Farnaby

Hi everyone! There's a question that has been on my mind for a long time since I got interested in spirituality, buddhism, etc: If duality is just an illusion and everything is just One or actually everything just "is", why kill (or pay others to kill) animals in order to eat when it's not necessary? I read that buddhists aren't necessarily vegetarian or vegan because they often get their food from other people and it would be disrespectful to refuse food just because it's meat or fish. That sounds like a good reason. But what about everyone else who doesn't live like a buddhist monk and actually goes to the supermarket to choose their food? Wouldn't it be more coherent with the whole "idea" of unconditional love, acceptance, respect, etc., to avoid killing (especially in the way it's done nowadays in the food industry) unless necessary? I'd really appreciate reading your point of view on this matter Thank you!

Actually, I didn't start this thread to make up my mind. I've been a vegetarian for some years and although being vegan would be more coherent with my values, at this point of my life I'm flexible with some of my incoherences. But I don't fool myself thinking I'm not incoherent and telling myself I need to eat cheese, etc., because I know I don't need it. Also, I 100% agree with you when you say that it seems a lot of people are using spiritual concepts to justify any kind of behavior as if everything is morally acceptable just because our species does it. If it weren't for people who change the way they act and think, there would be no progress and we would still see slavery, etc., as morally acceptable.

Hi. sorry to hear what you're going through. I've felt similar to how you feel at some points in my life. What I noticed is that those kinds of thoughts and worries were not much different from any other thought. In my experience this kind of cognitive dissonance appears as we try to use our rational mind to make sense of the world and then we get attached to those thoughts. It probably has something to do (at least in my case) with the fear of completely surrendering to the flow of life. Why do I think this? Well, at least in my experience, when I've felt this way, what has helped is stop clinging to those thoughts and just try to be as present as I can. Usually, when I "do" this, there's no more cognitive dissonance, it's like both polarities (for example "Relationships don't matter in the bigger picture" vs. "Relationships are important for me") get integrated and I just accept that both are true. Alan Watts speaks of a similar idea when he says that Zen masters used to tell students that suffering arises from desire and then the students tried to get rid of desire, only to discover that it's not possible to get rid of desire. What I'm trying to say is it seems to me that you discovered the other side of the coin (the illusion of what we perceive as real) and you're rejecting the side you were used to (when studies, women, sex, friendships, etc., seemed important to you). Have you tried meditating when this happens and try to drop any belief and just accept the flow of life? I know it's easier said than done, but it helped me a lot. I hope this is useful for you

Hmm, I understand your point of view, but it sounds like mental gymnastics to me in order to justify the action of eating animals. Maybe in the larger picture of the Universe, it doesn't make a difference, but it certainly does for the animals that are being kept in cages, tortured, separated from their babies and killed. I bet if someone came to your house threatening your family, you wouldn't just accept him/her torturing and killing your family members, just because you realized that death is not a possibility and it doesn't make any difference. I'm sure you would do something to avoid it, even if this decision comes from your ego.

This is what I noticed too. A lot of people seem to justify absolutely everything just because it occurs in the universe, without taking into consideration that there definitely are actions we could avoid and reduce some of the harm we cause. IMO saying: "everything is human, everything is OK so I will just continue indulging in any behavior I want in this particular moment" doesn't sound enlightened at all. It sounds as egoic as saying "I'm a better person than you because I don't eat animals".

Would you say that which is aware is it?

I understand what you're saying, although I see it as there's a part of me who does care about animals and since there's no need for me to eat any animal I choose to follow that part and see how it feels. What I mean is I wouldn't say I'm pretending that I care. A part of me does care a lot. This doesn't mean there aren't things I do that potentially hurt animals, but I choose to reduce the amount of those actions. Maybe that's just my ego speaking, but that's also valid for those who come up with any theory on why they choose to eat meat. Of course right/wrong are subjective and moral concepts, but if we say that we are the whole universe and science tells us there are ways to reduce the negative consequences of our impact, why not follow that instead of continuing to do things that are proven to be harmful.

This too. If we are the universe and we know that animal agriculture has one of the biggest environmental impacts, why not stop contributing to that?

No, it's not. It's a way of living without using anything of animal origin (food, clothes, etc.) @purerogue You clearly misunderstood me. I was just answering based on my experience to @Nahm. And I haven't experienced any difference in terms of energy and clarity since I'm a vegetarian. A vegan diet is not unhealthier than a "normal" diet, unless you have an unbalanced diet. This doesn't mean some people don't develop problems, but that happens with every other diet too. I'm against any kind of dogmatism, because those of you who say we kill animals on an everyday basis without even noticing are completely right. However, the fact that having 0 impact on other beings lives is impossible, doesn't seem incompatible with our ability to make decisions that don't contribute to further damage and suffering. That's where I see the incoherence in defending spiritual values like "everything is connected", "our ego is an illusion", "we are the universe", unconditional love, etc., and not avoiding unnecessary actions that lead to suffering. Of course no one is perfect and we all do things that hurt others, but just plainly accepting that and continue doing it seems very egoic to me. It's like saying: "Oh well, let's just accept people who go around raping or torturing other people. It's just the way it is and we have to love them unconditionally and not do anything to avoid it".

Of course you can’t live without killing anything, but you can certainly reduce your impact and your contribution to mass exploitation. Notice how conveniently you ignore how animals are kept nowadays to provide us with huge amounts of meat, fish, eggs, dairy, etc. This seems very egoic to me, since you’re choosing to ignore this fact to justify eating what “feels”/tastes good. If we only choose based on what feels good to us it’s clear to me that it’s an egoic decision. It’s different of course if you’re poor or need to hunt and fish for survival. But if you have the choice why support mass exploitation and killing?

Oh OK, I think I misunderstood you. You mean eating meat/fish hurts your body when you have to make exceptions? That's kind of shitty

Are you implying you need meat for clarity and energy or did I get it wrong? I’ve been a vegetarian for some years and haven’t noticed any difference.

I agree with you on the need to be flexible when traveling. Someone with a more radical opinion could argue that it’s often possible to find something vegan if you try hard enough, but I think there’s no problem un being flexible sometimes. I’m actually not vegan and am In no position to judge anyone since the dairy industry is probably worse than the meat industry. But I see the incoherence there is between my values and my actions. What I’m trying to understand is the people who don’t see the incoherence in defending spiritual values and eating whatever they want.

Of course, I would never question the decision if you’re poor. It all depends on the situation and life circumstances. However, there’s lots of people who defend the value of not harming others unless necessary, who have the choice and still contribute to mass exploitation of animals. This is the kind of scenario that strikes me as incoherent.

Yes, I understand that. But that’s not the case for the entire population. Lots of people don’t need meat to stay alive and still choose to eat it. This strikes me as incoherent for those who defend the values that are present in spiritual communities like this one. That’s why I’m asking, because I’m interested in how people make this decision compatible with their values.

Hi! I'm interested in knowing what you think is the best approach to meditation, especially for beginners. Do you think it's better to pay attention to your breath and try to belly-breathe or is it better just to sit and do Leo's "Do Nothing" technique and just observe everything that arises in your awareness. The way I understand it, meditation is about accepting the present moment as it is. Wouldn't breath control go against this? Also, what do you suggest doing with monkey mind chatter? Just let it be and observe it in order to get to know how our mind works or try to come back to your breathing? Thank you very much!

Thank you! Yes, I tried the "Do Nothing" meditation and found it very useful. Thank you! I found this to be true IME too. Watching my breath whenever my mind drifts too far away seems useful to maintain the presence, but only if done gently, without trying to control how I'm breathing. Thanks, I'll have a look at the video Yes you're right, acceptance is probably not the right word, although observation of the present moment helps with letting go and accepting. Regarding your questions: 1) Different ways of meditating deliver a different experience so I don't really know if one helps me learn more about myself than another. I found the "Do Nothing" technique very useful, as well as practicing mindfulness during everyday activities. 2) Generally I feel pretty calm and peaceful especially with mindfulness. However, whenever I start meditating, there's moments of nervousness but I don't find it too difficult to tolerate it and it usually passes after a couple of minutes. 3) I have a pretty hyperactive monkey mind lol. This means that I feel connected with the present moment after meditation, but I feel like I'm always having to make an effort not to go back into monkey mind mode. Lately I've found it more and more easy to connect with the present moment. Do you think thoughts should be treated as part of the present moment or are they interfering with the ability to stay present? I guess in the end you don't need a formal and structured technique/practice in order to meditate, although I think it can be useful in the beginning. I find it easy to meditate when doing simple activities like walking, eating, showering, etc., but not when playing videogames for example. Do you think you can reach a meditative state with those kind of very intense and fast paced activities? Thanks everyone for your input

Thank you for your answer. I've found what you say to be true in my own experience. Whenever I try to control something, be it my breathing or anything else, I feel like I'm loosing awareness of the present moment. However, I've seen multiple guides and even Leo insisting on the importance of noticing when you're getting lost in mind chatter and bringing your attentiton back to your breath. I find this is helpful, but only if I lost awareness of how my mind is chattering. What do you think about this? Isn't it contrary to the principle of completely letting go? I'm also trying what you suggested, trying to be as present as I can during everyday activities

Hi! First of all I would suggest completely accepting this trait of your personality. If it's there it's there for a reason (or multiple reasons). Generally, arrogance and preachy attitude is a defense mechanism. Usually what's behind it is a great amount of insecurity and fear of being hurt. Learning about how projection works could be useful for you. After accepting this, digging deeper would be the way to go IMO. What I mean by this is getting in touch (emotionally) with your insecurities and fears. By accepting these parts of yourself, you probably won't feel the need to hide and defend yourself so often. However, this is just one hypothesis and it doesn't have to be your case. This is why the most important part is to work on yourself, get to know yourself better and ask yourself what this arrogance, etc., has protected you from. Once you've done this, you can decide if you still need to play that role. Giving up something that has been a part of you for a long time is a difficult and usually long process, so don't beat yourself up if it takes some time. It's literally jumping out of your comfort zone and that is usually pretty scary, so relapses are to be expected, especially when you feel you're being attacked. A psychotherapist can be very useful in this process. Also, don't expect to become the most humble person in the world. Let us know how it goes

Hi! Based on what you're saying, you don't seem schizophrenic to me. Schizophrenia is part of the psychotic spectrum and by definition when you're psychotic you can't tell if the voices in your head (or other phenomena like being paranoid) are real or not. But you say you know you're creating this. Your symptoms sound more like something neurotic, not psychotic. It seems to me you tend to worry a lot and now this worry is projected onto a particular object: the possibility of being schizophrenic. From what you say, I would keep working on your fears, which seem to be linked to being scared of rejection (and therefore deeper inside probably fear of being abandoned). I hope this is somehow useful for you

Ok. Since you tell me this doesn't happen when you masturbate, I would treat it as a normal consequence of not masturbating for a long period of time and not releasing your sexual energy. I understand you wanting to prepare for the future, but I think this can easily put pressure on you. Every sexual experience is different and as much as you may want to be able to control how it goes, it may not go the way you imagined it. That's why I think the most important part is to try to be as present as you can and follow your instinct. Many factors are involved in a sexual encounter and it's impossible to control everything. There's a lot of pressure society puts on men's performance and it's easy to focus too much on our performance. Usually, contributing to an intimate emotional bond and making your partner feel safe, sexy, etc., is way more important than how long you last. I would suggest you don't forget that it takes two people to have a pleasant sexual experience. You are not responsible for your partners pleasure, although you will certainly be able to give her pleasure if you're connected with your own pleasure and with her on an intimate level. But don't forget communication is key and you can't know what your partner likes and wants without her telling you in some way. Also, what often happens is when you let go of the pressure to last longer, you are more able to connect on an intimate level and actually have more control over your body. Even if you do cum faster than you would like, this would be completely normal since you are having your first sexual experiences and everyone needs time and practice to learn. Also, if you can be OK with the fact you couldn't last as long as you wanted and don't obsess over it, it probably won't be a big deal for your partner.

Hi. Is this happening to you since you're on nofap or is it something that's always there no matter if you masturbate or not? In any case, I would suggest trying reverse kegels and hindu squats to stretch the pelvic floor in case it is tense. Also explore if there are any psychological concerns that need to be adressed like fear of rejection, being emotionally tense (and therefore physically too) before and during sex, etc. I think the most important part to have a positive sexual experience is trying to let go of control and just try to be as present as you can. Maybe look into tantric sex and other things that help you with staying present and not resisting what you may feel during sex. I hope this can be somehow useful to you

Hi, I'm new to this forum but I'll try to be as helpful as I can. When I started reading about Buddhism, non-duality, ego-death, etc., I got caught in a similar trap. I started trying to draw logical conclusions like you're doing: "If me and you are only illusions, how can they have meaning and why should I do anything in life?" As others have pointed out, if you really observe this thought, you will notice it's only another idea/rationalization your ego is clinging to in order to feel in control. It seems to me, you are discovering that life is in a sense a game in which we are playing a role. This is a positive Ah-ha moment, but it seems a part of you is not willing to accept this and is labeling it as if it were something bad that needs to be changed. Again, this is a part of you trying to be in control and resisting reality. I know how confusing this can be and that's why I agree with those who told you to avoid getting caught up in language/thoughts. You won't find the answers you are looking for in your inner dialogue. You have to go out and experience life, noticing when you are analyzing it so you can learn to let go of this need to understand everything. This is not easy to do but it will help you learn how to be present and be comfortable with life as it is. Of course this doesn't mean you won't feel unpleasant emotions. They are an essential part of life. But your ability to not act out on them and actually learn from them will greatly increase. I would also strongly encourage you to seek psychotherapeutic help, as you seem to be suffering a lot right now and this process will help you to find out what you need right now in order to be able to enjoy your life. I hope you can get something positive out of this and enjoy life