Osaid

Isn't that what the Google AI result is parsing from? Quite a few sources seem to cite the need for authoritarian tactics and hierarchies. After doing a deeper dive, it seems it's a point of contention for scholars and not all of them agree with that, but some do. IMO that's the only useful or practical definition, though. That being said, it seems like the definition is not as objective as the video made it out to be. I don't think the cult video is doing him any favors, though. I'm the only one who even seems to be bringing up the more specific criteria. What seems to happen is that Leo will make a video on epistemology and everyone will think that means he's immune to bad epistemology. This goes for anything he covers. He makes a video on cults, so that means he can't be susceptible to making one. This kind of logic. There is this prevalent idea that he has conquered or perfected all the topics he has covered, probably because of the "I'm the most conscious of all time" rhetoric or the "I'm the number one on epistemology" rhetoric he spews all the time. Which is pretty ironic, but yeah. There is this kind of sidestepping going on that derails from Leo's behaviours and instead tries to point at how generous and considerate he is for keeping this thread open and stuff like that lol.

Yeah. If it's not a cult, then it's pretty close to one. And of course, things can evolve.

The idea that you are moving your body is actually the same as the idea that something else is moving your body. The terror isn't of the body, it's the notion of something else. Letting go of the self would just be letting go of the notion entirely. The vacuum of doership doesn't need to be filled, just like Santa's position at his factory doesn't have to be filled when you realize he isn't there. The whole belief in the factory goes with it, just like doership.

I remember. I think it was more like: "But God, everyone is gonna call me a narcissist for saying this stuff!" God: "Yes, that's right. God is the ultimate narcissist because it loves itself unconditionally." Found it: I guess even "God" agrees with us, GG.

Leo's cult psychology video is actually good. It's just that he has started to show a lot of the cult dynamics mentioned in the video. It's a result of the narcissism. The cult structure spawns from the narcissism of the leader. Leo mistakes his narcissism as a form of spirituality, so from his POV he's just being honest and blunt about his spiritual experience where he realized he's the most conscious person to ever exist. Obviously a belief like that would spawn cult dynamics. I imagine it would blindside him if he analyzed the behavior from a cult standpoint and realized it was very similar to a cult leader, since from his point of view it was just him doing "honest spirituality and epistemology". That being said, it seems rare that people take this kind of stuff seriously unless they've been in a cult themselves or gone out of their way to study it. The idea of a cult seems outlandish to normal people because it seems like something from cartoons or movies. For them they can just go "well Leo loves epistemology and made a video on cults so it's impossible" and then they call it a day.

Yes, that is the whole point. "More truth" is still interpretation. It's not about ignoring the structure, it's about seeing the entirety of it. In order to see the entirety you cannot distinguish anything.

Totally. Psychedelics can become a red herring because of all the crazy experiences that can happen. Humans imagine all sorts of crazy things from a sober state, imagine what they would imagine from a psychedelic experience, lol. That's interesting. Yeah some teachers like to talk about steps and phases, which is fine I guess. It's a different way of communicating it. From my POV, enlightenment doesn't come and go. Ideas about yourself do, since they are based on you moving through time. Therefore, if you stabilize yourself in the timeless, then it becomes obvious that you don't come and go either, and therein you "merge with it". But it's not like anything about you changes. You simply had temporal ideas about yourself which were seen to be fleeting, and then you realize you were what was always present. Yeah, I would say it's alive in the sense that everything is recognized to be completely new or undefined. There is a sense of freedom in that. So instead of "ugh I've experienced this so many times", it's more like "wow I'm experiencing this". Everything is spontaneous, in truth. Choice makes it seem like there is another reality to choose from, but this is the only reality which is ever experienced. Choice is a conceptualization of what is happening, often for communication. Ultimately, it literally doesn't matter whether you think you chose something or not. It doesn't change anything at all. The present moment is that free.

The actual quote is quite poignant. "The day you teach the child the name of the bird, the child will never see that bird again" - JK

Yeah. Judgment is a belief, whereas reality isn't.

Agreed. Leo conflates materialism with science.

I see, that's pretty cool. I was thinking you might have intuitively reinvented some form of yoga through sheer will or something. I don't know for sure what kind of energy you're experiencing, and I don't personally have experience with anything I would call kundalini-related, but I do have my ideas about it. I think it's similar to what I said about being sick, but in reverse. There can be profound energetic states which make it more obvious that the present is all there is, because they change your physiological or energetic function in some way. This can also naturally shift the sense of identity. If a sick person is busy contemplating death, then someone who is in some kind of special energetic state might think "wow it's so obvious that death isn't real because of how I feel or perceive things right now". This commonly happens with psychedelics too. As a more extreme example, if someone took some psychedelics and entered a state where their body disappeared, then it would be very hard to keep up the identity which says "I am the body". But, ultimately the destination for any seeker is the same. There comes a point where there isn't any more "depth" because all is realized to be timeless. This ends the separate self that always desires to seek more. When it comes to enlightenment, it is a very specific realization into the timeless nature of experience, although it often gets conflated with all sorts of different experiential content. Since enlightenment is timeless, it doesn't actually change or evolve over time, and in that sense it gets deemed as "absolutely true". Which is also why I say it's all ultimately towards the same destination. In that sense, you do reach a point where there is no further "depth". It's more like "fullness". That reminds me of something I also noticed with my focus. If there is some quality of experience which isn't desirable, you can always ask "is there any aspect of experience which doesn't have this quality?", and then when you move your attention there it does seem to make the other quality actually move out of focus. I think this also naturally happens when we get distracted or go into flow state or listen to music.

IMO, at the very least, there has to be an authoritarian element, not just "strange beliefs". I spoke a more strict definition before, but I wont repeat that just to keep things more loose for everyone. There is also a useful distinction we can make between cult dynamics and an actual cult. Cult dynamics can exist in lots of different areas of society without belonging to a full-blown cult. One dynamic wouldn't make for a cult, but if a lot of them co-existed together, then that could reasonably be defined as a cult. This is similar to how the DSM-5 diagnoses disorders like BPD and NPD. One BPD trait doesn't make you BPD, but enough of them together does. In my opinion, the deciding factor comes down to whether Actualized.org is being authoritarian or not, and to what degree. At the very least, there are definitely quite a few cult dynamics at play already. It has also come to my attention that I can't speak for everyone on the forum. Maybe Leo is DMing people things I don't know about. This made me realize how important it is for other members to speak up too, and also the fact that it might not be possible for me to decide on my own whether it is or isn't a cult based on my current information. Here are some Google AI results which I think are pretty accurate:

Space is being made for a more aligned reality. There is nothing wrong with contemplating what happened. It's a natural "clearing" or "purging". The contemplation is for getting clear on what you personally want for yourself.

Based Ramana

Seeing and seen is already a duality. I don't need to add a difference, because you've already made one.

No, it's none of those things.

Actually it's not logical at all. It's more like magic. You're a magician. Things aren't conscious. If all finite things are included, then there is no actual observable independent finite thing. It's like a painting, it includes all of its parts. You can see a chair and a table, but you can't say that seeing is a chair or a table. Similarly...consciousness!

Non-dual simply means "not-two". Therein, non-duality and duality isn't actually the same as non-duality. Because there's two. Infinite and finite isn't actually the same as infinite. Because there's two. So, in actuality... Finite and infinite is still finite. Non-duality and duality is still duality. Indeed, there can only be "one". The eternal nature of reality. So-called "God". Ineffable and undefinable. This "one" is not a property of a separate thing, like a person, or a person who is conscious. Because it is timeless, and therein, "already the case". You can't become it, because you already are it. It's literally all there is. Simply called, the present moment. It includes all, and therein, it cannot be said to be any of what it includes. Such is the non-dual nature of "it". If there is a consciousness which is the only thing, it wouldn't be the most conscious thing in the universe. It wouldn't even be in the universe, and it wouldn't even be a thing.

It actually really does. I think this has been exemplified many times before. For example, if you haven't taken any psychedelics, you will be hit with the "I'm more conscious than you, therefore what you say doesn't matter". Leo certainly believes that he has proof. Emphasis on belief. Because it is a belief. The notion of consciousness becoming conscious of a lower consciousness is completely contradictory and laughable. An entire stance built on duality, while pretending to be non-dual. But what would happen if someone believed? Control. Isolation. Spiritual hierarchies. Cult dynamics. Narcissism.

The reason doesn't really matter. What matters is what he actually ends up doing or conveying. Structure over content. He might say it's "to awaken you", or maybe he does want to control you, but it does not matter. At the end of the day, what he said doesn't change. The truth is that Leo has a narcissistic view on spirituality which forces him to impose his viewpoints and threaten you in strange ways. The idea that someone can be as conscious as him or more conscious than him is threatening to his whole model he has created around consciousness. That's a great question. First of all, it is entirely possible to attempt to communicate what someone doesn't understand without engaging in cult dynamics. This is what enlightened teachers have been doing across history, and it's how the term "enlightenment" started to propagate. Look at Ramana Maharshi, Jiddu Krishnamurti, etc. You can consider that a teacher might know something you don't, but if you were versed on cult dynamics/narcissism, or if you were simply honest and authentic to your own experience, you would immediately sense when someone is trying to manipulate you or put you in some kind of strange hierarchy about your own consciousness and your own experience. Kind of like sensing a "red flag". That would immediately put you off from the teacher, cause you would know there is no reasonable excuse for doing that, even if they had some kind of secret knowledge. By the way, if you didn't know, the promise of "secret knowledge" is a very very common cult dynamic. IMO, if you want to "protect" yourself: 1. Study narcissism and cult psychology 2. Expose yourself to the views of a variety of different teachers, and then compare and contrast. 3. Don't settle for beliefs beyond your own experience

Did he? I don't recall any updates on that. I was under the impression he was still browsing Amazon for a camera that has the capability.

It's bad in the sense that it's very cult-like. Not really, I don't care about demons or making other people look like demons. I could list my empathies that I have with Leo, but that doesn't change the cult dynamics that he consistently displays, and therefore it wouldn't be relevant to the topic.

Ok this is pretty bad. Back in 2023, but I'm pretty sure he said the same thing to Carl recently. The whole "I'm not gonna share anything with you anymore if you question me" threat.

Dude, what are we expecting from a guy who was gonna become an alien on camera...

Lol. He was "absolutely" conscious of that in the past, but not anymore! Things change and get "deeper" or something, right?