Nivsch

I think you guys are dismissimg the video in an overly broad manner. He has some valid points: 1. Some of the most significant countries in the world have been created in similarly problematic ways, and almost every country has required some degree of forceful conquest for its establishment. 2. hamas does not respond to 1967 occupation but almost entirely to the very existence of Israel. What strenghtens this assumption is the fact that each time the negotiations between Israel and Palestine have approached a breakthrough, there has been a significant increase in terror activities inside Israel. They don't want an agreement based on 1967 lines. You can verify it yourself. 3. The ratio between civilians and combatants he mentioned is right, and it is still far lower than the ratio in any other war of western militaries against guerilla.

Can those tests get any more transparent? Not possible.

If this was the case I agree with you here that it isn't justified. You cannot just eliminate every important person in Hezbollah by all means and say it is 'worth the cost'.

Both are wrong.

Actually Owen Jones is too negative and judgmental to a delusional way. Very shadow-ic. Not a mature way to tackle this tricky conflict.

Agree and even part of the westerners that shout those slogans aren't even green.

Yes Ben Gvir is the worst. In his shift the violence in the Arab society, Jew society and settlers towards Palestinians is the worst.

Yeah I am absolutely with you here.

Why they have kicked out? Just because Israel existed than other Jews will be kicked out from surrounded countries? This still isn't Israel's fault.

Well yeah Smotrich is a nightmare I won't dispute that. Today this is like we have two societies that are quite the opposite of one another. The SD Green one and the Blue one. This is why there is a fear from civil war in Israel.

Nice. You visit here so sometimes?

Yeah emotional expressions are necessary sometimes but from a given treshold there is a place to ask what in ME makes me push this so strongly and in such non-nuanced way? For example say I take what hamas did and extrapolate it too loosely to the Palestinians (what I did in the past) you will claim, and rightly so, that what I do isn't just, and that me myself contribute to the same darkness I pretend to shout against.

Could you tell more about the Spanish? Their sub groups and agendas? And what do you think is the reason the extreme way has took over eventually?

I still don't understand this activism game against US and Israel going on here. Sure it is fair to understand all the West's flaws and immaturity and mistakes, to investigate those and learn from. But when doing so in an emotional, extrapolated, generalized manner, do we really go according to those tier 2 values we appreciate so much? Do we really spread Light and understanding? Do we really help the sides to soften and the peace to come faster? Or that we just fall to the very similar traps at the end of the day?

Two quotes from Lapid's (Head of Israeli Opposition) article I liked the most. Worth a separate message. The full article in the message above. I LOVE his thinking here.

Head of Israeli Opposition Yair Lapid calls for a political agreement between Israel and Lebanon that will bring the Lebanese military to sit north of Israel's borders. https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-823764?fbclid=iwzxh0bgnhzw0cmteaar2tunjk2w_sjy-nqfzsdjdlycahpv1pnnibtezefa_ykos8tzaawbqd3ag_aem_a-i639sw2oqkxczhfar2wg

After such trauma you wouldn't ended up with any other conclusion other than make your own home in your own terms and a land you are deeply connected to. This is how psychology works and its not wrong but right. Would you let others decide to you where to establish your state? Then you would feel even more humilliated, empty and meaningless. Israel is an authentic healthy outcome of the situation but got out of control and in this sense I am not denying the problems Jews have caused too.

Many groups among the Jews have not planned or wanted it. It is that the more religous ones agenda has overcame the rest.

I mean that I identify myself among the 30-40% of Israelis who are Liberal Europeen in their values.

+1 ❤️

Don't lose hope. The half liberal will split and establish their own little Europe in the North, Coastal plain including Tel Aviv, and the Mountain-shelf.

Which way will be better? And why this way won't help to seriously understand the issue?

Even that came after both sides escalated each other for 30 years from the 1920's and what Ben Gurion did was of course unjustified but after such long time of such ping pong, both sides will be much less moral to one another and won't be at all in the same state of consciousness they were in at the 1920s.

The Palestinians see IDF soldiers as evil but they can't see that a big part of what IDF is doing is becasue of fear from the terror the extremists among them do against Israelis. Its a strange loop.

And why their bias is more triggering and difficult to you, then the other side's biases? Because you expect much more from the Israeli side to be the 'mature adult'? When I argue with Right wingers in some Whatsapp group, I feel often anger on them because I expect they would think more broadly on the situation whereas on the Palestinians I am not angry because I am not identify with them so I don't expect.