Nivsch

The hostages won't be released without a life threat to hamas.

@Raze Terror organization have to be restricted from marine and air ways.

@Raze 1. Absolutely not. From now on the operation is mainly in the ground and in hamas tunnels. 2. There is no blockade. They are an independent state .That called borders with marine and air restrictions. West Bank Palestinians are under PLO responsibility. 3-4. Yes both sides have responsibility to the worsening of the conflict.

@Raze Israel isn't suppose to leave part of hamas active just like that US and Europe would not be satisfied if ISIS was stay active in some areas. The hypocrite game of making it all a problem Israel created is beyond laughable. There are many more component to this ancient hate including religious, theologious that would expressed anyway in a form of hamas and terror too even if Israel did everything right.

@Raze 1. PLO has been treated good by Israel. I dont understand what you mean. Oslo agreement made the terror much worse by the way, and also the following agreements in the 90's were great and gave a lot of hope to the Palestinians. What was their answer to that? 2nd Intifada. 2. Iran is the main israel's enemy. What are you talking about? Their regime (not the Iranians) wants to erase Israel from the map regardless of what Israel does or doesnt.

@Raze And what do you think made PLO to stop the terror and start co-operate with Israel? The war Israel started in 2002 against hamas in the West Bank that lasts couple of years. Then now you just suggest the soldiers out of Gaza and hamas to re-arm and everything to go back to how it was in oct 6th?

@Yousif How would you call the Allied attack on Germany in WW2? Would you think they are as bad as the Nazis? But I can understand you in the way that if some Israelis are so in rage that call for killing of palestinians in general, then yes, those people who say this are in danger of thinking too similar to the terrorists. So I understand you here.

By your logic we must not agree with the Allied attacks on Germany because then we justified murder of innocent. Sorry but this is absurd.

@Yousif I dont understand this game of justified or not justified. I wish nobody innocent would have been killed. Of course. But this is impossible.

@Yousif I am not justifying anything, but you will have to bring here an another alternative to how to do this war. Given hamas tactics, it is impossible to touch him without touch civilians too in most of the attacks.

@Yousif Suggest a better way to eliminate hamas.

@Yousif The sum damage could definitely be lower. But the casualities I think not. I do not support the exaggerated material damage. But again you must see the equation from both sides what you refuses to do.

This is how it seems when you don't understand Israel's long accumulated traumas and the fact that the existential threat for Israel frpm Iran's proxies is real and we have to take the other side's intentions seriously.

This is a goal that has tried to be avoided so many time during the last 2 decades and tried to be managed in every way possible.

At least to eliminate enough of them to the level they can no longer dominate in the area and will agree to release our hostages I believe this is a real accelerating factor to all of this war's character.

Its ok 🙌 I appreciate your approach. All good. The talking about setteling in Gaza are really an extreme margins for all I can estimate as an Israeli citizen listening to our media and conversations.

@Thought Art Israelis dont want to live there except of 5% far right wingers. We have built a fence in billions not in order to conquer Gaza after that. This doesnt make sense.

Do you have a better way? You can not bomb, but then your soldiers will fall like cards and in many thousands until the elimination of hamas will be completed (years).

But this war's goal is to eliminate hamas completely. This will necessarily take so much more time than the oct 7th attack. Then of course the damage will be far higher.

I dont know Leo. There are so many terror targets and booby traps to attack built over 18 years for IDF and we all know hamas tactic to get mixed with civilians. Maybe 1.5 : 1 ratio is unavoidable. Maybe it could be better. Maybe not. I really dont know the answer. I think that if my government wanted to kill indiscriminantly the ratio was 20:1 (and not 1.5:1). I can agree that the exaggerated material damage is maybe affected by the fact that the goverment is very radical in relation to Israel's average. But about the casualities I tend to think differently than you. IDF could not bomb anything but then invade a terror base full of traps in every neighborhood built especially for it for 18 years and fall like cards in front of it.

By "best intention" you mean that my government really try to not harm civilians and still not accurate at all in the outcome? Or that you mean that it doesnt really try in your opinion because otherwise the outcome would be different?

@zurew Absolutely agree with you.

Yes this is when this parameter get completely out of meaning, when we know that their intention was to kill anyone indisciminantly, including Israeli Arabs even, as long there are placed in Israel.

I understand it organaized from the best (left) to the worst (right) when we want to see both the most positive blue and the most negative orange which is the best outcome.

Thank you. I will read again all your main explanation and graphs. By the graphs you added based on this formulation, Israel is placed in the extreme careful side of the scale if I understood it right, In terms of casualities. Not in material damage there the picture is different.