Vrubel

Good deep point: life is complex and not black and white. Everybody has good and evil inside themselves. And matters often depend on perspective and contex. It's good to stand for the truth of the matter whether Palestinian or Israeli. However, the demonizations and relentless narrative mushing are only fuelling the conflict. Ideally, this whole thing would be moderate Palestinians and Israelis against the extremists within our own Society. But unfortunately, reality is much less rosy and more unromanticly harsh. If Palestinians were stage blue-orange I think they would get along with Israelis much better and see common values. They would also pursue their agenda in a more genuinely productive way. Just being a healthy stage blue (like for example the Kurds), that alone will do away with all the stage red riffraff and footshooting behavior.

They fucked over Gazans most of all, thought their attack definitely did a lot of pain so they can consider that a victory in their savagely twisted mind. Let's say you have a burning hatred of Israelis and really don't care about them but have massive heart and endless compassion towards the Palestinians. Still, I would be so fucking mad at Hamas for fucking my beloved Palestinians over so hard and so unrelenting. Yet instead of this you just created this cult of blaming Israel for everything it does and doesn't do. You essentially hold the Palestinian people to the moral standard of human animals and Israel to an exceptional standard that the world has not yet known. I actually hold the Palestinian nation to a higher standard than this. I have this desperate desire of wanting to respect the Palestinian people because they are the ones whose fate got interwoven with the Jewish people, which actually could be a positive thing and ultimately should be. But we are still very far from that.

No one in Gaza would have died if the hostages weren’t taken in the first place. You don’t fuck with Israelis. They will do anything for their own. Every government has a responsibility to its citizens. Hamas (purposefully) kept those hostages in an exceptionally densely populated area, so it’s on them for putting their civilians at risk. Like, it's obvious that these people die because of Hamas, yet I have to explain, go figure the absurdity. All this is perfectly within integrity. Israel will do anything for life. Hamas will do anything for death. Don’t be a shill for that.

IDF rescued 4 hostages in two different operations! including Noa Argamani. Hopefully, this will pressure Hamas enough to accept a proper deal and not stick to its delusions and false hope of winning. Fuck Hamas, Fuck the Haters and Fuck all the Shills! (sorry, a bit emotional now).

I understand both right-wing and left-wing. I only don’t respect the extreme edges. Like the Ben Gvir types or the radicalized left Israeli making good money by being a total shill to her enemies. But they are very rare, generally speaking, it’s very apparent to me how the Israeli left wing is more mature/developed than the Western version because Israelis tend to be in touch with certain realities on the ground and cannot afford to be excessively naive or have some cringe leftwing paradigms that are detached from reality. Also, they don’t overlook the inherent beauty and goodness of Israel. Of course, an outsider can be more prone to demonization and being blindly dogmatic. Generally speaking, Israelis have no choice but to serve in their army. I am not in a position to judge because I have not served myself. I always thought of myself as lucky but now I regret it in a sense because defending your country whether in combat or non-combat roles is important and you also simply learn valuable life skills that will greatly benefit the rest of your life. But I have no problem with the conscious objector here and there, still, though I have more respect for the people doing the fighting and working on Israel's defense. I once got in touch with a nerdy orthodox Jewish girl living in Europe and she was some kind of very advanced computer programmer. Like she was working with the most elite cutting-edge technology. Her goal was to move to Israel and work there on the missile defense systems in the country. Now that shit I have massive respect for. For me, that also constitutes the "best of the best" of humanity.

Being in Tel Aviv at this time with all the hostage posters and activism is incredibly powerful and for me feels like being part of history. I was yesterday at Tel Aviv University and I saw both Arab and Jewish student-soldiers casually carrying big guns around their hips. Both together to defend their country and society against true genocidal savages. These students don’t take their highly functioning democratic society for granted. Many people like for example a good portion of secular Iranians and even some media personalities of Middle Eastern origin advocate for Israel exactly because they’re intimately familiar with what I said above. Not everybody is building cultish temples for Palestinian victimization and in effect viewing them like animals incapable of any responsibility. Integrating healthy stage blue on which yours and every other functioning society is built and genuinely understanding Israel's POV doesn't make you less woke but it does make you less of a woke idiot(; @Nivsch It was great meeting you! Whenever I can I intently read your posts. Your genuine and exceptionally principled manner always shines through. It was wonderful for me to get to know the man behind the words. You have a friend for life!

You just willfully misunderstand me. So there is no point continuing. your hippie girlfriend is not of the matter here. Like my previous quote from the gulag archipelago nobody is a100% pure. Still some people are just genuinely good people and the best that humanity has to offer. For example I view “Navalny Russians” or secular Iranians in the same light. These people are the best and command respect and recognition.

Dude.. most were left hippies. (Not that it should matter) people are carefree by nature. its an insight I made by observing people here both Arabs and Jews

How disgusting and disrespectful. Your description is unfair and demonizing beyond reason.

The understandable thing to say just after 7/10. The victims were definitely sons of light, the best of what humanity has to offer. Referring to Hamas and by extension, the boastful cheering crowds as human animals is also perfectly understandable. Also, keep in mind that intense anger will come inevitably with going through the stages of grief after such an attack and the ongoing hostage horror show. There is both an emotional component here and a sober realization of what we are dealing with here. Don't be so set against Israel you overlook both the apparent and the nuance: "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either—but right through every human heart—and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. And even in the best of all hearts, there remains... an unuprooted small corner of evil." "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago".

The self-righteous pettiness… notice how none of the things you listed will bring anything concrete to the situation on the ground. If you come to Israel you’ll see the truth and beauty shine through and why so many people support us. You're invited. if you don't come that’s okay too. Being a misunderstood people is nothing new for Israelis and Jews. This only makes us stronger this time. Nothing more romantic

Justice straight from the source, no Mossad middleman was needed here.

So occupation is a logical response to terror and genocidal threat! You're acting as if this war with Hamas will not feed anything positive and productive to peace and security in the long run but wouldn't it be more honest to say that you don't know?

What!? A bad apple!? you're out of your mind unreasonable and in denial

Well yeah there is difference between blowing up a police station or governing headquarters and calling your mom to boast you killed a family with your bare hands Stop glorifying Palestinian victimization to the point of being shill and start glorifying proper society building and basic sanity. What would be true about your statement is that any society would react like Israel faced with the same conditions. That would be true because Israel is already one of the more developed countries. So most countries would be far worse.

I can confidently put a hard NO on that. I have seen your sources. I get it. Still not the same by a looooong shot. The extremist wedding (your most depraved example) with the shameful chanting was an enormous scandal in Israel some years back and people were arrested. However, how bad that was it's not the same as cheering for actual abused young women being paraded. Those who pamper the Palestinians are in denial about that or play games to victimize them and blame it on Israel because apparently, that constitutes thorough intelligence. Yes, Israel as a national identity needs to exclude Palestinians because it's not a frivolous thing to flood your country with stage-red people who have all different agendas and are not keen on compromising or dropping their corruption. Just look at Lebanon which used to be a high-functioning stage blue and orange-Christian country that got arm-wrestled and outpopulated by Arabs. The Lebanese Shia for example are more interested in doing the bidding of Iran rather than in looking after their country's best interest as a whole. They will have no qualms about destroying their own country and society if Iran chooses to use them to go to war. The reason we have this war is because Hamas sees their women as nothing and their children as replaceable. Despite everything it still holds true that Israel, even the right-wing government cares WAY more for the civilians of Gaza than Hamas. And yet for you, Israel and Hamas are the same, how laughable and perverse.

Only Palestinians are excluded because they do, celebrate and are proud of horrendous animalistic terrorism. So people don't feel like integrating with them but rather something to defend against. Israel is an extreme melting pot. Also non-Jews like many Arabs, Bedouins, Druze and Russians and Ukrainians also get fully integrated. It's absolutely crucial that a society has its nose in the same direction. In principle, I have no problem with the one-state idea solution. Practically though It's just so obviously impossible with Palestinians. So two states is the next best thing.

No it isn't. They committed a horrendous attack and now it's war. No surprise here. How convenient to relieve Hamas of all responsibility. Hamas is the biggest evil here and it needs to be removed from power. It's absolutely their fault for attacking and throwing their own people under the bus at a time when this government is in power. More left or centrist governments would have been more mild but nonetheless, people would shout genocide over any Israeli action no matter how big or small. That's part of the blind smear campaign. Don't be blind to the massive hypocrisy and blatant Hamas support from the beastly corrupt ruling South Africa party that turned their country into a wildly unsafe society. I have seen how gaslighty and ugly people behave toward Israelis. People like Israelis are the most genuine and decent people any society can wish for. Maybe that's why some people have an anti-Israel shadow. Israelis absolutely have a legitimate perspective that people willfully ignore as to maintain their illusion of virtue signaling-righteousness and edgy intelligence. The only reason people have milded down here is because of me and @Nivsch making powerful points. Still people lash out from time to time. Israel is integrating into the region by becoming more careful and conservative. I am not going to be whiny about that after 7/10. Notice your constant mindless extrapolating and your mushy way of filling in unknown factors. The survival conditions are tough here and require more conservative values to stick it out. Hippie liberal Israelis got massacred on 7/10 while (moderate) settlers carry weapons, work hard, do military service and have a lots of children. These are not my values but the values of the Middle East because people here don't fuck around and aren't forgiving to mistakes. Having said that, people here are incredible in the way they treat each other and help each other out. It's like family. I am not saying this as a sentimental glorification but that’s what the dynamic of unprecedented openness, social freedom, the support and being there for each other reminds me most of. No Hamas was created because its terrorist predecessor, the PLO signed agreements with Israel and became a legitimate party. Hamas was there to fill in the niche of extremism again. Terrorism was always there among the Arab society. Furthermore, in the whole region even where there are no Jews involved! so what does that tell you?

The point still stands, I wrote: Extreme rightwing pipe dreams don't translate into realities in democracies like Israel. It's not truthful to be so set against Israel, that you would crawl into Ben Gvirs head while he is sleeping, fish out his extremist wet dream and stick that on the reality of Israel and Palestinian oppression. Palestinian "oppression" is in reaction to their terror, footshooting and rejection of peace offers. This is their half of the vicious cycle. Again: Moshe Dayan's policy as soon as he took over the West Bank from the Jordanians was for maximum freedom and economic flourishing, this was the starting point of the vicious cycle when the more broader Arab-Israeli conflict gradually merged further into the more narrow Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestinians are native to the land just like Jews but don't act as if they had a state where they had the power and that the Jews were somehow at their mercy and they benevolently sheltered them. No, identity-wise the Arabs were simply Arabs even identifying as Syrians who took on the Palestinian identity only in opposition to modern Zionism which developed their own communities in the land independently, buying land in legal ways. This was the very start of Arab Israeli tensions in the beginning of the 20th century, maybe even the late 19th century.

A bit of a stretch. Extreme rightwing pipe dreams don't translate into realities in democracies like Israel. If that were the case illegal Mexicans would have been entirely cleansed in the US. A country like Pakistan can for example in a heartbeat expel 100 000's Afghan refugees and nobody in the world will complain. What does it tell you that even if the most rightwing Israeli government in its history cannot move the Palestinian population away. Yes, the war is horrible but the fact that there is a war is understandable and unavoidable after 7/10 and the hostages. Even so, the most crucial fact is that Palestinians will remain on their land because Egypt nor anyone else wants to take them in (for maybe understandable reasons, no judgment). Yes, when Israel took over the West Bank from Jordan their policy was for maximum freedom but that changed over time with terror acts. This is the vicious cycle being enacted.This policy of maximum freedom was enacted by Moshe Dayan to show Arabs they can have free and prosperous lives with Israel. And in a sense they did. Their standard of living improved which also made their birthrate fall but not as result of a bad faith measure. To this day West Bank Palestinians have materially better lives than Jordan Palestinians and I am not even talking about the Palestinians in other Arab countries that don't have any rights at all. I am currently in Israel, half of my town is basically Arab and despite everything that is going on, life is peaceful and relations are cordial. Arabs can definitely appreciate stability and prosperity. I was always for two states but it came to me that maybe it's better if Israel annexed the West Bank and gives full rights to the Palestinians there making them Israeli citizens perhaps even with limited sovereignty on top of that. But of course this is not without its issues also. Demographics do allow for this but maybe the risk of having a 5th column in society can be a serious risk. As for Gaza. They are (now was) already unoccupied and can be a sovereign Palestinian free-state with security guarantees from Egypt.

Yes, I'm based in Europe, In a small country, so crossing the border to enjoy a city trip or holiday is very easy. After finishing my studies I backpacked for three months in South America. Fell in love and went back to the continent whenever I could.

@Nivsch Be wary to not get dragged into needless drama. Some people have fragile psyches others just lash out for the sake of it. Loud as the hivemind is we have friends in the West. Decent Upstanding people, like Joe Biden.

"Traditional" road, city and sightseeing trips have their value, they definitely can be meaningful and a lot of fun. But I recommend most to go to places where you can experience life and nature at its rawest. So no luxuries that serve as a barrier between you and the elements. The memories of time spent in those wild places will always stay with you the most vividly.

Holland Belgium France Germany Poland Russia Ukraine Czechia Estonia Finland Sweden Denmark England & Scotland Spain Portugal Italy Greece Croatia Austria Switzerland Luxembourg Monaco Turkey Israel & Palestine Jordan Suriname Brazil Argentina Uruguay Peru Ecuador Colombia Panama United States Canada Indonesia Thailand Hong Kong Next week 39 as I'll be adding Serbia, from there also going to Israel again. Special shout out to Suriname. Had some of the most memorable times of my life in that country.

Dude, we are talking about global propaganda. Obviously, Israel is filled with Israelis who love their country.