ivory

@Jayson G I hope you don't mind me chiming in here but I can totally relate. On one hand you want to streamline your process on the other hand you waste a lot of time on low consciousness activities. Check it. There are a couple of things going on here. You put a lot of pressure on yourself and you suffer. You're getting in your own with with all the planning, perfectionism, and trying to get it right. I'm not saying to give up entirely but you may want to check your motives. You appear to come from a place of lack both internally and externally. You need to get to the point where are content with both the internals and externals of your life. As for giving up addictions and distractions this is a life long journey. Be easy and patient with yourself, it's only ego that wants to tackle too much.

Yeah that too

Feeling alive, healthy, and free from preferences. Variety makes me feel alive, being good to myself makes me feel healthy, and embracing life's challenges leaves me with an appreciation for it all.

@Willie Are you familiar with the phrase "not knowing"? You'll hear it a lot in Zen. It's pretty self-explanatory but basically what it means is that we don't know, we can't know, and we need to be okay with that. That said, once the mind realizes that nothing is knowable it's important to cultivate values such as love, kindness, and health. We literally know nothing but at the same time we are responsible for everything and life can seriously turn on you if you don't behave accordingly. Strive to live a healthy lifestyle and be wary of anyone who doesn't.

While we are being honest here I would like to add that the new age ego is my least favorite to be around.

Yeah, I hear ya. The first noble truth is that all of life is suffering. I get that. The question is, how much suffering? We need a reason to wake up in the morning but we need to be honest about the fact that we have very little control. That doesn't mean that we should play victim. But it does mean that there are no guarantees. Yes, and this pisses me off. I still struggle with this.

@No Self Great analysis of the new age movement. I don't know anyone deeply entrenched in conspiracy theories but I have known many new-agers. What has astonished me is their willingness to pile on belief after belief without questioning any of it. I had always wondered why until I had a conversation with one of them. He said, "Without spirituality life would be meaningless." I think you are right in assessing the desire to feel good as a primary motive. But it's also true that many of them are avoiding an existential meltdown (we could argue that that is the desire to feel good). Nothing lasts, all of life is unsatisfactory, and there's no self to experience either. Not an easy pill to swallow. It's much more palatable to believe that we have spirits guiding us then to consider the possibility that we're 100% groundless.

@Mjolnir Quite frankly I think you're in a better place than those who obsess over self-development. There's a spectrum with "over-doer" and "under-doer" at each ends. You're more likely to feel content than those who are in a hurry to get somewhere. That said, if there are things you want out of life that you're not addressing then you need to resolve that inner conflict. I used to be an over-doer, now I probably lean more to the under-doer end of the spectrum. I feel rather content even though my life isn't perfect (and nor will it ever be). I think that one mistake a lot of people make is that then undertake a self-development journey with the intention of improving themself. I won't say that's wrong, but it is a bit misguided. You grow by doing the things you want and by doing the things you have to do. What's the point of being a super-hero if your life sucks? Lead a meaningful life. Do that. Start there, get clear on what you want and pursue that. That's how you'll grow. Don't pursue personal growth because you think you should. Lastly, start small. Push yourself a little more than you want to each day. There's no hurry and there's no reason to make yourself miserable running towards the future. Give yourself a break, start slowly, and inch towards a meaningful life.

Are you familiar with the three characteristics (also known as the three marks of existence)? Meditate on that. The first characteristic is that nothing lasts. The second is that all of life is unsatisfactory (in one way or another). So, you tell me. That said, when you accept life on a deep level, even with the ups and downs and disappointments you can reach a level of okay-ness. That's what you're looking for.

@Leo Gura Just out of curiosity how long would you say serious seekers who make fairly consistent progress spend at each stage in the spiral before transitioning to the next? I really only care about the time one may spend at orange and green before moving on. What have you observed on this forum and what was your personal experience?

I'd really like to see some evidence of this. I personally think that someone at yellow, or even healthy green, is equally content hanging with friends or in solitude. I have notice that there are times in my life where I am more solitudinous than others, but it has more to do with my interests and projects at the time rather than spiritual maturity. Did you see this post from Leo? It takes time to accumulate a group of high quality friends but I highly recommend it. Most of my friends are introverts like myself so they deep and varying interests. We talk about spirituality, psychology, psychedelics, politics, health; and we go on adventures together. Luckily I live in a fairly diverse city so it's not too difficult to find like minded people.

@Jake777 Why would you want to push your ideas onto others. People learn and grow on life's terms.

This is my favorite movie!

By getting professional help.

Yeah this is why I'm not a fan of the word "spiritual". I like "authentic" because there's less room for interpretation and "healthy" and "unhealthy" adjectives are also quite helpful. I would also include an awareness component. Let's just say that if you're truly on the path you strive to live a healthy, authentic lifestyle with conscious effort. It's not perfect, I'm sure others could come up with a more concise definition. This is how it is now,. Desires change, future uncertain. What are you talking about? What does it mean to grow spiritually? The wrong friends will hold you back, and the right friends will make you grow. I'm not denying any facts. I have yet to be presented any facts. This thread is for those who are denying their basic human needs. Green, pink, purple, whatever. I can relate. I'm an INFJ. Some of this is an introverted characteristic. Some of this is specific to the spiritual practitioner. Many isolate. Some learn to accept and adapt. Others seek out more compatible friends.

@Javfly33 I've been coding for 15 years and would like to offer you some advice. In that time, I have only met two people that made it without a degree that made it in my field. The first just loved computers, was curious, and a genius. He had practical skills as well as an in depth technical knowledge. He was always reading and learning. The other lacked intelligence but made up for it in persistence and creative actions. He ran a local meetup group for software developers. I personally thought he was stupid but he earned my respect because he didn't quit. The last I heard about him we were both offered a job at the same company making $150k per year. I turned it down for something else whereas he accepted. I am still impressed that he was able to rake in that kind of salary with no college degree. What you need is maximum exposure in your city. I would highly recommend starting a javascript meetup group and commit to doing at least one event per month. @SaltyMeatballs suggested that you hire a professional to write your resume and I encourage you to listen to him. I would never write my own resume, leave that to the professionals, trust me, it's worth it. Good on you for picking javascript, keep at it, it is and will always be the most sought after skill. Learn everything you can about javascript. Read beginner and advanced books. Also, see if you can do some volunteer work. You are going to need to prove that you can handle responsibility. Look into open source projects, offer local companies to work for free or cheap, and just keep chugging along.

@Thought Art Tell us more. How did it go down?

Yep, it happened to me, and it was a nightmarish six years. I won't say you need to be concerned, but I would encourage you to develop a healthy sense of self before you tackle the advanced stuff. I'm not sure where you're at developmentally but if you experience depression, anxiety, loneliness, or low self worth then you need to start there. Ignore that shit now and and it will show no mercy later.

@nistake If I had to guess I'd say he's retaliating because he was duped and misled by a spiritual teacher. He's angry, and still hasn't learned to think for himself, so he's acting out. @QandC Dude, I just clicked your youtube channel link. Didn't realize that was you. Your Frank Yang interview popped up in my feed last week. Good stuff.

Fo' shizzle dizzle! It's really interesting to see that now. I was just hanging out with a guy from Ethiopia and was complaining about society. He claims that people today no longer share "universal" values such as honesty, compassion, and community. I bit my lip, but I get why he'd expect others to share the same perspective. I want to a harem where hot babes in bikinis give me back rubs and feed me grapes. I don't think that's asking too much.

I don't think you're being honest. You're not the only one who's been triggered here. That said, I'm not here to ruffle feathers. I'm friendly, and I prefer to banter and play, but I am also challenging and I will call your ass out. Love me or hate me I appreciate your perspective.

@Rilles @DocWatts @LeoX8 @Carl-Richard @RendHeaven @DocWatts @datamonster @Carl-Richard Thanks for the honesty and sharing your wisdom. This was super helpful. When I first joined this forum I was in the middle of a stage orange crisis unable to see that I was being pushed into green. That was about two years ago. Thankfully, Leos videos put an end to my confusion and misdirection. On one hand, I can start to see some yellow shining through, on the other I can see that there's a lot of work to do. I've learned a couple of things so far. The transition isn't black and white. Your values and behaviors may reflect those of a certain stage but each stage requires a significant amount of changes and a radically different perspective. This can only take time. It's silly to be concerned with where you're at on the spiral, and to do so is to miss the point. No stage is better than the next and each stage has very important lessons to learn and embody. Graves said that there are no single-colored people, rather a kaleidoscopic blend of varying characteristics from each level. I resonate the most strongly with green, but I also recognize that I haven't embodied it fully. On a similar note, I'm not quite as assertive as someone in red or ambitious as someone in orange. So much to learn and integrate. Life is pretty cool, never a dull moment.

Of course I do. However, at green you become hyper aware of the causes of suffering and finally begin focusing on everyday enjoyment. In contrast, orange suffers immensely because they believe that happiness can only found in the future. I can't say this is universal, but in my personal experience, the unhealthy preoccupation with personal growth drops away as you settle into a predominant mode of enjoyment. The value for growth doesn't take a back seat, but your expectations are tempered with realism. And, while yellow sounds cool, I know that I have little control over progress and the transition will happen in due time. I am in no hurry. That said, as you settle into green, you do become aware of yellow flavored modes of thought. I think that a healthy green would be humble an honest enough to admit that they far less mature than those such as Noam Chomsky. Yellow is a serious claim of attainment and I would be very wary of those who think they are on that level.,

I thought a little more about my intention for starting this thread and I realize now why this topic is so important to me. Two years ago I was in the middle of a very painful and confusing existential crisis. What I didn't realize is that I was transitioning out of Orange and into Green. I simply had no knowledge of spiral dynamics. As soon as I saw the spiral dynamics video on green, I recognized what was happening to me, and was finally able to chart a clear path forward. The thread referenced above marks the day I began my transition into green. Two years has since passed and I am reporting a profound transformation. I am at home in green and feel a very mature embodiment of green values. What I want to point out is that the contents of this current thread include many of the insights and lessons I have learned over the last two years, and highlights some of the mistakes I had made prior to that. I personally don't think that you can make much progress towards enlightenment if your values are predominantly orange. I also believe that progress will be limited until you can develop and maintain healthy relationships with others and resolve issues such as chronic loneliness, depression, and anxiety. Ups and downs are inevitable, but consciousness isn't vivid until your mood is bright and stable. Mental health is imperative to stabilizes in green, let alone transition to yellow. What I'm trying to say is that if you suspect you are on the cusp of green, or have reached a stage where you have had it with loneliness and the endless pursuit of accomplishment, then you might want to pay attention to what I have to say here. To be green be solid in green is pure joy.

@7thLetter Good stuff There are several ideas I am challenging here but that is definitely one of them. I understand now that you are referring to formal meditation and inquiry. You are definitely not wrong about that. The disconnect we have is because we use the terms "growth", "spirituality", and "practice" quite differently. I make no distinction between "ordinary life" and "spiritual life". My teachers made sure that the students really understood this. We were taught that true practice includes the difficulties we instinctively avoid as well as the emotions we don't want to feel. We also taught to practice in every waking moment, in all situations, including relationship. Leo and my most influential teacher, Ezra Bayda, share some common elements in their personal growth philosophies, which is part of the reason I'm drawn to this forum. Both philosophies are fairly comprehensive, emphasizing practices that facilitate personal growth and the embodiment of absolute truth. This is not very common. I found a few of my teachers quotes on the web that I'd like to share here. Hopefully this will help you understand where I come from and why I oppose some views shared by members of the forum. These four quotes summarize what the majority of spiritual practice entails but most people here will not want to hear it. Nobody wants to believe that spiritual life is just ordinary life (hence the tendency to renounce the ordinary)... Leo's ego is somewhat wrapped up in his lone wolf identity. I've seen him glorify the lone wolf lifestyle and I just find it irresponsible. Most people don't do well in isolation. The lone wolves of this forum suffer from loneliness and confusion as you can see here in a quick forum search. Many seem to believe that isolation is required to reach higher states of consciousness or achieve "advanced" levels of development. Thankfully, Leo does debunks those ideas here and here. Hopefully more people will see this. I'm not sure about you, but spiritual practice for me reduces suffering while maximizing enjoyment and a sense of meaning. Isolating in a cave is going to have a very different effect. I'm not saying that we won't grow or develop at all, but will not be nearly as developed as the average member of society. Society makes us grow. I've heard rumors of the cave-dwelling lifestyle, but I doubt the monks were formally trained. Monks, at least in the Buddhist and Zen traditions, live in community. Monastics live an extremely challenging life but are tough as nails. I would highly recommend spending time as a monastic guest or resident. You will be challenged, but you will be transformed on many levels. I'm not sure what you suggest I may be denying. I understand that spirituality requires sacrifice, it's hard work. We need to carve out some extra time for formal practice, but letting go means letting go of the things that aren't in alignment with our values. I used to be alone wolf but suffered some pretty bad mental health issues. Then, two years ago I started to explore how a life filled with friends might affect me. I have discovered that I have a deep need for friends. I understand how unhealthy it is to pursue enlightenment with such intensity that you deny your basic human needs. I wouldn't say that I'm woke, but I am very well established in the Green value system. In fact, two years ago, I began my transition from Orange to Green which is document in this post: here. It's sort of interesting to see how it all started with my discovery of SD and understanding that I needed to shift into Green at that particular tine in my life. If you're into SD you'll recall that each stage transcends and includes the one prior. So at Yellow, you transcend the unhealthy manifestations of Green and include the healthy ones. That means spiritual growth beyond Green does not mean you cut off your friends! That said, may no longer live in a hippie commune at Yellow, but you're not living in isolation in a cave either. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I've seen very little evidence to back this claim. It might work for Leo, but we can't assume it's because he's spiritually evolved. Leo, after all, still needs to put drugs up his ass to reach high states of consciousness. Just saying.