always has been. Palestinians are too. The only reason why I am softer on Palestnians is because they are not very educated and because they have been through immense horrible shit from Israel. Israel has not been through much shit from Palestine. There were basically no deaths of Israelis from Palestinians from 2001 until 2023. Meanwhile thousands of Palestinians died in that period. An example would be the 2014 Gaza war where basically no civilian Israeli died but 1500 Palestinian civilians died.

Western Ukraine has always been anti Russian. Part of it is the brutal Stalin famine which I totally understand. It killed millions. But the Nazis later on killed even more and for some reason only the hatred for Russia stayed. Point is that great powers menddle in the elections of small countries. Yet only Ukraine makes a big deal out of it. This stems from anti Russian sentiment. Perhaps the Soviet era was bad to Ukraine even after Stalin. I do not know. I do not have enough information. All I know is that there were issues and most of them are Russians. If they want to be part of Russia, it is totally understandable. Perhaps they do not want to be part of Russia anymore and they see themselves as Ukranian. In that case, sure. It is a tricky topic because different people there will say different things. Ideally a clean referendum would have been nice to decide where the region should stay. It is not when most of the aid comes from the US. US is much involved here. Might as well call Vietnam an Asian war. Now Ukraine is striking Russia with US weapons. Thing is we need to know for sure if the Ukranian government post 2014 was or was not a Western puppet government. A lot say that CIA was involved in the Maidan revolution. I have read all sorts of stuff. Personally I do not know. But for sure the West influences Ukranian foreign policy a lot. Probably as much as Russia influences Belarus or Georgia foreign policy. Or close to it. You have partisanship from all sides. Some blame the West for this war, some blame Putin. Some blame both. There is a lot of conflicting arguments and views, it is hard to believe for sure anything. Normally I would just believe the side that is more honest but issue is that I do not see either the US nor Russia as honest parties. US has showed on the Gaza war how much they are willing to lie. Russia lies a ton too. So we have 2 liars telling us two different versions and you need now to decide the truth. It is hard. I tend to listen to both sides but I have little strong opinions on this matter. Even social media does not help. Plenty telling Zelensky in comments to stop the war, then other comments saying to keep fighting. The only things I can say for sure is that the invasion is totally wrong and tons of war crimes happened in Ukraine which were unnecessary.

You missed my point. I am not comparing it to that. I am saying that people that have actually went through hard stuff have said so. Since you claimed "you have not experienced shit so you cannot talk", which is indeed true. So I sent some people that have experienced shit and that is what they had to say. Keep in mind that a genocide does not need to kill millions or 50%+ of the population to be labeled as much. During the Bosnian war, around 30.000 Bosnian civilians were killed (also 30.000 soldiers) and it is called a genocide due to the targeting and intent showed. That is my point. If you read about the crimes that were done in Bosnia, it is quite similar to what the IDF is doing. An example would be snipers killing civilians as they wished, which happens in Gaza a lot. Even kids get shot. I saw a very disturbing video of a very young kid who had half his head blown off from a sniper shot. Sure, I agree with you. Thing is when you equate couple hundreds of civilians killed with tens of thousands it looses the value. Your logic is that 1 of us died and 50 of them. We both did bad things. In theory yes, but it is not proportional, hence 1 side is much worse. They chose the worst place in the world to settle too. That is a direct consequence of that. I would love if Israel lived in peace with its neighbors but the way the country was founded was flawed which leads to this bullshit. As long as it is seen as theft, people will do this.

You have no proof to back up that. Israel itself has no clue how many civilians they have killed. Piers Morgan easily grilled their official spokeperson in his show about this.

You are right. You me or the other guy has not experienced anything horrible like this. Lets maybe look at what those that have experienced horror says about it. Like some Holocaust survivors. BBC News - Holocaust families criticise Israel over Gaza "More than 300 Holocaust survivors and their descendants have issued a statement condemning what they call Israel's "genocide" in Gaza. The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network placed the statement as an advertisement in the New York Times" Hmmm.... Also Russia could do a lot worse in Ukraine. By that logic we are also cool with Putin now?

If you guys had the same tolerance for Palestinians that you do for LGBT Instead of being happy when they die.

Issue is that the israeli army does tons of war crimes and is overall very racist. They abuse childreen in the west bank, bully people etc. I saw an interview of an ex IDF guy who said "We all have total knowledge of who lives where in the West Bank and sometimes we do raids in the middle of the night, knowing the people in that house are innocent. We did it in order to keep them obedient to us. This had made the guy question the approach and later went to denounce it. This is for example someone I can respect. Another case I saw was where they would put Palestinians in very closed spaces as punishment's and then forget about them and they were stuck there for hours or even days. Sometimes the soldiers did it out of boredoom. There was another confession by ex IDF about this. I wish I could find the videos to send it here. So an army like this to me seems basically a gang of bullies and criminals. Serving in it pollutes your ethics. There are way too many incidents like this to justify it. I am not saying everyone there is like this but the undertone and systemic approach is extremely ruthless, especially by our modern liberal moral standards. Which is why I cannot respect people that endorse such a bully machine. Defending you country is one thing but the shit I wrote above is just cruel and wrong and unecessary. And about the nerdy girl doing programming. Here is what a programmer with orthodox Jew ideology can lead to: ‘The machine did it coldly’: Israel used AI to identify 37,000 Hamas targets | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

Sorry, I meant of beheaded babies or people tied in and burnt alive and that horrible stuff people wrote without any footage. I did see the footage at Hamas.com. It was basically people shot mostly. I did not see woman belly opened or baby in an oven or anything like that. Let alone done in plural, meaning in multiple cases. Scale also matters here. 1-2 incidents is not the same as a systematic approach. Saying people were shot is 1 thing. Saying people were killed in the most medievil mongolian way is another. I am challenging the second point, not the first. Hamas systematic approach was shot in the head whoever you saw. That is a Nazi approach, not a medieval approach.

There are plenty of very reasonable Palestinian officials. They may be corrupt in terms of abusing funds but they are not for destruction of Israel. West Bank government I think is moderate enough for a two state. I have seen on Piers Morgan Palestinian officials come and they are very reasonable people. At least much more than Bibi or Ben Gvir. Hamas is indeed anti two state but they do not need to be the governing body. And most Palestinians live in the West Bank, not in Gaza. There were reasonable Israelis on the past, sure. But today it seems they go from right to Nazi right. There is no center or left anymore. Even "moderates" would be considered far right here in Europe. The October attacks make Israelis more right and Israel massacre in Gaza makes Palestinians more right. So we are stuck in this shit. I think it would be good if both top Israeli and Hamas leaders would be arrested and trialed for war crimes by the international court. So people from both sides would learn that you cannot get away with bullshit. Also the West Bank illegal settlements need to stop and be torned down. Palestine according to 1960s borders need to be cleansed from illegal settlements. I think these 2 things would be a good start and they are not that impossible to be done. I mean, what justification is there for the West Bank illegal settlements? To me it seems plain wrong. More than 500 or so people have died since October there, it is now almost as many as Israeli October attack. And they had nothing to do with it. It makes Palestinians rightfully think that even if Hamas was gone and they created a moderate government they would still be treated like shit and have more land illegaly stolen. How do people in Isarel justify this?

Issue is that Israel is unwilling to give them a proper state, always has been. If Israel was serious about peace it would give Palestine a state, according to the 1948 borders. If that is not possible, 1967 borders. I understand that is very hard now with Hamas being so popular but why did they not do it in the past? I read that Bibi personally tried to undermine the Oslo accords and many Israelis have said they were a shit deal for Palestinians. I see a total lack of desire from Israel to become serious about this.

Yes, but I was refering to their attitude before 2014. There was tons of hate. Yanakovic was democratically elected. Being messed around yes but that is normal. Every big power does so. You think US doesnt? They influence my home country all the time. It is a big power thingy. I do not see people pissed about it except Ukraine. I wish it did not happen in general but that is how the world is. To be frank, what made Ukraine anti Russia is the appeal of the west and its wealth. It is very tempting to start looking westward when you see how rich it is compared to Russia. Yes, they happen to push their shit on others. The hatred now from the war is normal. But why didnt Ukraine let those regions become independent? It was at first the goal to make them indepndent republics. They themselves wanted to. Or am i missing something? Just to be clear. I do not like Russia nor their government. To me all the stolen territory should go back to Ukraine Russian leaders charged for war crimes and the whole government replaced with a liberal democracy. I just dont think they are much worse than the US from a foreign policy POV. So in terms of invading, bombing, toppling government, destablizing and pure selfishness. US has invaded and destroyed more countries than Russia has to be frank. The only thing US has better than Russia, is how they treat their own citizens which is miles apart from Russia. But in terms of pure foreign policy, to me it is basically trash vs garbage. Even if Russia magically became a democracy like the US is, I would not think things would improve considering how bad US foreign policy is (and they are a democracy) EU policy I like much more, especially those of small countries like Scandinavian, Belgium, Ireland.

You need to see it in full display to see the suffering your country is causing. Reading about it is not the same. The main reason people are so emotional and pissed about this war are the endless footage of burnt, dead, blown apart kids circulating since October. Compare it with Ukraine where there is no footage of dead people, just destroyed buildings. People barely care about that war anymore from a humanitarian perspective. Dead kids make people react more than anything else. Meanwhile there is basically no footage of dead kids from October attacks. If you wonder why people seem to downplay those attacks so much.

There are protests right now by Israeli liberals and activists calling out the atrocities done in Gaza. Those Israelis are what you would call "the best humanity have to offer", they are the equivalent of anti Putin Russians or anti Nazi Germans. Unfortunately such people are few. Since you coined this term here "the best humanity has to offer", I would use that for Israelis that are against the war crimes in Gaza and against right wing Zionism. This is the best humanity has to offer. Eternal respect and love. They should lead Israel towards a better path.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008–2009) It is shocking how brutal Israel has always been on Gaza. It is the same tactics, the same crimes as today. And back then there was no October terrorist attacks. Whoever blames this on Hamas massacring civilians is full of shit. They always targeted Gaza as a whole even when there were no killings of Israeli civilians. The only difference now is that the scale is 40 times larger. It is sad that those kids that became orphans or had kids die from this, ended up joining Hamas and maybe being implicated on the October terrorist attacks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War Also this one, but this is fairly more known. By reading this, I understand where the hatred of Palestinians comes from towards Israel. I cannot seem to find where Israeli hatred of Palestinians comes from. The last proper attack against Israeli population was in 2001. And the last proper war was 50 years ago. Where do the 20 year olds get this hate in Israel?

Dont you find it disturbing that it is hard with us that have no real horse in the race to reach consensuses with relatively conscious Israelis (I say so since they are even on this forum). Imagine now for ur average Palestinian who has dead people from Israel to reach consensus with a government full of radicals. Impossible...

Ok, but was the land they bought 60% of Palestine? Also did the number of Jews that migrated there legally become 60% of the people that lived in the land? If yes, then I stand corrected. I am not against the partition plan but to me whenever you split land, it should be proportional to the people that live there. The majority gets most of the land. But that is my bias. Again, the issue I got is that a British guy can claim Israeli citizenship meanwhile a Palestinian cannot. That is a big issue. Legality is tricky because laws change with time. If by legal you mean the Palestinian government (yes, they had passports even), approved it then it is fair game. If by legal you mean the UK said "these people will come here", then that is a red flag. Because UK has their own interest and agenda. Issue is the excuse they use for it. Israelis say "we are here because the land was ours 2000 years ago". Putin says "Ukraine and Russia were 1 entity 1000 years ago and therefore we claim it again".

The land used to be part of the British mandate and it was theirs to do as they please. What do you mean by legally? Palestinians had no say in it. They wanted their land because their bible idolizes it. LOL, it was called Palestine and it was all Arabs with muslims being the majority. Not European land. There is a speech by Hitler given in 1939 where he reads a letter written to him by FDR telling him "not to attack these countries". One of them is Palestine. So it was indeed a state, at least in the eyes of FDR. Now you can say the national identity was not there, sure. But that land had a name. Also Putin saw an opportunity to make Russia and Ukraine 1 again and he took it. Now we are also cool with Putin it seems. If they hadnt then it would have been more understandable I guess the Israeli position. But I wish the Arabs had not declared war at all and this issue to have been solved. I think Arabs were on the wrong to declare war and then Jews went too far with the Nakba and did countless horrible atrocities. I have heard testimonies of Israeli soldiers that fought at that time and they were very very disturbing. They seemed to find it funny. They openly said that great injustice was done to the Arabs at the time. So both sides have blame. I dont either. A two state solution is the best way forward. The issue is that Israel is blocking it at the moment. Spain Norway Ireland just recognized Palestine some days ago and Israel got mad and expelled ambassadors. Even 10 years ago when Sweden recognized Palestine, Israel got mad. They do not want a proper Palestinian state. That is the issue.

They suffered a holocaust by Europeans. Why should Arabs have to pay for it? Give them a part of Germany and nobody would have complained. Arabs feel rightfully angry at having to pay for European devilry. Regarding Jews being expelled, perhaps it is true, however it is so long ago it does not justify them claiming the land now. By that logic Putin is right to claim all of Ukraine since 1000 years ago Ukraine and Russia were 1 entity (Kievan Rus). See how absurd the logic is? Then the UN partition plan should have given them 1/3 of the land, not 60%. Also a lot of Jews were dumped there by the UK from 1910 onward which is why 1/3 of them were Jewish. But sure, give them 1/3 of the land, not 60%. That was indeed wrong but it was a consequence of Israel ethnic cleansing. But it was wrong, it is not something to defend. It was against Jewish nationalism and all the devilry that would come from it. It seems he was right when I see Ben Gvir as a minister. That is irrelevant, the people who lived there and got kicked out or have lesser rights is still painful. A British guy that has never set foot on Israel but allegedly his ancestors were from there 2000 years ago, can claim Israeli passport and live there with all rights meanwhile a Palestinian whose ancestors have lived in that land for centuries cannot claim citizenship and have lesser rights. Cant you see how absurd that is?

Basically Arabs say Israel is not a state, meanwhile Israelis defend themselves by going back to Kindoms of Judea and other stuff dating back over 3000 years. Then Israelis will say Palestine is not a state, meanwhile Palestinians will defend themselves by going back to 1920s and 1930s where you had the "Palestinian Mandate" which even Roosevelt indirectly recognized as a country on a Hitler's speech in 1939. Clown show.

I think this is a bit of a lie though. I have spoken with many hardcore Arabs about this. Basically they want their LAND back. Not to wipe out Jews, they do not care about Jews per say. It is about LAND. If Israel magically gave Palestine back all their land from the 1947 mandate, I think they would stop hating you guys so much. They basically see the whole 1947 UN partition plan as bullshit done by the US/UK and do not see it as legit. That is why Arabs went to war with Israel. There were already jews living in that piece of land and things were fine. They were treated quite well and they lived in harmony with the muslims there. Everything started going to shit when European Jews came there and then it became a melting pot of random nationalities claiming Israeli citizenship. If that land was only kept for Arab Jews within an Arab country, I think Jews there would have been fine. Fundamentally the issue here is not Jews, but ZIONISM. If you are a non Zionist Jew you will be loved more by Arabs than being a non Jewish Zionist. But that is my interpretnation. Now with this Gaza war, you will have an entire generation of Palestinians wanting to kill you and an entire generation of youth around the world despising Israel and calling it a genocidal terrorist disgusting country. The damage done to Israeli reputation is as large as the damage done to Gaza materially.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/knesset-member-walks-back-on-facebook-post-calling-palestinian-kids-little-snakes This is from a politican. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240314-ben-gvir-backs-police-who-killed-child-in-jerusalem/ Another one. I also saw tons of soldiers that were in live streaming with Palestinians saying this type of stuff. Also random Israelis. Also some people on show medias. I do not have direct sources right now to send you. But i saw dozens of these examples. Yes. Israel does not care and often targets civilians on purpose. Or it is willing to basically destroy entire buildings to get 1 guy. Can you send some sources for that. Never heard that. I can imagine a 15 year old guy might, but I am talking here about kids younger than 10. The median age dead is 5 year old according to a norwegian study. https://www.instagram.com/p/Czkqdv0tKAf/

@hundreth Thank you a lot for your explanation. I just find it hard to understand when Israelis say "Babies are terrorists" and stuff like that. I can understand that adults or teenagers want you dead, but when you call a 3 year old terrorist, I cannot understand that. A 2 year old does not know anything. The rest was spot on, thank you.

I have some questions to ask you, if you do not mind. I am really curious. First, what is the public opinion of the war, especially now. What do Israelis think about the countless war crimes they are accused of and especially for the footage that comes out of Gaza of dead kids. Secondly, is the desire for revenge still there or is it mostly gone after 7 months of war. I could imagine at the beginning it was very high. Lastly and most importantly, why do I see so many videos of soldiers being happy about destroying Gaza, killing people etc, including also political analyst etc. How does an IDF person rationalize it when they snipe a child (I saw footage of a dead kid who had been sniped in his head). This is an educated society with a functioning democracy and wealth. How can they degrate into such animalistic type behavior? Especially when most of them have not been personally affected by the Hamas attacks. Even if they have, it is not like with Hamas fighters who many were orphans (much higher degree of being impacted by the enemy). USA had terrorist attacks happen to it, so did UK, France and Spain. But never have I seen such hatred and collective moral degradation of a whole first world rich educated society. I am really curious to understand.

Wait, are you Israeli?

I am not an expert but I think "destroyed" means either if the actual building is gone (razed to the ground as people say) or damaged beyond repair so it has to be demolished. "Damaged" means that the building is most likely no longer usable by people to live in (or conduct human activities) but it can still be repaired. Note that repairing a building costs money so sometimes it is actually cheaper to just demolish it and build a new one. It depends on the type of building. For example in Germany after WW2 it was cheaper to demolish the beautiful European style buildings that were damaged and instead build some cheap ugly ones Soviet style. Reconstruction of that type of building takes a long time and money since they have a lot of details in them. In Gaza I think its cheap buildings so perhaps it might be feasible to repair some, but it still has a cost and the place is now basically broke. I think the aid will go first to repair essential stuff like hospitals, schools, etc which are gone now.