Karmadhi

I am not talking about Iran man, I am talking about Palestine here. Iran is of course a big threat. However, considering they do not have nuclear weapons (at least as we know of) and Israel does, I cannot call Iran an existential threat. But I may be wrong. Anyway, this was not about Iran. Yes but that was in 1967, things are totally different now. And again, we are talking about Palestine here. Recognizing a palestinian state would only ease tensions. Hezbollah would calm down, so would the Houthis. Saudi Arabia and Qatar could become allies. Leo has said it best, Israel wants land more than it wants peace. If they give up land (West Bank) and recognize Palestine, their peace prospects will increase.

It can be whatever it wanted, people now call it occupied Palestinian land and will act according to that. I am talking practical terms here. And the brutal way Israel treats people there does not help. Because that is how you see. Putin sees it differently. Putin would say that a superpower with nuclear weapons at his doorstep that can wipe Russia off the map, is a bigger or equal threat than some radical Jihadists that at their best can just scratch Israel. I do not endorse what he did, just saying that many Russians justify his devilry using this argument. Lastly, do not forget that the official recognized Palestinian government is the PLO, not Hamas. PLO are not jihadist radicals that want to wipe Israel out and would start sending rockets to Israel first thing. They seem to be reasonable and would not start attacking Israel. They can create conditions to the new Palestinian state, one of them being that radical terrorist groups like Hamas will not be allowed to take power.

Then you will get endless terrorist attacks and hatred from Palestinians and despised by most of the world . If that is what you want go ahead. Oh yes, also it will make normalization of relations with other Arab states 10x harder. Saudi and Qatar have made it clear they wont normalize relations without a proper Palestinian state. Nothing in life is purely evil. Putin invasion of Ukraine also has some logic behind it if you try to look for it. You can rationalize everything, including Generplans Ost if you are creative enough. Does not mean it is the right thing to do and should be allowed to proceed. You have struck me as the most moderate Israeli in this forum given all you have written here, but you just spat out right wing Israeli arguments now.

Dude cant you see that you are talking basically like a far right Israeli and even justifying the illegal settlements that basically nobody in the world supports except far right Israelis. Not even many Israelis dont support it. I know @Nivsch has expressed his concerns about it. No offense but you seem like someone who would vote for Ben Gvir. If I am wrong, you can correct me.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/06/1150946 "In several locations, ISF applied the so-called ‘Hannibal Directive’ and killed at least 14 Israeli civilians. That Directive is reportedly a procedure to prevent capture of ISF members by enemy forces and was alleged to have been directed against Israeli civilians on 7 October". @Vrubel @Nivsch @Gennadiy1981 `So much for Israel being pro life and caring about its people

It is used by many intelligent people and gives Trump a lot of points. So whether it is stupid or not, it brings votes. I think so too. One thing I think about Trump is that he would be harsher on negotiating peace between Ukraine and Russia. This war at this point is just stupid and unnecessary. Biden cares more about weakening Russia than saving Ukraine which is a policy I cannot endorse. Perhaps, Trump would be the same. But Biden handling of this war at this point is problematic. Ukraine is being destroyed in a cruel war of attrition which is cannot win. They would have been much better off doing a peace deal in 2022 in Istanbul which was basically hijacked by US/UK. John Mearsheimer often mentions it.

Well you do the same for Palestinians all the time. Many Israelis say "Palestine does not exist" and other shameless lies. Also, nobody is saying there were no Jews there. How many times do I have to say it: The issue is NOT with Middle Eastern Jews but with EUROPEAN Jews that mass migrated there from 1900 onward. There is little to no proof a white polish guy is autochthonous to an Arab land. If there is proof, do a DNA test for it. Why should people believe you that a white European Polish is from the middle east from 2000 years ago. A lot of shit can happen in 2000 years. I would not be suprised if some of the European Jews that went to Israel actually became Jews during the millenias they were in Europe and have 0 relation to the land itself. They were basically White Europeans that became one day Jews. Just because the land is claimed to be "Jewish" land does not mean they are entitled to it unless they have roots from there. If you actually talk with people that dont like Israel, that is the main argument they give. They find it basically settler colonialism. So do not attack me personally, I am voicing out the most common argument I hear against Israel. If you want to debunk the lie, you use facts. Thats all. The Torah is not a fact, sorry.

Please stop with this biased cringe. It is delusional. Let me sober you with some actual reality https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/11/un-children-conflict-gaza-russia-sudan/3120d6ee-2839-11ef-835a-2a6acac1f8a6_story.html "For the first time, the U.N. report put Israeli forces on its blacklist of countries that violate children's rights for the killing and maiming of children and attacking schools and hospitals". Very life loving indeed.

No. Obama did. Bush did. The argument is because Trump is unpredictable and non diplomatic, it would make countries think twice about starting wars that hurt the US. Putin would not have dared to invade Ukraine like he did. This is one example I hear people say. I am not an expert per say. But i do know Putin did not invade Ukraine under Trump. Perhaps it is chance, perhaps it was by design.

It is illegal under international law. UN has said it clearly. No country supports it. Only hardcore Jews like yourself. Different times, different circumstances, different leaders. You cannot compare. Still 1000x better than how Europe treated Jews. For the most part they lived together in harmony. Plenty of Jews came to Palestine and were welcomed. Of course not everyone was happy about that, so here we go. And israel did 1000x worse afterwards, so... No they will not. That is what Israel wants. To create greater Israel and within it, to treat certain groups as lower citizens aka apartheid. If you guys were serious about peace, you would have Israel within 1960s borders with top tier security, you would be much safer than having to micro manage the West Bank and Gaza. But you want land more than security. That is the issue. Your fundamental argument for shameless illegal land grab is religious nonsense. When you start talking to me about Bible stuff, then you already lost. Nobody uses religion to justify shit on 2024. We are beyond that now. If you want to be serious about it, do a DNA test and see if you are actually from that land you call Israel. Science is how you prove this shit, not religion. When Islam uses holy books to justify stuff, they get shamed for it. There is a reason DNA tests are illegal in Israel. Because if people started doing them, they would realize that they do not belong there and are just shameless colonizers and their whole identity would collapse.

How so? I heard no wars started under him, which is one reason he is so popular. Obama and Biden started a tons of wars, or a ton of wars started under them.

That is true, but is the case with a lot of politicians. It is just that on Trump it is more prominent. To even be a top politican you need to be selfish as fuck, ruthless and fuck a ton of people over. Politicians with true integrity are rare. A lot of the games they play are not even visible for most of us because it happens so behind the scenes. So although Trump is horrible, the criticisms you lay of him are not only applicant to him.

Not that many. It is crazy that they have such key positions considering how little they represent.

Dude, nobody is saying Israel should dissapear and all the Jews from there go back to Europe. You are the one wanting Palestinians to fuck off from their own land. Cant you see how crazy that is! Why dont you do the 2 state solution and everyone lives and chills in their state. Issue is Israel wants land more than it wants peace. Their actions are inflammatory to peace. Especially West Bank ILLEGAL settlements. Here is a solution for you: Recognize Palestine according to 1960s borders, kick out all the illegal settlers and leave in Israel and chill there. You dont seem to appreciate Palestinians though.

What is interesting is that if most of us would talk about most other topics, we would greatly agree. This one tends to seperate us a lot. And it is because some of you have direct skin in the game.

@Nivsch Can you please answer my question? It came from genioune curioustiy not criticism.

Is Ben Gvir and Smotrich popular in Israel? Not to your friends per say but in general. Non Israelis tend to use them as proof whenever they want to shit on Israel "Look at these 2 guys, this is the face of Israel", is a typical comment you will get from people living in Europe for example.

Totally agree here.

Look I am not denying that they ORIGINATED from the Middle East. But when you stay 2000 years in Europe, you adopt European values and even your genetic composition changes you basically can be considered European. I mean, we all came from Africa originally yet we do not all call each other African. DNA tests are not allowed in Israel. Bibi came from Poland for example. He does not look Arab and even his last name used to be different, a Polish one until he changed it for political reasons. Same for Smotrich, he is Ukranian. There are some Arab Jews, like Ben Gvir is from Morocco for example but most are not from that region region. Palestinians tend to come from that region region. So they are more indeginious imo. The connection Israelis had with that land 2000 years ago is a legit thing, but it does not justify displacing locals imo. Key word here is IMO. Maybe some see it differently. I know Putin does which is why he thinks Ukraine should be 1 with Russia, because of shit from 700 years ago. But I do not agree with Putin on that one.

@Danioover9000 Bruh i cant...

Jesus Christ. I will explain to you in detail to avoid confusion. Basically, what I mean is this. German citizens born during that era who were prone to propaganda, hatred, self bias and group think, tended to support the Nazis. That is how the Nazis gained power. By creating this view that Germans are the most important group and everyone else is totally irrelevant in comparison. This is called self bias and Leo talks about it a lot. When you say that you are down to kill 240.000 civilians just to save 4 of your own, you are basically operating under the same selfish biased frequency that many Germans did during that time. Sorry but when you say "A fingernail of a Jewish person is more important than all Palestinians" you sound genocidal and extremely hateful and biased. Just like the Nazis were. I am not saying you would support a genocide out of the blue like the Nazis did. I am saying your mind is equal to the immense bias that most Germans fell into and became Nazis. Hope it is more clear now. Well considering Israel is the most hated country in the world right now, it seems so.

That goes both ways. If Jews went back to Europe from Israel that also would solve many issues. And they are more compatible with Europe than Palestinians are and Europe has a soft spot for them now. Better solution to me, if you want to go down that route.

Israel is a prime example that moral development is not linked with techonology development nor economic development. If you see interviews of people in Israel they seem to be openly ok with genocide and ethnic cleansing. Here in Western Europe where I live it is out of the world to openly have such views. And Western Europe has also suffered from terrorist attacks in the last 10 years. So that is not an excuse.

Considering most of them are Europeans it makes sense. They are not Middle Easterns “Killing Of Innocent Is Not Unique Here” | Ex-IDF Soldier Slams Israeli Government For War In Gaza (youtube.com) Some facts from someone that has been there. One example of humanity s best.

😂 Im still hoping its trolling man