Wyze

Do you think there might be correlations here? For example, specific personality traits allow people to access the levels quicker?

@Bluebird I guess I see it as personality traits are more adjustable, because it depends on your environment and context. I find on my results, it changes over time. Say for example: If you were born in an agreeable family but live in a dysfunctional society, then in order to survive; you take on disagreeable behaviour but you cover it up. (I think here I differentiate between real agreeableness and covered-up-agreeableness). I think Big 5 is a closer measure of neuroplasticity, even tho the model doesn't allow "growth" Its interesting that you differentiate between Neurotic traits and ability to handle neurotic traits. Isn't it the same thing? I see it as to understand and handle one's neurotic traits means lowering the chance of reacting due to them? So those same neurotic traits will no longer be "neurotic"? Hence lowering it on the Big 5 tests over time. And as a result increase true agreeableness due to empathy? I find the dynamic between Conscientious and Openness also interesting. Can high in Conscientious be also high in openness?

@Bluebird I also think openness is a very interesting trait. To break away from Orange way of being, requires a certain amount of "ability to handle the unusual". I've also noticed that the higher the Spiral, the less "emotional" but at the same time the more empathetic the person becomes. Its almost like if the person can handle their Neurotic traits, they can move up the Spiral. They also become more Agreeable. I feel like the Big 5 and SD are more similar due to their fluid nature.

@ShaharA People will be ready when they are ready. I think every time I tried to tell people anything (not necessarily self-development contents) no one reacted well. I think its to do with their emotional attachment to their worldviews and values (no matter how absurd it is). Self-development content is basically a form of deconstructing worldviews and values.

@Shin LOL to be honest, I don't think there is a need to "spread the word". Everyone will get to Leos content at their own pace. Because thats saying lower levels are not "worthy" levels to experience life in. Truth is; every level is necessary. I think for the Greens and above, its about finding the right tribe (in which ever form) and be content, live and wait for the Orange to "hit rock bottom" and then catch up.

also, anyone think the MBTI community can turn into a cult?

I'm curious; what do you think Allison Mack was thinking when she got into it, and the fact that she "thrived" as well. I've watched a few of her interviews; she appears "friendly", but everything about her is a lie.

Funny thing is, shes not behaving really British. Generally British do not make comments like that openly. I think she made a career out of emotionally abusing other people; because shes so bold in the choices of her words. To me, shes someone displaying traits of extreme black and white thinking and hyper critical eg. "no one wants to employ tattoo people", "fat people are lazy". Whats interesting is at 5:20; she regressed. That's what a child would do when under stressed and mocking others is their tension release. At 8:28; I think that was a narcissistic injury. I think definitely she shows signs of lack of emotional maturity and inability to hold an adult discussion. Are there any psychologists on this forum? I'm really interested to hear other opinions.

@Leo Gura Do you think those existing systems are working against moving up the Spiral? And why its harder for older generation or people in lower tiers to move up to Green? I use to think that having PETA or Green organisations and Green systems would automatically enhance the rest of the tier to move up (kind of learn by example). But not only this is not the case, people form counter movements too.

@CreamCat so basically, "just do as you please" - I think Red lesson have a time restriction; for adults its very tricky, and the consequences is very dangerous. @bejapuskas yeah, of cause no legalization of open aggression. And I would like to see society provide forms of development for Red. I did martial arts; I found it very empowering. However I was only able to practice it once I was making money myself. Prior to that; I had almost no outlet/channel for Red development, maybe except for heavy metal music...lol

@EternalForest what about emotional abuse? especially from a manager?

@CreamCat yes thats precise the problem. If open aggression is not allowed in a society, the citizens are unable to develop Red. (To develop is to experience Red until you've understood the lesson, and to move on from it). I live in a Western society and in the rather blunt society too, and I can tell you, the only outlet I've found thats acceptable for Red is Martial arts training. No way - I can display open aggression and most of the day to day aggression are forms of verbal abuse; and even then its probably better to use Orange tactics. I agree smaller statue men have a better chance using "brain smart" rather than "physical strength". Hence, we have so much shadow Red in the society at the moment; this could even explain the rise and reminiscence of pagan and archaic times.

I think social institutions and culture have a massive effect on a person's development. For example in most societies today: women are not allowed to openly display aggression whereas men could. I think this leads to alot of passive-aggressive and relational aggression in women, we see today. Men are not encouraged to experience emotions and openly display vulnerability. This leads to massive disconnection in men: emotionally, socially etc If we could assume this on the SD chart: Women are not encouraged to develop Red, and men are not encouraged to develop Green.

You mean like a truce? I don't think thats a good long term strategy. If anything Orange allows people to play out their need for influence and power without actually hurting physically hurting someone (as crude as it is, its a "better" long term strategy). I don't disagree with you that Orange dominance is going to take it toll on society, honestly I think it already is. Rather when the society moves into the 2nd tier is what I really envision the world to finally be at a better place.

How do you know there will be peace and honesty in a Red tribe? Have you seen the TV show, Vikings? I think its a very good example of Red. The characters lie to each other all the time.

I don't think Green is more important than any of the SD colours, because all of the colours contribute something to you as a person. I think Red is the fuel that helps Green protect its boundaries.

@Roch Was it because you've seen someone or someone close to you who was authentic and was taken advantage of? and that hurt them?

If society goes back to Red; you have to accept the fact that what you want to others, others can do to you. The winner will be the most physically fit and the type of mind games will be even more intense. There will be no law, no trust, no faith, no tomorrow. At the moment in our society, Orange exploitation are being watched by Blue (lawfulness) and Green (Activism and empathy). It is this balance that allows any form of "peace".

Orange IS NOT superior to RED. None of the stage is below or above others. It is rather a progress. Stage red have its own merits. If you somehow find yourself in the middle of a street gang, your orange is not going to save you if everyone is looking forward to beat your ass. Integrating Red = understanding survival.

@d0ornokey im watching their podcast/interview atm. Its really good. I think Brene Brown is coming from a logical/rational/research POV, and its very easy for Orange to digest her work.

The Alchemist Power of Now A New Earth Man's Search for Meaning The Four Agreements The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck All of Brene Brown's books (Her books are very good to kick-start Green development)

@Genghis Khan Yeah I can see that too. To belong to a Blue group feels like giving up part of yourself that does not "fit"; where as Green is asking for acceptance and belonging along with the variation of who you are.

@Arthur thanks for the clarification. yeah I was thinking about what might be the difference.

@Arthur Did you mean that Blue belonging is based on an external value set; like same DNA, same nationality etc and Green is based on internal value set; like same ideology etc?

I was thinking, if every stages' worldview is different; then how does each stage actually react to psychedelics? For example (and I am using my personal experiences) Green is based on understanding emotions; when I was on psychedelics, my biggest achievement was "feeling connected with the universe" - I did this through introspection and bringing up personal emotional issues while I was on psychedelics. I feel like because my worldview and needs were Green - I experienced Green-type of experiences. I haven't done psychedelics while I was in the other stages; so my knowledge is limited. Anyone?