Bill W

Hi Andrea, Was pleased to see you started a thread. I'm new here and I'm also new to the Bible and am using the Bible and connecting at church to aid my recovery. I've seen some of your posts so I was curious about this thread. I'm also a mental health nurse so I am risking sounding quite ignorant... but what's your angle here? What are we looking at and why? What kind of dialogue is this designed to start? ?

Thanks. Yes, you are right. I don't want these templates to contain more words than what is required, so it's an aim of mine to keep them simple and to the point, so thanks.

Yes. It's my understanding of open mindedness. An instruction manual so to speak. Putting it out there to see if anyone else has anything that I can hijack for my own purposes!

I focus on the breath sometimes at night when I'm in bed. It can help me drift off. But mainly with my meditation practice I either focus on snippets of books I like. Sacred text kind of stuff. It's like contemplation i think. However one of the things that has best helped me quiet my mind is mindfulness meditation. To do this and stay in the present moment I focus more on noise than my breath. The issue with this is that the breath is always there and noise or sound is not guaranteed. So I will intensely focus on any available sound to keep grounded and connected in the moment. This could be traffic, the sounds of weights clunking in the gym, a conversation people are having on the bus (I don't actually listen to their words I focus on the sounds). This has all helped me have a little more control on monkey mind. I find that even when I am not meditating that monkey mind is better. I don't meditate as much as I should. About 10 to 15 mins per day.

@kuma Don Miguel Ruiz. The Fifth Agreement, chapter 4. The whole book is great. All his stuff is. Might suit you and some of your issues. It really helped me.

That's a bit dramatic. Death? Agree about the bit underneath with witnessing. I find it powerful to do this. With silencing the mind I find that the more silent my mind is, the more serenity I have. Moves me away from Monkey mind.

I like that. Good rules.

This applies to me I think. I have some of the same issues as the original poster. If the destination is unclear..... easy for me to assume the destination is clear, but I've probably never actually checked this out. I've taken it for granted that the destination must be clear, perhaps it is not, or it is clear, but I need to meditate on it, contemplate more, remind myself. Bring the vision to the forefront rather than running in the background.... I fall into a trap thinking I've got the basics sorted and need to work on the more complex stuff, then something happens that makes me question my basic stuff. Thanks.

Hello mate, I listened to it. Thanks. My response might be going in a different direction to your main message I don't know. It's all about AA I am afraid, but I feel there is a link to your message? Yeh, with the reference to AA and 12-step fellowship approach. I was thinking the same thing just before you even mentioned AA, like a few seconds before I was linking your message from the first few minutes to what I have experienced in AA and other 12-step programmes. AA as I understand it through my own experience in it, actually empowers people by teaching them that one of the reasons they are still stuck in addiction and/or general dysfunction in life (even if they are clean and sober by this point) is that we have tried so tirelessly to sort out our shit on our own, and we are constantly failing in this because we are trying to fix our mind with our very own mind. In my experience AA teaches that we are too limited to fix ourselves on our own. I find AA does this in a remarkably empowering way as you have to appreciate many people who come into a 12-step programme are at rock bottom, with zero self-worth as it is. Many are in such turmoil you would never think they would recover and function well again. AA kind of tells you.... "you've done your best, you've fought a good fight, but it's time to throw in the towel and surrender. The game is up". At this point, if you really buy into the programme and have the right meetings to go to, a good sponsor, you are off and running into recovery. The Higher Power aspect of the 12-step approach is amazing in my experience. It doesn't necessarily have to be anything to do with God. Many atheists recover and stay in a 12-step programme for a good while. AA gently guides you into choosing your own Higher Power. For some people, the Higher Power is the "room" i.e. the meeting they are in. I have witnessed first hand the power of this. This is where the power of peer support really comes in. There is a massive sense of togetherness, and honesty. Also in connection to your message, the 12-step approach really focuses on letting shit go. It's not just about acquire, acquire, acquire skills etc. The ego is constantly under attack if you are properly engaged in a 12-step programme. David Hawkins is a big fan of the 12-step approach for this reason. Power is generated in the rooms. A power that for many simply cannot be accessed on your own doing.

Nice topic. I'm sure there will be a variety of perspectives on this. For me, what made sense, was the Susan Jeffers book (Feel the fear and do it anyway). She believes our main fear is "I can't handle it". I might be paraphrasing somewhat. She writes that it is not the incident as such that is the main fear (such as I will lose my job, I will lose my spouse, I will go bankrupt etc), but the root fear is that we won't be able to handle it. Not sure if I am making sense here. I know it sounds really simplistic, but it really resonated with me. She keeps emphasizing the "I can't handle it" being the root cause of fear. Or I suppose "I won't be able to handle it". Although, I am not sure this would fit for someone whose fear is death, or perhaps it would fit? This links in with one of my favourite definitions of psychological stress (again I paraphrase)..... stress occurs when we are asked or required to do something that exceeds our perceived level of competence. I also like this definition..... stress occurs relative to when we underestimate our competence whilst simultaneously overestimating the risk. So this is my quite basic response to your question. It might not be the most sophisticated of replies you'll get!

Love this thanks. Seen some of your other posts as they go straight over my head but this one I feel the love. Thank you.

Thanks for this. It resonates with me actually.

I honestly don't know if this is a compliment to Leo or a greviance? Shitting gold could mean he is so wise that even his shit is the good stuff or you could be alluding to Leo earning too much money?

To be honest I feel like I've got off lightly with starting this thread. The tongue in cheek nature of some of my original post is something I want to be mindful of. One persons tongue in cheek throwaway comment can be another persons trigger. Flippant and similar terms to flippant could have been thrown my way and I wouldn't really have had a right to gripe about that. I actually do think it would be healthier to have a better gender mix. However if you asked me to really justify and defend this position I might not be able to do it well. That's me being genuine here. I just find in my experience a diversity mix can promote inclusion better. But the forum isn't here to work around my little designs and plans. I guess Leo has it in mind what this place does and does not offer and it's for us to decide individually if it has something for us or not. For me it does. Totally. However. Honest disclosure. A lot of these masculine goals and some of the other goals some men are looking for here don't interest me so I'm bound to a bit more sensitive to the fact it's Male heavy here. I don't want to be seen as shitting on other people's outlook. I really don't. By the way, I make no claims for being better than anyone else who has different goals to me. Yeh, so I'm not going to defend anything too rigorously in terms of my position as I'm genuinely open to guidance, feedback etc. If I move away from humility and openmindedness I try to check myself. There will be errors along the way! I'll never claim to be knowing exactly what I am doing. Peace all and thanks for the replies and comments.

It's good your honest as it helps me at least try and put myself in your shoes. The saying that there is more than one way to skin a cat comes to mind in terms of exercise and achieving health goals. A fair bit could be achieved with the walking. Many people don't even do that.

@jbram2002 Outside some of the deeper stuff around what you really want and/or what the wife might want of you health/appearance wise, there is always the option of picking up an exercise regime regardless. While you/me/we/wife/forum are debating the more intricate complexities of the human condition, you could start picking up your exercise and work out other stuff later. The gym, local park, your running shoes, or weights equipment doesn't care what your wife thinks or that you feel physically unattractive. It's just there waiting for you to start moving. You also get to deal with that awkward beginning phase of exercise where everything feels really difficult and too hard. This is one of the best parts, as the only way is up and you might not plateau for a while, it will just be up, up, up if you plan it right. I'm assuming you don't do much exercise right now, but I might be wrong. Maybe wife didn't think much and just answered "weight lifting" as she felt she best say something. I can't imagine if you do something outside of weight lifting for your physical health she will say "oh what a waste of time, I told you to focus on weight lifting". It's about momentum, that's my final thought here!

This is interesting and partly one of the reasons I'm on the forum. Bringing things back down to my own level (that's all I can do right now until my understanding widens).... It seems to me like Leo believes he has worked out a way to circumvent the brain so his reality will be different to the others that have not managed to circumvent their brain. So to me, this sounds more like something out of a science fiction film than anything. However, I know Leo is not the only one working on this path. There are others here that are also experiencing the Matrix, like the film perhaps. For me, whatever improves your life and hopefully those around you, and hopefully the world in general, all power to it if it. This post might sound like I am taking the piss. I'm not. I'm just opening myself up for feedback which might even become ridicule of my perceived ignorance. It's good for me to put this stuff in writing as it will help chart my progress and accountability for my beliefs and understanding. I do actually strive toward being as openminded as possible, even if this post reads the opposite of that.

My thoughts on direct experience are most likely open to modification. I don't believe my thoughts on this topic are set in stone. However, saying that..... where I stand today on it right now...... I think a lot of direct experience, probably the vast majority of it, still involves the mind making an interpretation of this direct experience. I (we?) then decide what the direct experience means, or might mean. I (we) decide. So, as far as I can see, this makes the direct experience a belief. In terms of trusting my direct experience...... If I burn my hand because of boiling hot water, I trust my experience. This is pain. There are not many different reasons behind this experience. Not so much interpretation that happens (if any). If I get into a heated debate with my father or sister. This is a direct experience. I might feel resentful and angry. I might feel hurt. I might feel lost. Perhaps I can trust the direct experience, but I know for sure, I can't trust my immediate interpretation of the experience. My immediate interpretation is that they are assholes and this is false. Perhaps even an awakening could be described as a belief in terms of what the direct experience meant. We might be able to trust the direct experience, but can we trust the meaning we bring to it? How does one remove personal bias from coming to a conclusion that a certain experience means one has awakened? If one is doing lots of work on themselves and yearns for an awakening, how does one look at their direct experience objectively? Does one bring their own meaning to each experience? I could get shot down here, I don't mind. I have no real position to defend. I am curious about everyone's experiences and interpretations. But, right now where I am in my development, I see that Leo has a lot of beliefs about what his experiences mean. They mean something to him for sure. I believe he is being honest and genuine. My gut feeling is that a lot of people don't want to consider their experiences as a belief or interpretation. I am here to see where the land lies and how I can help myself through others experience and knowledge which does (I admit) often exceed mine from what I can see on the forum.

Hi, First posting on someone's journal (I think). I've only read the last entry and some of the very first entry as I don't know the etiquette on what to post or not on someone's journals. I guess it depends on the original poster. You seem to be flexible on this? Please guide me. Loads of real life problems you list. I've seen some of your other posts as well. You seem quite pragmatic and curious which is how I like to think I am. By the way, I'm a mental health nurse who took a special interest in type 2 diabetes and weight loss. I know I don't look like a nurse from my Avatar. I'm really interested in health related behaviour change but that's not something I want to overly display on this journal. I've only read one and a half of your entries and feel like I have loads in common with you. I'm going to try and link the similarities in further down the line. I can tell you I'm new to the Bible and Christianity. Haven't identified myself as a Christian, but am exploring. I'm a recovering addict who has been clean for about 8 months. I've been in the Bible most days for the past few months. I also have body image issues quite badly, but I am not saying you have. I thought I sensed a flavour of that from you though. I also often only really help out if it's in my comfort zone. This is something I am trying to better myself on. Your Avatar is about humility. Humility and openmindedness are my most treasured values. Working hard on these. I've just finished typing up my favourite Bible versus on Humilty, Compassion and Forgiveness. What else briefly...... yeh with the Leo thing. There's tons of stuff on here I think is nonsense, but that could be down to my ignorance. I'm trying not to rule anything out. Equally, I'm learning a lot from being on here. Loving it so far. I'm going to read the whole journal before I go any further.

@jbram2002 @seeking_brilliance Me as well. Count me in.

I'm not disagreeing with this but the thing that interests me is that surely a lot of direct experience still relies on an interpretation being made by the person having the direct experience. The person having the direct experience will choose what that direct experience actually means. So it's fascinating to me how people having direct experience account for personal bias when formulating the 'truth' from that direct experience.

There is a lot of reference to direct experience. One poster was posing the question, what is the difference between direct experience and a belief? Direct experience is sometimes seen as the truth I guess? Or something beyond belief? I don't see it this way necessarily. I would say that many, many direct experiences are possibly also a belief. It would be interesting to see who says they have had a direct experience that is not a belief. I am thinking that much direct experience still involves the person making an interpretation about what this direct experience means. The interpretation means they are coming to a conclusion via a belief. There is a belief that this direct experience means.... blah, blah, blah or whatever you choose the direct experience to mean. Direct experience of having your hand burned by scolding water. Not a belief. A direct experience independent of belief. Person saying they have had an awakening.... This is a belief and a direct experience.

Hi Shaun, If I were you, which I am not of course, i would reflect on the responses here but also make sure you have some other input from people not from this forum. Perhaps you are doing this already. It might help maintain an openmind on some of your issues. Someone else might spot something that we don't know about or we have not considered.

Being pragmatic, perhaps for people at a certain stage of their development (me for example) the issue is perhaps what impact does the self-image have? What problems does it cause? What can be done? For me a self image is there whether I want or not. Like delusional thoughts. They are here. It's what I do with them (or not do with them) that's important.

I'm trying to keep an open mind and avoid judgement! With soul-lover... Glancing through the thread. Is there a desire to ridicule his beliefs? Or to entertain yourselves possibly at someone else's expense? I don't know. So just asking? Maybe he is in the joke and would find it funny?