Karmadhi

You sound like Putin. Nice job. Just replace Israel with Russia and Palestine/Lebanon with Ukraine and you got basically the same narrative Putin uses. "It is Russian land because of blla blla 800 years ago blla blla".

Meanwhile the Hamas terrorists who are supposed to be torturing their hostages everyday seem to feed them well and barely touch them. I saw footage of the 4 that were rescued. Well fed, no bruises and seemed to be in overall good physical shape. No trauma either. Talk about who the real terrorists are. And before you call the Palestinian prisoners as terrorists, I saw some of the Hamas hostages were IDF personnel that were actually captured while in duty. So they are not innocent either if you want to use that logic. An IDF personnel is the Israeli version of a Hamas fighter.

When you consider a finger nail more worthy than 2 million civilians then ofc the IDF will seem noxious ethical. Most people have higher standards for what they consider ethical though.

Israel has made it clear they will not leave even if hostages are released. Bibi said it countless times. They want Hamas gone (whatever that means) so releasing hostages will not really help. The logical thing would be for Hamas to release all hostages and Israel to leave Gaza for good. But that will not happen. I think Israel wants to destroy Hamas more than to rescue the hostages. It would normally be the logical thing to do if Hamas could actually be defeated.

I am all for two states but if we had to pick just 1 then Israel is the one that has to go. The region was doing fine until they were established. I do not see any added value for the region by Israel existing there, therefore perhaps they can go somewhere else. Since you guys love the US so much maybe you should all go there. Personally I think either side leaving is an option.

@Nivsch Traumatised Palestinian detainee describes torture in Israeli custody | Gaza | Al Jazeera Since you seem to care so much about the hostages, how is this any different from a hostage? An innocent man abducted without charge and tortured. The hostages at least seemed in good shape when they were rescued. This is pure evil. And it has happened to thousands of innocent people. This guy is 1 out of many. @VrubelIs this what your "son of light" do?

I would like you to fake yourself a Palestinian passport, go to the West Bank pretending to be a Palestinian and live there for 1 month. Then tell me how much they care about "human rights". UN human rights chief: situation in West Bank 'drastically deteriorating' | Reuters Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org) Saying Israel cares about human rights is delusional. Of course, as a Jew you do not see it like this because Israel treats them super well. Therefore faking a Palestinian passport and going to West Bank is necessary to get the legit experience. And before you say "West Bank is not Israel", well they currently put settlements there, do not recognize it as another country and have presence so it falls under Israeli jurisdiction .

Not true. There are corruption index for this. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe for sure, but Europe is a high standard. 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index: Explore the… - Transparency.org According to this Ukraine rains 104th in the world out of 180 countries. So it is unfair to call it one of the most corrupt. But it definitely is corrupt. And for European standards it is super corrupt. I think their undemocratic decision to not have elections and keep Zelensky as a de factor leader is much more problematic than the corruption.

Scope dude. Please. Scope. When Israelis killed a similar amount of people in the past as civilians dying on october nobody said much either. If Hamas had killed 15.000 kids and 40.000 civilians then people would be reacting differently. Also the footage makes a big difference. The footage from October 7th is being disclosed and shown only to some journalists, compared to the footage from Gaza which everyone can see.

Alright fair points. I have seen on news that Bibi tried to sabotage the Oslo accords and there was some stuff going on behind the scenes but to be honest I am not informed enough. If the people I wrote above would be Palestinian leaders, I think this issue would be solved (assuming Israel has good leadership too). We non Israelis are presented this view that Hamas runs Gaza and they are bad and PLO runs West Bank and they are pro peace victims that are getting oppressed by Ben Gvir and company. This is the image portrayed. Just to let you know how people see it.

PLO is ok no? I seen some interviews with them and they seem not less reasonable than your centralist Israeli. Husan Zomlot, Mustafa Bourgouti, Majed Bayma etc. They seem fine to me. If they are not PLO my mistake. These guys seem fine to me I mean.

Leo has said it best. You guys want land more than you want peace. Recognize Palestine alongisde the 1967 borders and destroy and kick out all the settlers and you this will end. Your soverign Jewish state is alongisde 1967 borders, everything else is illegal stolen land. How hard is that to do? Otherwise, do not cry when you get suicide bombers and Hamas attacks. You are asking for that, so no complaints. They will not stop until you do what I wrote above. By you I mean Israel at large, not you personally.

Do you consider yourself right left or central wing?

I didnt see anyone on the forum say that. Unless I missed something. It does circulate online this theory but I did not see it being seriously mentioned here. But you can fill me in if i am mistaken. To be honest man, I tend to see people in positive ways but some of the stuff you write here is downright genocidal. I find it very disturbing. Advocating ethnic cleansing for example is below the standard of this forum. So is quoting religious books to justify something. Or equating the finger nail of 1 person with the lives of hundreds of thousands of children just because that finger nail belongs to someone who is "your people". It is purely Stage Blue level of thinking and I expect higher standards from this forum.

If Israel did the 1 state solution and basically annexed the West Bank (it currently occupies it, just like Russia occupies Eastern Ukraine), would Palestinians living there have voting rights? It is ironic that Russia, as bad as it is, still gives Russian passports and all to Ukranians it illegaly occupies and Israel does not. Democracy? How? Democracy is that everyone within greater Israel has same voting rights and is entitled to an Israeli passport. If I am missing something let me know.

They fear getting charged by the ICC. Now they are slowly trying to distance themselves

@Danioover9000 It is just for fun at this point. Nobody will change their mind if they did not change it yet. Neither we, or them. For me it is interesting because I have 0 friends that side with Israel and therefore it was the chance to learn from their pov. And we had very varied Israelis here, from least to most hardcore. The best playground to test Leo bias videos (including ours). We are also biased. By we, I mean pro Palestinians.

@Raze The amount of war crimes they do at this point does not even shock me anymore. I dont know what else is left for them to do. Every evil known to the human mind has been done at this point there. 100x worse than Hamas attacks Israeli politician quotes Hitler, talks of wiping out Gaza | Al Jazeera Newsfeed (youtube.com) The face of modern Israel, i honestly do not understand how a Jew think about quoting Hitler out of all people. Seems like 4 Israeli ministers are Neo Nazi in their attitude (agriculture and heritiage minister on top of the common 2 which are well known to be like that).

Also Maldives kicked them out and dont allow them to come anymore. I would not be suprised if Non American/European countries basically boycott Israel in many ways, if they continue with their bs.

It does matter a lot because it makes Hamas has a certain image which may or not be true. Saying "A group of people went in a village and shot everyone they found and raped some" is a classical textbook military practice which still happens today. It is unfortunately still common in war. Russians did it in Bucha, US did it in Vietnam. Etc. Saying "A group of people went into a village, beheaded babies, put babies in ovens, tied childreen and burned them alive, cut bellies of preagant women etc", is no longer a classical textbook military practice. It happens in very specific places around the world but humanity at large has evolved past this. It paints the group as a bunch of barbaric medieval people. It creates much stronger emotions. Leo has said it well "It is not just how many you kill, but also how you kill that counts". 1 clip of a beheaded Palestinian baby killed in Rafah caused an insane outrage, much more than literally hundreds of children's that have been shot dead by Israeli snipers. It creates powerful emotions. What happened that day is indeed horrific, no deny there. But the way you portray the people responsible is important because it will then justify doing horrible things back. If the emotional outrage that causes that justification is built based on lies, it makes the whole ordeal much more manipulative and untruthful.

@Nivsch @Gennadiy1981 The difference between you 2 is that Nivsch tends to be more central in his views regarding this issue while Gennadiy is more radical. Nivsch calls people like Ben Gvir too radical and extreme. Also most importantly, he is in favour of two state and does not use Torah and bible stuff to justify anything. And he seems to have some compassion for the suffering of Palestinians and does admit the government goes too far sometimes. So yeah. @Vrubel Is somewhere between Nivsch and Gennadiy. More harsh than Nivsch but less radical than Gennadiy. He is pro two state and recognizes that the land is also partially Palestinian. But when it comes to the Israeli Gaza response, I have not seen him say that they went too far ever. My assessment of you guys. Thank you for being here and posting about this, it gives interesting insight of Israelis and how they differ towards this issues.

Maybe in the past. Now they want land more than peace. The West Bank illegal expansion is the proof. They could easy have some UN presence or international presence to ensure that will not happen. And worse case it happens, Israel will be way more justified to invade them and kick them out of power. Just like US invaded Iraq and took out their dictator. And why should Israel secretly hold nuclear weapons while not allowing other countries to do so? This goes both ways.

I think the difference is that the deep state is a large group of people each with their own agendas and biases. Meanwhile the classical conspiracy theories involve a very well organized group of ultra powerful elites that control everything in a very hierarchal and centralized way. Meanwhile the deep state is not centralized nor well organized. It is basically a list of powerful groups, each with their own agendas. There is no small circle in control dictating everything and the rest abiding. Just my thoughts.

Interesting considering you posted videos of Judge Napolitano and John Mearsheimer regarding Ukraine in your forum to educate us about this issue, yet you basically are disagreeing with the core of their argument. Which is "Putin is doing this against NATO expansion, not to grab land and that if NATO backed off he would not grab further land". That is the core of the very videos you posted on the forum. The reason I found out about John Mearsheimer is because of the video you posted on the forum of him saying that. Same with Judge Napolitano. I know these guys from you. So, I am surprised that now you call that argument childish and naive. Did you change your mind? Curious.

Hahahahahahahahhaahha Hahhahahaahahahahahahhaahah Does it occur you that Germany had done basically genocide in those countries or treated them like shit? Germany killed like 17% of Polish population in 5 years. Palestine treated Arab Jews fairly well until they started getting dumped in mass on the 1920s. They were part of a brutal Ottoman occupation for 500 years. You keep missing historical injustices and historical context. Totally agreed. I do not think 1 state would work. So 2 states. Each living in their own state. Just like Germany and Poland are today 2 different states. What is the problem? You keep not answering me to this. How so? Does PLO want to create the border of Palestine to include all of Israel? Where have they said so in the negotiations they have done. Send me some sources