Karmadhi

We do not have skin in the game unlike Zionisnts. Our only bias is social justice and naive empathy for oppressed people. Nobody here says that Hamas is a force for good (Zionists say it about Israel). Nobody here says that Hamas are not terrorists (Zionists will never say Israelis are terrorists). Nobody here says that what Hamas did is justified or okay (Zionists do it). So it is not a fair comparison. You can call us biased, sure. But not equivalent. A true equivalence would be if people here said Hamas is good and Israel is bad. Which is the opposite statement of Zionists.

May I ask what draws you to this conclusion? 1 massacre? You know Russians did a similar thing in Bucha for example, yet nobody says that Russians want to do a genocide Holocaust type on Ukranians Massacres happen in tons of wars. Regarding Hamas rhetoric, I have not seen them say that they want to holocaust Israelis, only that they want to destroy Israel as an institution, which would entail ethnic cleansing. If there are sources of Hamas leadership say "kill all Jews", then I will change my mind. The Israelis here are welcome to provide such sources if they want. The fundamental issue here is that so many Palestinians have been through so much under Israeli atrocities that I cannot help but understand their desire for revenge. However, I do not feel like Israelis have went through the same suffering to make me understand what they are have done to Palestine. The best example is 2014, where basically no Israeli civilian got killed but 1500 Palestinian civilians and around 500 children got killed. Those people probably were involved in the October attack. I think in my case it is Green being empathetic to Red, which is what you have said in your Spiral Dynamics video. I do not know. I can admit that Hamas is worse than Israeli people like Yair Lapid or Benny Gantz. But I do not think they are worse than far right people like Ben Gvir or Smotrich. The only difference is that they have other more moderate Israelis and the rest of the world holding them in check. Hamas has nobody to hold them back. If Ben Gvir was dictator of Israel and had no chains from the West, I think he would not be much different from Hamas.

Do you think Hamas would do a Holocaust type genocide on Israelis if they could? I am not an expert on Hamas but I have seen that their charter is the destruction of Israel, that would entail taking all their land and kicking out the jews which is basically ethnic cleansing. Of course tons will also be killed for that to happen. I have not seen Hamas say they want to do a proper genocide. October 7th was their first time ever that they had their hands on large amounts of civilians so of course they would over react and go berserk. An abused person will abuse the first time he gets some sort of break from the cycle of being abused. I do think some of top Hamas leadership is proper genocidal but I doubt all their soldiers are. Keep in mind, those that did the October attack were mostly orphans killed by Israeli strikes, so they were probably the most ruthless Hamas people that had personal stakes on this. It reminded me of Soviets raping and murdering German civilians when they finally got their hands on them during the end of the second world war. They had suffered so much under the Nazis that many of them started abusing Germans.

What would Israel gain by nuking Gaza really? 1. Their hostages would be more likely all killed, resulting in massive protests and possibly a overthrow of the current government. 2. Their reputation would be totally destroyed. 3. Hamas would still survive since they operate 50 meters underground where a nuke will not damage them as much. 4. Israel can easily bomb Gaza with impunity without needing to use Nukes. So why should they even nuke Gaza?

You literally have said in previous posts on this thread that there is reasonable evidence according to the ICJ that Israel is doing genocide in Gaza. Of course Israel cannot be as open as Hamas about it because they have a PR to hold. But do you really think Israel cares about Palestinian civilians more than Hamas cares about Israeli civilians? https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-it-may-be-justified-to-starve-2-million-gazans-but-world-wont-let-us/ The only difference is that in Israel you have some Hamas like people (one I sent above) and some more moderate meanwhile with Hamas everyone is extreme.

https://theconversation.com/one-third-of-ukrainians-would-give-up-land-for-peace-but-its-not-as-simple-as-that-235491 What do you guys think of this? It says it was around 10% last year and now it is 32%. I can imagine this will only increase. Perhaps this is how the war will end.

There were like 1000 people in total for the attack. That is a relatively small number on the grand scheme of things. What will Ukraine do once they are eventually killed? Keep in mind Ukraine sent a top unit for it, not your average soldier. True, only issue is Russia has like 5x the number of soldiers and can easily recruit more. If Ukraine had equal manpower things would be more interesting. But I do not see Ukraine doing any big pushes or holding territory because their troops cannot be replaced. They are desperate for manpower. They should have done this on their counter offensive last year when they had more soldiers. This attack, although effective, is too little too late. It reminds me of the German offensive during the Battle of the Bulge in 1944 (if you are a WW2 nerd like me haha). Still, kudos to Ukraine. They have embarrassed Russia and given themselves tons of prisoners to do future prisoner exchanges. But I do not see this changing the course of the war by any meaningful margin.

Can you explain to me one thing. Israeli logic basically says since Hamas did October 7th, then Israeli society is justified to wipe them out. But what about for example the 2014 Israeli terroristic attacks which killed 3x the number of Palestinian civilians and no Israeli civilians were killed. Does it justify Hamas to want to wipe out the IDF? I am just curious because you seem to downgrade the fact that in the overall picture, Israeli civilian losses are very low compared to Palestine. Not true. Only radical ones. You can thank your Prime Minister for trying to push radical groups like Hamas and silence more moderate groups. How about a two state solution or 1 state where everyone has equal voting rights? Did Israel offer to give them a proper state with equal rights? Curious. Because I read the Oslo accords were not a full statehood. Also when Israel left Gaza, they still did a huge blockade on them.

I dont get what Ukraine is trying to do here. In the long run the territory will be lost anyway. I saw that the unit that pushed in Russia is one of their best and was fully equipped, basically Ukraine s best. Why did they not use this unit to simply defend the East which is being slowly over run by Russia? This would be the best idea in my opinion but I doubt they can hold it for long. I saw it is a unit of 1000 people or something. They will eventually be overrun. Very embarrassing for Russia though, in the very least this is a PR victory for Ukraine.

And Israeli officials have not? Read what Ben Gvir and other key politicians have said. How is it any different? The International Court has said there is reasonable case to think Israeli is doing a genocide in Gaza so how exactly is Hamas 10 times worse? Obviously Israel has a reputation and PR to maintain so they cannot do it as blatantly but the intent and actions are all there. And since you use the nuke argument. The reason Israel does not use nukes its not because it is developed enough not to, its because it simply does not need it due to the huge difference in power. If Israel was cornered in the same way Hamas is, they would totally use it. It is the same reason why Russia has not used nukes in Ukraine yet. Simply they do not need them. Regarding atrocities all I have seen Hamas do is shoot people in the head and rape. Regarding rape, we do not know the scale. Rape in itself is something that happens in every war. Israelis have also done it in Gaza. Shooting people same thing. I just saw a horrible clip of a Gaza mother and baby locked in a house and the house was sat on fire. The IDF soldier was singing on the background while the baby was heard screaming. The IDF guy himself posted it on social media. When you can show me such things done by Hamas then I will believe you The last time i saw such a thing was from a movie called come and see which shows some SS staff doing to a belarusian village

Dude you guys are rich first world people that live super well. People were partying smoking weed when the attack happened. People chill on beaches and overall have great services and social security. The civilian death toll in the last 20 years has been super low (prior to the october attacks), probably more Israelis died from suicide or obesity compared to from Palestinians. That is why we have so little empathy for them. because most of them didnt endure any hardships from the other side

Sorry Leo but your numbers are way off. Its 700 civilians killed and Israel admitted some were killed by their own under the Hannibal doctrine. So most likely Hamas killed around 500 civilians. Also by your own logic Israel is also genocidal by their own admission. So is it ok for Hamas to attack Israel so Israel wont grow like cancer and devour more of Palestine?

Also to ethnically cleanse Gaza by making it impossible to habit by people. From that lens their bombing and destruction of water supplies, civilian housing, hospitals, schools and agricultural land checks out

I feel like this "He is a Zionist" argument is moot. Being a Zionist is not the same as allowing them to do mass murder, disrepect the USA and lie 24 7. You can be a Zionist but keep them in check and punish them if they go out of check. A Zionist would say "Israel has the right to exist", but as long as they start breaking interntional law then we will punish them accordingly. What you refer to here is a shameless Zionist that has no remorse nor principles. It is sad for a democratic USA president to be such a person.

That is indeed true. That does not make him weak but dangerous to democracy. Although I feel like the US has so many checks that it is very hard to become authoritarian. In Israel they had the same issue last year with the justice reforms that would nullify the supreme court. In Israel, is was indeed a high chance it could turn into a dictatorship because they have only 1 check on power which is their supreme court. They do not even have a consitution. Unlike Israel, USA has tons of checks on the power so I feel like it will be hard for Trump to become like Putin. But I am not an expert in American politics.

Okay. But I can flip the script and say that Trump supports the idea that Russia and Ukraine are 1 country but does not want to openly admit it. There is no word for that ideology like there is for Zionism but you get the point. That will not make him a coward, just with a different attitude and outlook on things. Or he does not see Russia as the boogyman others see it but as a potential ally perhaps. I see that Trump does not see Russia as the enemy but he sees China. I am just speculating here. I know that Trump killed the second most powerful person in Iran when he was president. That is quite a daring move and could have sparked a war with Iran. Not something a coward would do. Being friendly to Russia does not make you weak, just different perspective on things. I know many of the political commentators out there say similar things. Now, I am not saying Trump is not stupid. But to me he is more of a unpredictable reckless idiot than a pussy coward. But just my opinion.

If Biden was strong and had a spine he would tell Bibi to fuck off after Bibi seriously hurt Biden and USA reputation as well as loosing him millions of votes. Biden reaction to Bibi and his cabinet complaining about the US not supporting them enough shows how weak he is. I am consistently shocked at how much of a pushover Biden has been regarding that whole issue. Compare that with Bernie's declarations and comments. Night and day difference. A strong USA president would not take that from a country with 10 million people in the other side of the world. https://www.ynetnews.com/article/ryccwveir https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-800531 Imagine if Beria made a declaration saying "Hitler loves Roosevelt" in the middle of world war 2.

I was referring to more about pre October situation. With the war now, I do not except most Israelis to support two state.

So when Leo says that Israelis want land more than peace than he is correct. Thank you for being honest. I hope you realize that attitude will lead to more terrorist attacks and more hatred towards Israelis. If that is a price you are willing to pay, then ok. I already have given you my opinion on this matter regarding where I think the land belongs so I will not waste time on it here again. I just wanted to verify what Leo has said here from day 1. I will a bit later. Ok thank you, what you shared is very interesting. I thought that they were pro two state until the Hamas attack. I can imagine now that nobody will be in favour of it for obvious reasons. So when I talked for pro two state, i meant more for the pre October situation. But I am not very familiar with politics there so I will take what you said into account. It does make a lot of sense to be honest what you say. I obviously do not agree with it, but it is good to say stuff as it is other than sugar coat it. You remind me of some pro Russians I know who say Ukraine should be all Russia and openly say it. For some reason I find transparency easier to deal with. Just one question. I know that there were the Oslo accords in the late 90s and also Israel forced settlers go leave Gaza in 2005. The people in charge that did these things, they were somewhat pro two state right? Or am I missing something?

Which is the most popular Israeli politican right now? Gantz? Yapid? Are Yapid and Gantz similar or different? What about Bennet, I saw he was PM for a short time. To me Bennet seemed more rightwing than some other politicians. What do you think of him?

Ok thank you. It was not linked with the video. I know the guy you sent. Yes, because often here you openly say that the land we call Palestinian territories aka the West Bank and Gaza are Israeli land and should become so. Those 2 say the same, they are all for making them part of Israel. Meanwhile other Israeli politicians tend to be more pro the two state solution which would see those lands becoming part of a Palestinian state. That is the division I see in Israeli politics. Also you seem to me to prioritize the Torah over international law, those 2 are the same.

@Gennadiy1981 Do you like Ben Gvir and Smotricht?

I agree. Usually sanctions make the country worse which can spark resentment against the current government and lead to revolutions or overthrows. That is the logic. If you want for example Putin gone, there is not other realistic way. You cannot just invade Russia you know. You can invade Iraq though. If a country has nuclear weapons you cannot invade them.

To be frank you are a moderate Israeli. The issue is not with people like you. It is with more radical people. So I can understand you.

There is also plenty of collective punishment happening against Israelis in the world by normal people. But on an institution level there is none yet. Israel is still allowed to participate in the Olympics, Eurovision etc. On an individual level, I saw plenty of clips of Israelis not being allowed to serve in restourants etc. Personally, I think it is wrong because you do not know what that individual thinks. Same with Russians. Although, statistically speaking most Israelis do support what happened to Gaza and most Russians do support what happened in Ukraine. But not everyone.