aurum

This does not mean people are now Stage Green. Or that they have a principled position against corruption / exploitation. People just get angry when bad stuff happens to them.

Really nice list. AI continues to impress me.

So a guy who lives alone?

It's been reversed: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/12/03/asia/south-korea-martial-law-intl

Of course. The problem is that Trump and his goons essentially have no interest in doing an honest analysis of what would be best in terms of government size or market efficiency. They don't care about that. What they care about is mainly what will serve their own interests and their donors.

Neither. It’s likely just Bernie just calling out the hypocrisy of right-wingers on this issue. The right-wing talks so much about government waste and inefficiency, so why don’t we start with the military budget? Crickets. They have no interest in that because fundamentally the right-wing just cares more about the low-level dangers of survival and nationalism. Ideology consistency doesn’t matter, ideology is just a backwards rationalization to meet their survival needs. Honestly, that some leftists don’t understand this makes them somewhat naive. Calling them out on their hypocrisy does essentially nothing when they never cared about ideological consistency in the first place. The budget for the military will not be cut because it’s good for American survival. Leftists need to get this. Overtime we can work towards winding down American hegemony, corruption in politics and higher development, but this is a tall order. And right now we will spending the next couple of years just reducing the backslide into full authoritarian rule and even greater levels of corruption.

Actually it makes perfect sense. A person who habitually scams others will be a person with low development / consciousness. But people of low development are also usually the easiest to manipulate. So it goes both ways.

This movement has no real political influence though. The only ideology most conservatives have any interest in is neoconservatism.

The purpose of spiral wizardry is to meet people where they are at, developmentally speaking. Your group is likely not a bunch of Green progressives that need to be educated on the limitations of Green. They will just use whatever you say to reinforce their dislike for Green. So no, you would be doing the opposite of spiral wizardry. If you're just doing an hour call, I'd say your best bet is just to give a broad overview of the model. Here are all the stages, here are the pros and cons of all of them, and here is how someone transitions from each stage. Basically, just make them aware that stage theory / developmental psychology even exists. That's about all you are really going to be able to accomplish. If people are into it, maybe you can have future meetings where you discuss things further.

There's little chance anyone in your mastermind is ready for that conversation. Most people cannot even appreciate Green, let alone understand what it gets wrong and how to go beyond it. In fact, that's maybe the most important lesson from spiral dynamics: don't get ahead of your skis. Walk before you run, developmentally speaking.

It's safe to assume you're doing a bunch of BS. As I recall, you also talk about Ken Wilber and God but supported Trump. This is a joke.

No I think you're spot on. I can remember thinking the exact same thing about the establishment. Like, if they're missing the bombshell that is God, what else are they missing? I think it's just inevitable when one is opening up to post-conventional stages of development. But you can't just get stuck in being mindlessly anti-establishment either. That's a failure of meta-cognition to realize that anti-establishment thinking is itself a kind of belief system / ideology that the mind adopts.

Yes exactly. That's part of what made me give him the benefit of the doubt. Of all the popular podcasters out there, he seems to have some of the best understanding of God. He has had legit mystical experiences, no doubt about it. And he does seem sincerely committed to personal growth. It's all very twisted.

This is what I think it was for Aubrey more than any social media algorithm. He's a wealthy guy with a big social circle, surrounded by fellow new agers, elites and those with anti-establishment views. And that has likely come at the cost of truth. Score one for the devil. There's also the possibly he was just always more of a grifter than I realized:

Then you dismiss my perspective to be self-deception. Our positions are currently incompatible. Either there is a reasonable possibility for these macro structures to change or there is not. You obviously believe there is, and I disagree. No I do not. Not at any level that warrants taking it seriously at least. Even with non-linear dynamics, you are still talking a very large time until there is significant change to the macro structures for the better. Significant change for the worse is more likely. I'll ballpark a time frame of a couple hundred years. Certainly we should clean up our act as best as possible.

Aubrey was definitely one I didn't see coming. I always saw him as a solid new age Green, potentially cracking into some Tier 2. I underestimated how badly COVID and his anti-establishment / libertarian views would warp things for him. And I did not anticipate someone like RFK entering the race that would capture him. Once RFK endorsed Trump though, it was obvious Aubrey was going to follow suit. A very disappointing trajectory for a guy I used to have more respect for.

That’s exactly right. None of these macro structures are changing anytime soon. We are way too underdeveloped collectively and too dependent on them for our survival. This is a serious self-deception for many in the metacrisis community. If you want to talk about healing the ecological crisis, I’m on board. But self-deceptions around what is possible are not helpful. In addition, I’m not convinced that long-run energy use will decrease even when these structures inevitably change. We are likely headed for being an intergalactic species that colonizes space, and I just don’t see that using less total energy.

Of course. It's pretty obvious Elon is lacking in the integrity department. It's hard to become douchebag-overlord-oligarch otherwise.

@Emerald I never saw that debate as strictly being about Elon's integrity, so maybe there was some miscommunication there. It was always a broader discussion for me. And I'm not sure why you'd want to deliberately narrow it anyway. Yes, of course leftists get somethings right about Elon. That's also never been the issue. The issue is that they're still biased in their assessment. You can be biased and make good points. These are not mutually exclusive. I personally started having a bad feeling about him as soon as he bought Twitter. That was one of the first unhinged moves I saw him make. The next big problem I can remember was him doing that interview where he talked about Xavier being dead to him and that he wanted to "destroy the woke mind virus". So he was certainly less unhinged pre-COVID at a minimum. No, it's much worse than that. You give them too much credit.

Not exactly. Targeted analysis is absolutely necessary for a full, comprehensive understanding. It's just not sufficient. And yes, it will inherently lead to a more flawed understanding if that is all you do. I come to this forum to cut through as much bias, ideology and human "side-taking" as I can handle. That's the filter I run when I evaluate perspectives. That's what I consider necessary to claim that you are doing Tier 2, conscious politics and honest sense-making. If you're not doing that, then you're doing something else.

I stand by it. Nothing about what has happened over the last couple of months changes much of how I feel. Leftists continue to not have a balanced understanding of Musk, even though they insist that they do. I do think your perspective is probably more nuanced than I originally gave you credit for though. And Musk has certainly continued to degenerate in a disappointing fashion.

Energy use is going to continue to rise globally. Expecting anything else is impossible at this point.

Whatifalthist is a masterclass of misunderstanding the left. I think he's pretty sincere, but unfortunately deeply confused. I hope he figures things out.

I understand. Just keep working on it. If you feel like you have serious mental health challenges, consider professional help.

What's wrong is that you're not being grounded. No good can come from this kind of thinking.