Vrubel

So why are there still millions of Palestinians on their land? Arabs in every corner of Israel and sprawling all over the West Bank? The Nakba is real but it's not the full story.

@Nivsch Do you notice that these people cannot say: "Yes, 7/10 was absolutely inexcusable, an absolute vile display of animalistic savagery. I acknowledge the scale and variety of depraved crimes committed on that day and integrate that reality with my opinions and worldview." They always act slippery and do false equivalencies on the issue as if fully acknowledging the truth of 7/10 would shatter their worldview.

It's true that we had to show a certain "excellence" in survival and couldn't afford to fall into riffraff but even so, we got the Holocaust because we didn't have our state and army. You don’t bother calling out the more blatant anti-semites among your ranks so this tells me enough. You don't have to but spare me then your pretense of caring about the Jewish people. If you truly cared about Jews you would at the very least have a healthy respect and appreciation for Israel. Reflecting your logic back: I only like Arabs when they share or confirm my specific worldview and are not of the Palestinian identity.

Because of all the shit tone of emotional manipulation, total hypocrisy and total wiping under the rug of Israel's POV. Many people tend to be more supportive of Israel because they see the world for what it is: You cannot start a war with a nation in the most horrific and deprived way possible and expect they’ll go easy on you. Whenever in history did that occur? Can you imagine Jews doing something like that when they were in exile or some Middle Eastern minority doing it against Arabs? Israel is now reacting as any Western nation would according to the spirit of the time. And I get it, some healthy idealism and good-hearted naivete on the issue are commendable. However, what I see is a highly unreasonable smear campaign that goes way beyond all nuance and acts totally obnoxious and downright hostile - absolutely ungrounded from any unhypocritical and decent principles or often even basic knowledge. The polarizing nature of this behavior has turned this complex issue into a simplified culture war issue.

@Hatfort Let's reflect your logic back: I'm totally fine with Arabs in the world except for Israel and let us mention my recognition to the Green Prince and many other Arabs who recognize the barbarity that has been happening by Palestinians for the last 70 years (even 100 years) because it's not easy to go against the grind of your own people.

Depends on how you define Zionism. Many of the haters use it as a cartoonish demonization without even remotely attempting to grasp what it truly is. I wrote enough to educate you on the issue. You’ll never convince Israelis that their people are not worth fighting for. The more they get threatened the less compromising and trusting of others they'll get. Securing the nation/people, that's the Israeli national mission and sense of purpose that all Israelis take part in that precedes your simplistic narratives of evil white colonialist Zionist ethnostate against a poor innocent Palestinians. Which is so absolutely laughable and detached from reality.

I made my case in temporal terms. Israelis don't need to and rarely do use terms such as "chosen" or "promised land" to make their case. It's just another hook that anti-Israel people latch onto and extrapolate from and hyperbolize. I've never met a Jew in my life who thinks of himself as chosen and therefore superior. I am sure some extremist settlers do and it's a shame that these are the people who often live closest to Palestinians in the West Bank but the overwhelming majority of Israelis aren't as cartoonishly zealous as you think. Religious Jews think of themselves as chosen because they believe they are chosen by God to study the Torah, that's it. you can extrapolate and indulge in your anti-Israel propaganda but buried beneath that are the legitimate and obviously understandable motivations and concerns of Israelis. ...But I do feel very lucky and blessed that I am Jewish. But that's another thing. As a kid, I do remember blissfully thinking to myself that of all the people on this earth - just think of the billions of Chinse, Indians and Africans - I just happened to be born a Jew. I don't think Jews are better than anyone in any fundamental sense but I do think Jews make for high-quality societies and generally greatly uphold the culture of any place they live in.

Damn.. that tells me more about you. Learn to be a bit more passionate, less cynical and judgemental I guess. I can describe Israel with a whole lot of words but boring definitely not one of them. Life is just so much more raw in Israel. I would say living in W. Europe can be comparatively boring. I definitely understand why, it's absolutely stunning. I also like the Yarkon Park gardens and the wild Jackals running around there.

No love letter to you The same message but only the dry truth without the passion: The Zionist movement was primarily secular, rooted in the historical connection of the Jewish people to the land. Consequently, Israel was founded on Western democratic values. Theodor Herzl, a pivotal figure in the Zionist movement, sought to ensure the survival and well-being of the Jewish people. Initially, he believed that full integration into liberal European societies was the answer. However, his perspective shifted after the Dreyfus Affair, which exposed deep-seated anti-Semitism in France, then considered one of the most liberal nations. Learn more about the Dreyfus Affair. Understanding Zionism, Jewish identity, and Israeli society can be challenging due to their historically unique nature. Israel's distinctiveness often defies common comparisons, making it difficult to fully grasp from an external viewpoint. Courtesy of Chatgtp

The whole Zionist movement was secular, the land is also Jewish by history after all. That's also why Israel is built on Western democratic values. The beauty is that Theodor Herzl wasn't being blindly ideological and dogmatic. He wanted what was best to ensure the survival, resilience and well-being of the Jewish people. He was first convinced that the answer was full integration into liberal European societies but changed his mind after witnessing the Dreyfus Affair where the most liberal nation on earth at the time, France, experienced a violent outburst of anti-semitism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair Zionism, Jews and Israel and its society is very hard to understand for many people because it's very historically exceptional and an outlier in many ways. I've traveled all over the world but there is truly no place like Israel, not even close. It's absolutely laughable how people so confidently claim they know best on the issue. @Nivsch Truly nothing like a Tel Aviv sunset(;

Sure, no problem!

I get it but you still live life as a human being in a certain reality. It can be highly counterproductive and not worth it to get too much on your high horse on certain aspects pertaining to identity. First cultural affiliation and inter-human click/deep tacit understanding based on shared backgrounds and values, however subjective is a very real thing that you feel and seek. Second outside people will always define you and target you purely based on identity anyway. I remember early on in the thread some of the “brainwashed” pro-Palestine's had a moment of epiphany: “like damn… there are Israelis here and they make reasonable points and aren’t total monsters.” Also too much relaxing of national identity is a source for a lot of the debasing that is happening in Western society. People aren’t connected to community and country anymore. Not only is this a form of “spiritual poverty” it leads to bad policy were they voluntarily in goodwill but naively set their country on a path to total cultural replacement. I am talking about low birth rate and unchecked immigration. For most people life is so exceptionally safe at this time in human history under the relative but notable benevolence of the Western world order that people take totally for granted the forces that guard and enforced that peace in the first place.

It depends, I don't mind in principle though the question then still remains how well will we work together and have our noses in the same direction as one state. Scotland and England work relatively well, they have separate sovereignty but are still in a larger overarching union as equals, even so Scotland wants more and more to become fully independent. Bosnia is dysfunctional but Belgium is a bit better though they have some tension between the Flemish and Walloon that might escalate. It's generally not good when people identify more with the subgroup than the overarching state. So even with high development factoring in, two states might still be the better option. The best and most functional union example is how the North and South were (forcefully) kept together resulting in a more powerful United States. I am all for preserving the Jewish nation, I might even say this is my biggest attachment in this life and why I support Israel so much. But I don't really care about the "purity" of the Jewish people. Like I said earlier with the Russians in Israel, they came to the land and passionately embraced their Israeli identity despite not always being (fully) Jewish. I love that Jews are such a mix of East and West and also some non-Jews. Too much inbreeding is bad. Personally, I want to marry, have children and move to Israel with someone from a Russian (Jewish) cultural background. Starting open-mined and after some experience, I just came to the conclusion that I fit best with people with a similar background to myself. It's easier to love and deeply care for people when they're of your blood

We always had and always will face unreasonable obsession and deceitful smear campaigns no matter what we do or don't do. That's clear as daylight but this is not the point. Haters in the worst case might blatantly support our human-animal enemies and in "better" cases equate us to them. The fact remains we are on a whole different dimension in terms of decency, humanity and values. It's obvious that this truth will be upheld even if it doesn't matter to our haters. A very early memory I have of Israel as a child was seeing Arab people at the swimming pool and thinking to myself: "Wow, they can be with us so freely and carefree yet If I go into their area in the territories they'll murder and gut me". And that's true to a large degree. So I remember laying down on the bed and all blissed out at how much more decent and upright we are than our enemies. Of course, I grew up and learned all the nuances but still, it has not changed that Western democratic values are worth idealizing if we care about peace and high-quality society. We need to separate like I described to you. But Israeli Arabs definitely have to stay in Israel because that's what they deeply want and it's "unconstitutional" to transfer them. Likewise, I think it will satisfy (moderate) Israeli settlers if they can continue to live in their biblical heartland even if it is under Palestinian sovereignty. But yes, Israel, the Jewish state has to be majority Jewish there was never a question of doubt about that. Like if the Palestinians were a super advanced people we could start contemplating one state but the reality is that they are extremely low so it's not worth exploring that option unless you want to turn Israel into a dysfunctional mess worse than Lebanon.

You're going too far on some of the issues here. The beauty of Israel is that it's the existential lifeline of the Jewish people and we will always fiercely defend our country but at the same time we uphold standards very few other nations would if faced with the same situation. Our enemies are the lowest of humanity, truly unthinking savages but we have a covenant with God Arabs also have the right to live on the land, the issue is about in what form of sovereignty (as their deep stage-red nature is deeply problematic as it's impossible to integrate or to be trusted with a full-fledged state). Ultimately compromises have to come from both sides. I think two compromises the Palestinians can't get around anymore are the acceptance of a Jewish minority within their state who will continue to live there under heavy security and restricted freedom much like white people currently live in South Africa. And two, that (apart from a small Palestinian internal security force), Israel will be responsible for the military defense of all of the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River. Compromises Israel can make include recognizing the Nakba and financial support to lift their economy to a new class. Either way, the two economies will be deeply integrated and both sides have to learn to live together without demonization. I am only speaking about peace with West Bank here, honestly, Gaza is too fucked to be included in anything fruitful and co-existence oriented. Even the Egyptians don't trust their guts and blockade them so let alone the Israelis.

To be clear I am glad and proud that Israel is affiliated with the West and is held to account to the standards of a post-WW2 Western world order. Which gifted the world its most peaceful and prosperous era since the beginning of human history. Be wary of getting too much on your high horse on this issue as the forces you’re in effect allying with are much darker than the West, Israel or even the “Zionist” bogeyman. I think you're already a decently principled person and you have the right to your opinions, it's just that your particular worldview has made you vulnerable to emotional manipulation, being weak and used by people much less idealist and gentle than you. Sorry if it sounds harsh what I said in my previous post but it’s true if you look honestly and holistically at how the world works. I recommend you read my post again and try to integrate it as best you can.

What's sustaining the Palestinians is the relative advancement and level-headedness of Israel and its allies in a post-WW2 Western world order. What sustains Hamas is the hate-filled irrational blatantly self-defeating unconditional Pampering of the Palestinians and demonizing of Israel for absolutely everything it does and doesn't do. This is feeding royally into the mindset of Hamas leaders comfortably in their tunnels not giving a shit about their own (civilian) deaths. I think the Biden proposal was reasonably "fair" and a decent "compromise". Israel agreed on the outline but Hamas purposefully made some outrageously unreasonable demands for they still feel so comfortable. This sadly means a continuation of this war and human suffering. The whole spiel of Hamas is to act enthusiastically, to give false hope at the start and then later to add in some of their outrageous demands to torpedo the deal. Of course, all this while gaslighting Israel as the useful idiot eagerly will play along.

What about Yemen and literally all the countless conflicts and wars involving Muslims. Oh wait... no Jews involved. Never mind. Give Hamas some credit for this show. Don't be a useful idiot for them. The Irony is that without the unconditional pampering of Palestinians by the hivemind movement. This war would have never started or ended quickly with much less Palestinian suffering and death.

@Merkabah Star Most of the world is watching footage of pro-Palestine Karens allied with Islamists taking over European squares acting all obnoxious and hostile turning this complex geopolitical issue into a culture war issue and acting surprised why the (far) right suddenly surged in popularity. It's a sad fact that this pro-plasticine movement should be there for the lives and well-being of Palestinians but instead, it's a useful pressure tool used by Hamas to continue to set its unreasonable demands in the hostage negotiations. So I am afraid this war will continue on once again.

Oke, in all fairness you might disagree with my view and opinions but I know Israelis better than you do. I understand Israeli values, legitimate concerns and mentality. Yet you keep absolutely denying all the things that I say like a mule... Predictable. If you feel comfortable with your narrative of blaming Israel for absolutely everything, fine stick with that. What I like and deeply respect about the former Soviet Union immigrants is that despite they got a little shit for not being (fully) Jewish. They didn’t whine about it, took on the Israeli values and identity and massively uplifted the country in terms of culture, technology and economy. That deserves deep respect. There used to be a lot of Jews in Russia and a lot of mixing during the communist era. It’s actually quite mind-blowing to consider that a good chunk of ordinary Russians living today in Moscow or St Petersburg have Jewish ancestry or a family connection to Israel. I dated “random” Russian girls in Europe who told me they either had a Jewish grandparent or family living in Israel. My family also has a fully Jewish branch and a Russian one. The paradox of Jewish assimilation is that it both increases and decreases the world Jewish population at the same time haha

Israel wants security above all. There is currently no trust for a Palestinian state. Anyone objective would see that. You can't really blame Israelis for this, who historically have been desperate for peace since day one with some serious left-wing movements dominating the country at times before gradually turning more conservative, and especially now, more careful. Who is to say that Palestine won't turn into Hamastan in no time? I mean it's not like oilless Arab countries have a good track record of peace and stability. It's absolutely out of the question that a Palestinian state can be militarized apart from a security force to keep the armed riffraff groups in check so they won't organize themselves into full-fledged and well-funded terrorist organizations just like Israel is doing now by means of "occupation." War and reality work a certain way and I understand that, or at least I have a deep understanding for Israel's POV and the historic Jewish POV. Ideally, there would not have been any problems in the first place and we would all skip carefree on flowering meadows. But that's not this world, just look at the entirety of human history. Yes, after WW2 there was some serious advancement of Human peace but even that might be more shaky than we have assumed.

Interesting stuff, I didn't know much of it. Oke, so Ethiopian Jews are not a rediscovered lost tribe but just "regular Jews" like you and me who went south into Africa. And what about those people from the far east of India I sometimes see in Israel?

Israel’s reverence for life is exactly what terrorists see as Israel’s biggest weakness and seek to exploit. They say it themselves "We love death as much as the Jews love life". This is also where Netanyahu bases the "Sons of Light vs the Sons of Darkness" on, (what he said one time directly after the 7/10 attack). It's a complex situation with a lot of nuances but in essence, Israelis cheer when hostages are rescued and they cheer when they take them unthinking of the consequences for themselves or their loved ones. Maybe I and most "normal" Israelis would give in more to Hamas blackmailing and would have made a deal already but Netanyahu is not you or me. I know Netanyahu, he is steadfast and not one that easily gives in. As much as I dislike him because of his personal politicking that is intertwined with all this, there is definitely something to be said for his no-bullshit hard-nosed approach.

You mean Pashtuns, the Taliban folk? Are they our lost brothers? haha maybe it's better if we exclude them from Israel for the time being Aren't the Ethiopians and those Indian people part of the lost tribes? And what's the difference between a "mainstream Jew" or one belonging to a lost tribe? Maybe they're integrated together and the distinction is now impossible to make. Or assimilated with other non-Jewish peoples so deeply that it's futile to seek for them. I know that some modern Assyrians have very Jewish-sounding names and their language is very similar to Hebrew. Maybe some lost tribe there. Dude, you're not going to win that argument, just look how they develop their bomb shelters, cutting-edge missile defense and Merkava tanks that are the best in the world on the metric of crew survivability. Being a small nation and Holocaust trauma also plays a role here. I think it's better if you stick to how pitiful the Palestinians are and how it's none of their responsibility and all on Israel.

I kinda like the name Judea too. Judea would have been more logical as it is the name on which the word jew is based on. Also, the somewhat autonomous Roman province of Judea was the last time a Jewish political entity on that land existed before being renamed to Syria-Palestina by the Romans to spite the Jews. Naming the country Judea again would have been very historically poetic and symbolically fitting.