Joshe

Seems attention hijacking would top the list. Back in the day, there was more space and time to think about things and their consequences, and to share those thoughts and ideas with others.

High failure rate. Easy to blunder.

Here’s one for you : what is the point of a concept?

Lol. I’m not sure I follow. Air is good too!

@Hojo Becoming emotionally stable and strong is something you do as a healthy, adaptive response to reality. It shouldn’t be done for women. Women are just inadvertently good at revealing a man’s emotional instability. When I saw it in myself, I wanted to change for myself, not for women, because I suffered so much that I didn’t want anything or anyone to have that much influence over my state, so I had to figure out what I was doing wrong and change, for myself. If a man tries to become a rock for women, I don’t think it would work well because that whole pursuit is driven by needing something outside one’s self, but the whole point is to need less from outside and develop an internal locus of control.

@ExploringReality What about my definition is lacking? "A dynamic, nested possibility space, shaped by constraints and defined by perspective."

lol. Yes, hell on earth.

This is true. I hate that they feel that way though. They think I'm flexing or some shit but really, I'm just trying to engage in ideas and hope they can meet me there or be open to learning, but when they can't, they project that I get ego juice from it, because to them, they feel inferior, but to me, they are not inferior just because they don't know something.

Haha, yeah, one day I was just putting a vibrator on different spots of my face and found it. Pretty amazing. lol.

Yeah, I love the tension that gets released in a deep cry. Something interesting I discovered recently: I can trigger a similar effect by stimulating my trigeminal nerve with a vibrator to make myself sneeze. After sneezing like 20-30 times, it feels like I just cried a lot.

That's true, usually. And I can empathize with those crying over what I interpret as trivial, but at same time, there must be a call for strength, because I want my fellows to be strong, so they don't suffer. If a man cries because he's afraid of the dark, I'm calling that trivial and he should have transcended it by now. This is not to belittle him, but to acknowledge the reality that he has yet to learn how to deal with his emotions, with the point being for him to deal with his emotions, rather than be told it's perfectly fine to allow them to persist simply because they are genuinely there. The fact that they are there is evidence they should be dealt with - not evidence that they should be made a habit out of indulging. Many seem to actually want to snuggle up to fragility as a social strategy. I'd bet many of the men in those "crying clubs" fit that bill. And IMO, it's likely not healthy, although I am biased here. Also, I agree with your point that crying is often a sign of strength rather than weakness.

@theleelajoker Thanks! Yes, I didn't mean to imply that's the truth of the matter, just a frame. I think we can agree that it's better for men to accept reality than be bitter towards it. When men interpret women as being cold to their emotions, they could sulk into that and become bitter towards women in general (which is the typical response I've seen IME), or they can find another, healthier frame that doesn't include victimhood. The frames that appeal to me may not be appealing or compatible for you. This frame was just my strategy, which I found helpful. Whatever frame or strategy chosen, it should not suppress, reject, or deny the core reality. A healthy strategy would acknowledge the truth and orient one towards positivity. So as long as your strategy can check those boxes, it's much healthier than the typical response. Also, I don't have anything against crying in general. I actually like crying, in private lol. It's cathartic. A while back, I cried for like 30 minutes listening to the song "White Flag" by Dido. No idea even why, as I didn't relate to anything in the song. It was just me projecting several layers of meaning onto the singer's reality and found it emotionally rich and beautiful. The truth of the matter is when men cry over trivial things in front of women, the women see it as weakness...because it often is. You need some control over your emotional state. I don't mean suppression. I mean actually not being bothered by trivial things. Expressing emotions is fine. But if you need to express emotions triggered by petty things, that's the weakness, not crying. Crying is just the expression that reveals the weakness. Also, @Lyubov mentioned the reality that many people use crying as a form of manipulation, which is certainly true. I've seen men do this as well.

That's true. I'm not good with words and don't have time to make everything precise. "Predispose" would have been better. Because he's lead Fi, it's hard for him to not be overly vulnerable in relationships. Of course that isn't the only factor, but I count it as a big one, for him.

Women are the main facilitators of the attainment of this strength. But most guys respond with lifelong cynicism towards women rather than adapting. To be honest, I too am quite repulsed by men (and women) crying over nothing or crying often. If he's crying from beauty or love or something like that, that's fine, cry as much as you like, but crying about things not going your way in life or relationships warrants the "ick" response.

Yeah, that's apt. Yeah, personality type is huge. I had an INFP friend who was like a 9 on the looks scale and would easily attract women but he couldn't keep them around to save his life due to emotional neediness. I knew that was the reason they would all jump ship but I had a hard time telling him what he had to do to change because how do you tell someone to not be emotionally weak or habitually emotionally vulnerable when it's baked into their personality? I rarely feel the need to express emotions outwardly to other people. Like if a tragedy happens, I need to be left alone to process and grieve. There's nothing anyone can do or say to make me feel better. I don't want hugs. I get little to no catharsis from sharing my emotions with others. The only time I need to share is when there's a relationship problem to solve. But I'm not very emotional in general. I'm most emotional in dealing with loss of a loved one or something like that. I tend to be the one struggling the most at family member funerals. That's about the only situation I can't contain it and it becomes like a bursting dam. But I never felt any frustration regarding not being able to emote. I can emote quite well, I just don't see much point in doing it outwardly unless for strategic reasons. I did however witness girls getting the "ick" feeling when I was less mature in relationships. I remember one time crying my heart out to a girl that just left me and I could see it on her face. This fed my narrative that women were cold, which led to a maladaptive response, which I grew out of in late 20s. I now see the "ick" response as something like an evolutionary mechanism designed to make men stronger. I see it as an adaptive challenge, which I think is a frame men would do well to adopt, as opposed to the frame of a victim, blaming women for this or that.

Yes. What I'm saying is though, the natural gifts of the INTP easily get co-opted by the ego, and since their gifts are rejected by the mainstream, it's easy for the INTP to reject them back, and the INTP will tell themselves they're rejecting them because they are fools who do not value truth, and they will make it a huge project to identify all the ways the mainstream errs, feeding not only their drive to explore and understand systems, but also their ego's need to feel superior or not to feel inferior. I think this is a common, adaptive survival strategy of the INTP ego.

Yes, this INTP bias is important to understand. INTPs have brains that make them want to explore systems and catalog knowledge. Therefor, it comes very easily to them to adopt an identity of truth seeker. “I care about truth and almost no one else does”. This allows them to assume a superior position in a social environment that deems them weird. Mainstream calls them weird, so of course there’s a natural searching for superiority, which they easily find in their most innate tendencies. Hence the identity adoption of “iconoclastic truth seeker”. This is an actual phenomenon that all cynical/detached/neutral INTP “truth seekers” need to analyze.

A dynamic, nested possibility space, shaped by constraints and defined by perspective.

😂

Haha. Next time, be sure to cover all your basis.

Need for Cognition is an important one as well. Men do seem to generally have higher NFC. Just look at male-female chess player ratios, but I think the gap is narrowing a lot in recent years. But think about. Most guys aren’t even interested in chess. You need a high NFC for that. Low-NFC men exist in large numbers.

It’s better to generalize by personality type rather than only allowing yourself two categories. Most men I know do not engage with forums. But you know who does? INTPs. INTP males make up the majority of Reddit and forum users. There are women INTPs out there who would be forum warriors if it weren’t considered weird. Culture kinda forces them into roles they otherwise wouldn’t assume. I know a16 year old INTP girl who doesn’t do INTP stuff only because she’s trying not to be weird. Also, most men I know do not enjoy conversing on deep topics, so it’s not just “men”. It’s more so personality type. There doesn’t seem to be much utility in these overly broad generalizations about men and women.

@The Caretaker - Not sure how accurate that test is, but if you're unsure, I think this test is one of the most accurate: https://personalityhacker.com/pages/take-your-personality-test

Don't ignore your intuition. A lot of online forum talk about pickup is coming from INTPs. They feel empowered by pickup. INTJ do as well, but cannot ignore what the Fi tells them.

Yes, being locked in Fi makes you that way but most of my time is using Ni-Te. When I do get rolling around in Fi, I become selfish. Good point. As uncomfortable as I fumble about with Se, I know I’m weak there and submit to higher skill. I used to work construction under a skilled and moody ISTP who was 15 years older than me. He was often on my ass, making me feel like a total fuckup. Lol. I usually allowed it because I knew I was fucking up. It was uncomfortable, but it was good for me I think. But of course, I used my Te to accept that, which the INFP likely won’t be able to do.