Moksha

I assume you mean Mormon culturally, rather than doctrinally, since there are many Mormon beliefs which are dualistic.

Not if the bot has nothing to say beyond my own thoughts. Would you allow the bot to explode, knowing that it would end your illusory life?

Some of us have asked the question, but people believing that everything but the Self is an illusion still don't answer it. If you really believe that, why are you talking to imaginary people in an imaginary forum on an imaginary day? Are you so convinced that everything is an illusion that you are willing, right now, to put a gun to your imaginary head and pull the trigger?

I agree. Literally, "exist" means "stand out" or be manifested. Existence may or may not be real.

All concepts are bullshit.

You just posted about unbreakable rules. Maybe the mystery of Ultimate reality is one of those rules.

@Thought Art Omazing

I am

The idea that physical reality is an idea is also an idea

Any awakened being will tell you that Truth is the ultimate mystery. We can experience it nonconceptually, but it is impossible to comprehend.

Of course there are other explanations. I can't categorically rule out any possibility. The universe could be riding the back of a turtle, and yet most of us behave as if life is materially real.

I agree that reality exists, regardless of personal belief. Physical reality may or may not exist, regardless of personal belief. In both cases, it doesn't matter what people believe

@commie My only argument, regardless of how you choose to label it, is that material reality seems more plausible than immaterial illusion. Given that ultimate reality is beyond human comprehension, I could be wrong. Still, I'm not planning to step in front of the train today

@commie Since when is reality a strawman? The isness of things speaks for itself. If you are going to claim that everything is an illusion, the burden of proof is on you. I'm happy to admit that I don't know anything, except the one thing that can be known. Talking to someone that is real is sane; talking to someone that is not real is insane. If I am an illusion, why are you wasting your time spinning in insanity? If you are so convinced that everything is an illusion, why do you behave as if everything is real? Are you willing to step in front of a train today, since you know the train is only an illusion?

@Javfly33 You don't have to create a paradigm of reality for it to exist. Whether or not you perceive it, reality is.

Enlightenment is experiential and nonconceptual. It is the only "knowledge" that cannot be an illusion.

@4201 I agree, but it is less plausible that the tree is fake than that it is real. Not that plausibility is ultimate proof of anything. As the philosophers are fond of pointing out, the only thing we know is that we know nothing. Still, people claiming that everything is an illusion don't seem to believe their own claims. Somehow most of them continue eating, suffering, and trying not to die.

Nothing can be ultimately proven. I could just be dreaming about the tree and about the apple and about you, or all of this could be your dream instead. But that possibility seems far less likely than that the material world is real. If you disagree, why are you taking imaginary time to discuss imaginary concepts with imaginary people in the first place?

It's called science

If there wasn't an objective tree, I wouldn't be able to observe it, sit under it, or pluck an apple from its branches. Nor would you be able to do the same, and come back to talk with me about it.

Observation. When a tree falls, it produces measurable sound waves. However, these sound waves don't actually sound like anything. If you are standing there, they travel through your ear canal, toward the organ of Corti, where they interact with hair cells which release neurotransmitter at synapses with the auditory nerve, which sends the information to the auditory cortex, which interprets the information for the first time as a sound. Sound as it is understood by sensation cannot exist without a perceiver.

No, sound is the interpretation your brain makes of the air wave. The same is true for our other senses. When you look at a tree, your brain creates a sensory image that interprets the tree, but is not the tree. And for all we know, your sensory image could be completely different from mine.

@mandyjw An unobserved tree falling in the forest doesn't make a sound because sound is a sense perception. It only becomes a sound when there is a sensor to interpret the air waves. That doesn't mean the tree isn't real. Atoms are real. Space is real. Time is real. Just because they are relative to the perceiver doesn't mean they are unreal. Einstein said that, "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility...The fact that it is comprehensible is a miracle.” From an ultimate perspective though, everything we try to comprehend is a false duality. Real vs. Unreal, Diversity vs. Unity, Time vs. Timeless are all dualistic concepts. That is why ultimate reality is beyond human comprehension.

Enlightenment is not just a realization. It is a purification. Are you free from all attachments and suffering? If not, yoga is your friend.

People have been asking this question for as long as there have been people. Nobody knows the answer.