Karmadhi

And 1 million were killed by the mess USA created with their invasion of Iraq.

I think it leads to dictators like Gadaffi or Saddam. Since these countries have tribal conflicts, a strong dictator rises up internally and creates stability by force. To be honest Libya or Syria were much better before the Arab Spring than now. The West really messed up those countries by funding anti government rebels which lead to civil war and now chaos. Same can be said for Iraq. The West is deeply responsible for the issues in that region because of the criminal arbitrary way they carved up the borders of those countries, including Africa. Forcing different groups that hated each other into 1 country which has no feeling of state or nation. Iraq is an example with 3 different groups that do not go well at all. Most civil wars and conflicts in Middle East or Africa are internal conflicts which are often caused by groups of people forced to co live and hence you have wars. Nigerian, Sudan, Congo conflicts are examples. Or at best case you get a dictator like Saddam or Gadafi which unites them by force until West decides to overthrow them and make the country go total chaos. So the West is greatly responsible for the mess there. Being backwards is perfectly fine as long as things are peaceful and no wars there.

From what I have read most of the Muslim hatred towards Jews came because of Israel. Before, they co lived in harmony (relatively) and were overall treated far far better than Christians treated them. There are countless reports of Jews living in the Israel/Palestinian land peacefully with their Muslim neighbours. No ghettos or genocide like in Europe. It is equally ironic that Christians have the same bible as Jews yet they treated them 100x worse than Muslims until 1945. One thing I greatly respect about Islamic civilization is that they had great religious harmony and tolerance compared to Christian dominated Europe. Of course there were problems but in the grand scheme of things there was a big difference between Muslim and Christian countries regarding religious tolerance and treatment of other relgious people. Most Christians would downright burn you if you dared be anything than Christian. Islam countries made you pay a small tax. Things went downhill since 19th century regarding this and now Europe is the religious tolerant one. For centuries it was the opposite.

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israeli-forces-kill-palestinian-child-every-two-days-west-bank How come USA, France, Belgium, Germany etc do not do this to the illegal migrants that live in those countries? I do not see USA shoot migrant childreen with snipers nor Germany put Afghanis in mass scale torture chambers. Immigrants do crimes in those countries, just like the locals, yet both get equal treatment before the law. Can you explain this difference? Since Israel has same values as them according to you.

USA was not a liberal democracy until the civil rights act. I think we have different ideas of a liberal democracy maybe. To me a liberal democracy is a country that treats all humans as equal and does not torture, abuse, rape, murder people even if they are not citizens. Basically a country like Belgium, Sweden, Ireland etc. USA was basically an apartheid until the late 1960s, not liberal. From what I have seen USA treats their illegal refugees 1000000000x better than Israel treats people in the West Bank. Same with France, Sweden, Germany etc. Even though those people are illegally staying in those countries and not citizens.

They consider the West Bank Israel!!! That is the whole issue here. Israel does not recognize Palestine as a soverign country, to them that whole land is basically Israeli land and Palestinians living there are a minority that are not citizens. Minority rights and respect of universal human rights are a cornerstone of a liberal democracy. How come France does not put their illegal refugees in torture chambers? They fed them, rescue them from boats and give them housing. Same with UK, Belgium etc. A Swedish court recently said that deporting illegal refugees back to some of their war torn countries is too inhumane and therefore they will stay in Sweden. It is miles apart in attitude from Israel in the whole view of human rights. So when you talk about the West Bank, it is basically Israeli occupied land and Palestinians living there are minorities that are not citizens of Israel.

Come on Leo. Do you really believe that? Cant you see how they bully and oppress Palestinians which they occupy. A Liberal democracy does not act like that. The demonization and downright Nazi attitude they have towards Palestinians is anything but "liberal". Liberals treat all humans equally, Israel does not. https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell From an israeli newspaper. A "liberal" democracy does not act like this, it finds this behaviour totally unacceptable. Plain and simple. Israel is a democracy in way they organize elections and choose leaders but they do not care about universal human rights. Would not be suprised if Russia treats occupied Ukrainians better than Israel treats Palestinians.

How so? I thought Jews are semites, not Europeans. Israel does not respect human rights or international law like most of the West does in general. So value wise they are worlds apart. Especially with the current Israeli government which is basically fascist. I thought Christians hate Jews more than Muslims due to the Jews being believed to be the ones that betrayed Christ. This is shown in action by the fact that 95% of Jewish oppression came from Christian countries, not by Muslims countries which were much more tolerant of them. But I am not an expert on this issue. That is why I brought up Bernie, he is also Jewish yet does not support Israel. Being a Jew is not an argument. Or you mean most Jews there are very biased while Bernie is less biased? The paradox is that the whole reason USA needs intelligence from Israel is due to the climate that Israel created in the region which involves the USA. USA had no enemies in the Middle East before their support of Israel. If they did not support Israel so much, they would not even need Israeli intelligence since no terrorists would want to bomb the USA. Israel helps USA with the problem Israel itself created for the US. Imagine MC Donalds serving you medicine to combat the obesity that you got from eating MC Donalds food.

@Leo Gura Why is USA still supporting Israel so much? I am not American but if I was, I would want USA to stop supporting Israel so much. All they do is take money from the US and make them look bad for supporting Israel without question. I saw Bernie (he is also Jewish so being Jewish is not an excuse to shamelessly support Israel) has a pretty objective view on the matter. Half of Democrats skipped Netanyahu speech on Congress in 24th of July. So there is a lot of will within the democrats party to change the situation and stance of the US towards Israel. Why dont they act? A first step would be to half all weapon shipments to Israel (perhaps with exception of systems Israel needs purely for self defence). Harris seems pretty liberal person, but here she seems like your typical Zionist conservative. I do not understand.

USA has also invaded countries. Question here is: Why should we live in a world where USA can bully and invade whoever they want while other countries cannot and has the monopoly over it. To be honest in the last 25 years USA has invaded and bombed way more countries than Russia and China (China is still 0 so far). I feel like with a multipolar world countries have other places to run to for protection to avoid bullying or invasions from the big major power. Kind of like when you have different gangs in prison which help you defend from others. So if USA wants to bomb or invade you to advance its interest you can make alliances with Russia or China for protection and perhaps defend yourself from the USA. Or via versa if Russia wants to invade you, then you can get help from USA. If you think any of these big powers acts from anything rather than its selfish ruthless self interest, you are really naive. Nobody acts to do what is right, only what serves them.

Why? I saw some interviews of his regarding foreign policy and I noticed that he tended to be very blunt and not sugar coat things. Basically he said it openly that he will do what serves the US. Meanwhile the usual politican says "we will do what is right" and in actuality they indeed do what serves the US. An honest person is always better than a hypocrite, even if you may disagree with his policies and philosophy. Or did I miss something? I got no clue about his internal affairs to be honest, just saw his position regarding Israel/Ukraine/Taiwan.

At least we have agreement there. Most people want the war to end yet they refuse to end it. Instead they double down by wanting to expand it by invading Lebanon and ultimately Iran. When they could end the Hezbollah rockets firing towards Israel by ending the Gaza war. Could you explain to me how they are still in power given all the protests? By them I mean Bibi and his far right fasicsts. I read that Ben Gvir recently created his own private army that a few times clashed with Israeli authorities. How do people there feel about it? They care a lot or are indifferent? Curious.

Nazis wanted European domination, Israel wants Middle Eastern domination. Which is why they bully the whole region and keep illegally taking land. Anyway, it was a bad comparison and I deleted the post. So ignore this. But since you brought up peace, I gave you a response on peace on another reply.

Recognize Palestine, kick out all the 500.000 illegal settlers and stop the occupation. Oh yes, also actually put in jail soldiers recorded performing rape instead of parading them on tv and protesting for them to leave jail That is the true cost of peace. But Israel does not want to pay it. Hence you get attacked and hated.

Issue is that those attacked were performed all over the country, in every enviroenment, just as Leo said. It creates mass terror throughout the entire population, those pagers often were put in places childreen or random people could have been affected. The psychological factor is also huge, nobody feels safe anywhere. Tomorrow your phone may be blown off too. The point of terrorism is to terrorize the entire population of a country, and Israel did just that. It is more of a psychological issue (also I think hundreds will die and thousands maimed). It is way softer than what they did in Gaza but I feel like this creates mass terror on a huge scale. Do a ceasefire deal, get out the hostages and leave Gaza. Hezbollah will stop firing rockets if that happens. The whole reason Hezbollah is firing those rockets is because Israel insists on bombing Gaza every day. If Israel did a ceasefire deal then both the hostages would be released and Hezbollah would stop firing rockets towards Israel. Israel is seriously shooting itself in the foot with this prolonged never ending war at this point. Even tons of Israelis are against it now. At least until this happened, now I do not know. I fear they will want to retaliate somehow. Lets hope we do not get a full war. Also, before this pager attack Israel was bombing Hezbollah very often, they did a huge strike a few weeks ago attacking their launches sites etc. In general such attacks against key enemy strategic locations with minimum civilian losses is what Israel has done (with some exceptions) and should continue to do if Hezbollah does not stop firing rockets. Although as I said, I think ending the Gaza war will end the Lebanon war as well automatically.

I was scrolling through your Stage Yellow megathread to find good examples of stage yellow for my own personal development and I noticed that you had put Elon Musk there. The post was made in 2019. Do you still stand by the statement that Musk is yellow, given all the stuff that has happened since? He seems to have a ton of orange and some blue in him, given who he allies with and endorses. A yellow person would not post on Twitter how himself, Tate and Trump are saving humanity.

To be frank, I have a friend in Saint Petersburg and he works in academia for a top university. He told me in daily life you do not feel much the corruption, like cops are fair, hospitals, education etc are not much worse or different than the West. I feel like the mafia elements of it are felt more on a high business or governmental level, they do not affect your average person as much. Hence people do not care about it.

Dude, I am talking about the bombing of Yugoslavia to stop the Kosovo genocide unfolding. They had already killed over 9000 civilians in Kosovo and raped 20.000 women. Kicked out 750.000 of them to Albania. It was pure ethnic cleansing which could have led to a full on genocide if NATO had not intervened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War Lastly, to bring up the current war in Gaza, it is not a war against Hamas, it is a war against the ENTIRE Gazan population. Because when you have at its peak 250 children dying a day, a rate higher than that of Auschwitz concentration camp, then of course people will be angry about it. Especially when their phone is filled with videos or pictures of hurt or dead kids. People are sensitive when it comes to that. In Yugoslavia NATO barely killed any children. In Gaza it is close to 17.000 now. That is true, but Israel is not an emotional child, it has responsibility to act professionally and maturely. Please stop with this biased cringe. Nobody in the right mind would say such a thing. It is hard for me to take you seriously anymore if you think that the UN is racist and biased against Isarel.

Me, Raze and others send here dozens of credible articles, testimonies etc to provide such information. Lastly, would you say the UN is biased against Israel? I keep seeing this in forums, comments and even Israeli top politicans.

There was also a huge power difference between NATO and Serbia during the Kosovo war. Also between US and Iraq. Yet you had no near close these numbers. Iraq may have resulted in a lot of deaths but those came after the war was initially over. The actual invasion costed around 4000 civilians (not small but no near the 30.000 or so we have in Gaza). NATO meanwhile in Serbia killed around 500 civilians in their bombing campaign. Israel can show restraint, just because they "can" does not mean they have to. Firstly, Russia considers Ukraine basically part of Russia, they do not respect Ukraine sovereignty. They also see Ukraine government and army as basically Neo Nazis, so to them they are not much different Hamas is to Israel. Secondly, when the majority of people you have killed are women, childreen, elderly, then you cannot call it a war on terrorists anymore. It is a war on civilians. That is true. But it also means that the pool of people you can kill is way larger. Severity is also measured as % of population killed where in Gaza it is much higher than Ukraine. How come then there is case in the international court saying there is plausability that genocide has being going on in Gaza. How come the ICC wanted to issue an arrest warrant against Bibi and the Defense Minister of Israel accusing them of war crimes, intentional bombing of civilians, crimes against humanity, starvation as method of war etc (decision still not finalized). How come every human rights organization is calling out what Israel is doing as cruel and unecessary. If Israel had no other way to conduct this war than how it is conducting it, none of these issues would have been raised. So they are all wrong?

How come the war in Ukraine is so much more restrained and soft compared to Gaza? Civilian casualties in proportion of the population are like 40 times less. And Russia is not even a soft country when it comes to war, they are quite brutal. In Gaza the rate of killing at points was the highest since the Rwandan genocide. When your reference is a genocide, it is not just a war. I would call it a semi genocide. But if you want to use the word "war", then it is a war on women on children since they are the main people that are dying. They have probability had a worse civilian to soldier ratio than Hamas did. If you think it is a standard war, what sources are you using that make you think that? Because every UN and Human rights agency have called it more than a standard war. Not to mention all the doctors that went there and said it was anything they had seen in other conflicts. Ideally in discussions regarding this matter it is good to send sources from trustworthy places, otherwise it is just empty speculation and propaganda parroting. I feel like you are being quite soft on how Israel is doing this war and mostly focus on their propaganda and other stuff when it comes to criticizing which is obviously problematic but a small fish in comparison. The whole outrage regarding Israel (including top world leaders), came from how they are doing this war (and previous wars for that matter), not because they buy off some medias here and there and flood the internet with bots. Just because they have not nuked gaza (but have dropped the equivalence of multiple atomic bombs of it in explosives), does not mean that they cannot do crimes against humanity in other ways. UN official deems kill rates in Gaza highest in the world since Rwandan genocide – Middle East Monitor

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/6/uk-doctor-80-of-gaza-victims-i-treated-were As I have said before, this is clearly a war on childreen, not Hamas. Intention is irrelevant, what matters is results.

What proportion of Israelis society you think would call a soldier who is accused of raping a Palestinian prisoner as a "hero"?

I saw a debate of Israelis where a lawyer (I think was lawyer) said that ANYTHING is legit to be done to enemies of Israel, including sticking a stick up their ass (sodomy). Basically saying torture and rape is fine. Then there were tons of people demonstrate and legit tried to break into a prison where the guy who did the act was being held. Then some people starting calling him a hero, invited him on a tv show where the dude took off his mask. These people are borderline red to me. A society that glorifies rape and torture is red to me. I am not saying most Israel is like this, but these people exist. What do you think about what I said?

If that is the case, who will monitor and occupy the West Bank? Also, who will be the "ally" of the West. Judea to me seems almost a fanatical religious state, not much different from Iran. The liberal Israel I think would get FAR less hate from the rest of the world if it happens. I think most of the hate and criticism comes from the Judea side.