ivory

I agree with that

Why does life have to have meaning? I find joy in reading, hanging out with friends, and working out. For me that's enough. Life having no meaning just means you're responsible to live a life that's meaningful to you. In other words, you alone create meaning by doing the things that are important to you. Nihilism does, yes. But the existentialists had an answer to nihilism. Live a life that's meaningful to you. Find out what you enjoy and do that.

I agree. As someone who's been through this I can tell you that's it's very hard to find your way out on your own. May advice would be to start doing therapy with a good therapist. Also, find a meditation teacher who's familiar with dark night. If you don't have friends, get some. You will need them to help you stay grounded. Find some stage green friends. I ended up moving to city that had it all (greenish people, meditation teacher, and a therapist). I still deal with depression from time to time but it is manageable. Yep, that's why I backed off from going to the zen center. They talked about meaninglessness and the dark side of meditation all the time. It felt like rubbing salt on an open wound. I think I asked you before but what does your life look like? Exercise, friends, hobbies, work, etc.

@Philipp Most people have goals because they think it will bring them happiness, complete them, or make them powerful. These are illusions. This search continues because they keep thinking that maybe the next one will work. It never works. There is always more. There is nothing wrong with having goals, but there has to be some understanding that the positive emotions aren't necessarily going to last. There are ways to be at peace and enjoy life. That's what the existentialists were about. Modern psychology and western spirituality often draw from existential philosophy. The basic premise is, find out what you value, and do that. I spent some time in a western zen monastery. The thing that stood out the most was that the monks didn't waste any time. At all. Ever. Period. They flowed from one thing to the next all day every day. Meditation -> Breakfast -> Work -> Lunch -> Work -> Free time -> Dinner -> Meditation. During free time most people either socialized, exercised, played, or worked on some creative activity. They did not slip into distractions. Authenticity is another buzz word with the existentialists. Passion, curiosity, enjoyment, and love are all authentic desires (off the top of my head). That is what is worth pursuing. Validation, power, hedonistic pleasures are not. Regarding the struggles of life, life is hard. All species struggle with survival and the day to day demands of life. Our responsibility is to be strong enough to deal with what life throws at us. Once we have taken care of everything we need to, we have our free time. How we spend it really matters and ultimately brings us satisfaction. If I could summarize the existentialists, open up to the challenges of life, drop distractions, and do what matters.

I never said it could be found at all

I guess the question to consider is whether or not we serve a purpose that don't relate to biological concerns.

I think all things have a purpose. To survive, procreate, and participate in the interconnectedness of reality. I think purpose is more obvious for some things than others. Like, bees, for example. They have the job of spreading pollen from flower to flower and making honey. Some species are food for other species. I'll have to think about the purpose of human beings. I don't think it's quite as obvious because we do so much harm and very little to provide outside of our families. I guess sometimes we do get eaten, so we've gotta be some kind of food source

Do you make a distinction between meaning and purpose?

Hahaha. Awesome. In any case, I used to experience the fear as well. Reality is not what it seems.

@Thewritersunion So do you think that because everything is intimately connected that life has meaning? Seems that you really value love.

@Arthur Well said

Yeah man, that's what I've been saying Meaning is relative. One has to figure out what is meaningful to them.

@Philipp You asked if enjoyment was real. Well, it seems so because you enjoy certain things. Of course you don't enjoy when I have sex Sometimes we do things that are enjoyable, sometimes we don't. While we are having these experiences, and sometime after, we enjoy ourselves. But the feeling of enjoyment fades. Such is life. See Leo's video on impermanence. Impermanence includes internal states of mind as well as external things and circumstances. I have no purpose and I'm fine with that. But I know what I enjoy/value and I do those things often. I like friends, going to the gym, listening to music, reading, etc. I rarely, if at all ever, think about meaning anymore. However, there was a time where I felt like everything was meaningless. Not a fun time. Are you familiar with the existentialists? I mean, existential philosophy. The posited that life was meaningless. But to make life feel meaningful we had to do know what we value, and to do the things that we enjoy or feel meaningful to us.

I don't know what you mean. Do you enjoy having sex? What is real?

@Thewritersunion Who do you think assigns this meaning? I don't think that meaning is assigned. I think decide what makes our life meaningful. That said, I would agree with you if you were to say that both love and integration reduces one's suffering. And I think that is pretty much universal.

You're not going to find meaning because it doesn't exist. However, there are things you engage in that put an end to the search for meaning. The question of meaning will no longer arise. As for happiness, it doesn't exist either. But there are things you can do where you experience enjoyment. It just won't last.

Interesting thread guys. Great read.

I used to be hyper focused on achieving goals and such. But then I realized that I enjoyed having deep conversations with people close to me much more than being so future focused. I am definitely an introvert. But I love community and close relationships. People tend to ground me in the present much more than anything else (in addition to fitness). I also used to be a people pleaser but now I don't waste time on people who don't interest me. I tend to focus my attention more on deep thinking introverts who I believe are also at stage green. Some greens are very strange. They tend to have very strange woo-woo beliefs that just annoy me. But that's not true for all. That said, I'll take a weird green over an obsessive orange any day. I don't think that being at green necessarily means you are community oriented. Especially if you are an introvert. I think what happens at green is you see the value in having relationships in general, and come to see physical and mental health as a priority, which I believe is what relationships bring to the table. The other shift I noticed is that I care what happens to society as a whole. I genuinely care for the well being of others. I used to lean more right on the political spectrum but now I identify much more with the left. I personally think you can value your alone time and be at stage green. I don't think that green means that you are a social butterfly.

To give you an idea, I live 4 miles away from downtown and 8 miles from the beach. The average rent here is $1600 to $1800 per month for a 1 bedroom apartment. If you're making minimum wage, this is not a good area to live. So people making less live closer to the desert or in more ghetto neighborhoods. I'm in the clear because I make good money. I am pretty blessed. I also have a roommate which saves me quite a bit of money. My health insurance, which is pretty decent with a $5000 deductible, runs me about $550 per month and I spend about $300-350 per month on groceries. My expenses, in total, run somewhere between $2000 and $2500 per month.

I found it really difficult to give up addictions without healthy outlets. I can't emphasize enough the importance of exercise. Exercise builds willpower. So does meditation. Having a healthy set of friends is also a good replacement. So is art and reading books. Do you have friends, hobbies, or interests?

Yeah man, I went through a stage where it seemed pointless to do anything because nothing lasted. I'm past that now. You may go through a nihilistic-like period where you feel like nothing matters. In the end you get depressed and realize that you need the world to sustain you. We have needs. So, you engage with the world, but more light-heartedly and with less attachment. Why not attached? Because nothing lasts. Oh no.

@universe I believe the average minimum wage is $7.25 per hour. But I live in California where it's $12.00 per hour.

Seems to me you're on the right track. Observe yourself, remain curious, and keep doing what you're doing.

Yeah, I went through it as well. Mainly what you would be giving up are all your ideas of what an ideal life or an ideal you would like like. As Matt said, this is a stage or radical acceptance. Basically what I had to give up where my stage orange values. Shifting into green is what alleviated the symptoms for me. I also second the bit about love. Lastly, what ended up being really important for me was a strong meditation practice, daily exercise, and time with healthy friends. Where do you see yourself on the spiral?

Scandinavians have more freedom and a higher quality of life. I'm currently reading a book called "The Nordic Theory of Everything" which describes a woman's journey from Finland to the US and adapting to a cut-throat fast paced society. Interesting read. But yeah, that whole lack of sun thing is a bitch. I lived in Portland OR for 3.5 years and it really sucked the life out of me. I'm back in Southern California now. After a while you get used to the sun and the honeymoon period wears off. One thing is for sure though, I never complain about the weather