Consilience

Shinzen once told a story of a Zen master who was on a Japanese talk show. The interviewer asked the roshi, what is Enlightenment? The roshi responded with something along the lines “I guess you could say enlightenment is the passing away of the distinction between enlightenment and non enlightenment.” There is a stage of enlightenment beyond the need for enlightenment to be any particular state, because it‘s recognized that what is true, is true no matter what state, and has been true even before one began meditating. Also don’t let Shinzen fool you, even his “normal” or “non-enlightened” states are way beyond 99.9% of the population. When a being lowers suffering to that degree and has that much clarity, even if one is not in a deep state there’s a dramatic difference.

I disagree. It’s true Zen isn’t about manipulating energies in the same way Kriya is, but Zen emphasizes movement, riding the ox, letting the life energy move you heavily. There’s a quote by one of the great Zen masters Hakuin, “Meditation in the midst of activity is a thousand times superior to meditation in stillness.” Have you meet a living Zen master who openly transmits? Enormous, ENORMOUS, amounts of energy. And no, not all paths emphasize this energy element by this logic. Theravada Buddhism or Christina Mysticism do not, for example.

Well they say it takes one to know one. Takes someone who‘s enlightened to know another enlightened being. If you can’t see the unimaginable wokeness of Shinzen, well… no amount of internet conversation will do it. Only practice and being woke would Also Renzai Zen is an energetic path. Shinzen talks about the whole “Zen bounce” for a reason. Zen teaches people how to unlock enormous reservoirs of energy so anyone thinking Zen is dry, tame, boring, stale, hasn’t trained in Zen, or hasn’t trained with an authentic Zen lineage holder.

That’s a bad argument man. It assumes If someone stops trying to go deeper they’ve made it. It also assumes Shinzen is still trying to go deeper which Im not even sure where that idea comes from.

It’s clear you’ve drinken the actualized koolaid regarding Buddhist awakening. You should check out the Flower Garland Sutra if you want to see just how far the Buddhist path really goes. The sutra talks about omniscience, God, infinity, and the unfathomable depths of Awakening. Actualized.org as a whole has absolutely no clue what it’s talking about regarding Buddhism. Secondly, Shinzen’s not even a Buddhist. I think your bias is that you’re speaking from belief and ignorance regarding what you project to be the final goal of awakening. I mean same here, it’s good to acknowledge our biases. From what Ive studied, Shinzen teaches way more no bullshit, straight to the heart of the matter teachings than Sadhguru. There’s a reason Sadhguru appeals to the masses. The masses aren’t interested in true liberation, it’s not something that sells well at all.

I think there's definitely uses. Soryu Forall uses transmission and it's had a significant effect on my spiritual growth. I was just meaning it's hard to base a teacher's level of Awakening on whether they're using transmission or not. Very interesting. Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if certain beings benefit more from transmission than others. I also am inclined to agree that yes some may no more than useless highs while others are highly intelligent, energetic forms of communication/reconfiguration/transformation. This is based on my own experience plus yes hearing reports from others. BUT! I also see how this could lead someone into the trap of relying on a guru figure, or a guru figure abusing power.

The same reason Peter Ralston does. Because they don't want people to turn the work into being about the teacher. I've heard Ralston say he could get people stoned, but stopped because too many people were not taking the work seriously enough and getting distracted/mistaken with what it was really about.

I'm not sure. In the Advaita Vedanta school, truth IS bliss. I've had experiences of pure emptiness being blissful, but this bliss is very different than the types of bliss from kundalini, feelings of love/energy. The bliss of truth is always present. But kundalini, feelings of love, energy and bliss, for sure can be side effects from this work.

Well maybe it's because I've done a few retreats with him now, but to me he seems very quirky, light hearted, and joyous, but also as you mentioned, extremely ordinary. So yes I can see how some would view that demeanor as flat. As you also mentioned though, once you know what to look for it becomes obvious how far Shinzen has really gone. Different paths do lead to different results yes, but the ultimate aim of the path, Enlightenment, the Truth, is synonymous, which is what is most important. At least to me.

Agreed. But as I said, I've had private conversations which give me the impression Shinzen is beyond Sahdguru. At the bear minimum, Shinzen is older and therefore has more training hours under his belt. The only reason I'm defending him here is that some noobie reading this thread could misinterpret Shinzen as not being a good source of information based on some of these comments when in reality, he's an enormously powerful source of information and inspiration. And again, unlike Sadhguru, all of Shinzen's main teachings are free in video and written format. His main teachings also cut to the heart of Enlightenment in unusually precise language, and provide a very basic framework of how to bridge practice with living life. I haven't studied with Sadhguru one on one, but from what is publicly available and popular, he is very vague, flashy, and seems to make it about him more than Shinzen, who makes it about the practice, the work. But again, I recognize both are doing good work in terms of raising awareness and that's an important acknowledgment.

He really is dude. He really is. Of course he has no reason to flaunt about it or compare himself to others. Way beyond all of that.

Shinzen is overflowing with joy, not sure what you guys are talking about. Shinzen is definitely comparable to Sadhguru. Not only that, but the precision from which he speaks is radically more advanced than anything Sadhguru has to offer, and it’s all free and on YouTube or in manuals. Shinzen’s UM system is a path to God for those who understand what he’s pointing to. Shinzen is intentionally meek, doesn’t seek to accumulate endless followers, or wealth. He intentionally limits how much he “transmits” and to the masses, this will be mistaken as “not as enlightened,” or “Zen kills the heart.” Which is particularly funny given that the Zen Master’s ultimate goal is to walk the path of the Bodhisattva, which is the most intense, heart wrenchingly compassionate heart centered path any being can walk. You’re literally vowing to continue being reincarnated until all beings are Awakened which is an impossible goal, yet they strive, endlessly and eternally. Should be noted though Shinzen isn’t a Zen teacher. At the end of the day, Shinzen wont resonate with everyone, but from my own biased experience, I would put Shinzen as being well beyond Sadhguru in level of Awakening. But Ive heard stories about and had one on one conversations with Shinzen that give me that impression. Dude is actually insanely woke, way more than you’d ever expect watching his YouTube videos.

You should check out the Monastic Academy for the Preservation of Life on Earth. The head teacher Soryu Forall trained in Rinzai Zen for a decade and has studied in other traditions as well. Doesn’t teach Zen, but very Zen inspired training environment.

Yes for sure, in the same way our true nature is excruciating pain and torment. “fundamentally it seems to me that all those feelings are appearances in and as true nature.” Yes exactly. And noticing their nature is crucial to breaking through into that which never changes yet could only be described as truly infinite.

@Razard86 Maybe I misinterpreted what you were describing but if the bliss is gone now, or if the bliss was a qualitative experience in any way shape or form, it’s not your true nature. And your true nature was what you were talking about.

If the bliss you discovered is transitory, it is not the bliss Rupert is talking about when he describes our true nature as bliss. Any blissful feelings, mind states, or anything related to perception/experience/qualia is not our true nature. Yet what you’re describing is certainly possible as a default *state* through rigorous practice, but don’t confuse this with your true nature.

@kieranperez It was a pleasure. I wish you a fruitful and auspicious journey in the monastery! We met up in Portland Oregon. Really nice timing too as it was right after I got back from training at MAPLE.

Because the nature of your identification with self is intimately tied with your clinging and craving to body, hence why you would experience fear if confronted with physical death. Long term investigation of these sensations obliterates and dissolves this false identification through this relentless observation. This is not even accounting for the beautiful, energetic, tranquil, and intrinsically rewarding states of mind available by begin to observe the body with real mindfulness. Self inquiry is a perfectly valid approach as well. But to dismiss the rational for vipassana body scanning would be to misunderstand the rational.

That's only about an hour and a half away according to google maps... If they are letting visitors come I would really love making a trip to come meetup. I have met Peter, multiple times. I ended up doing the 2 week CI last fall. It was incredible and really set the foundation for how my time at MAPLE has been. And yes, Peter has an insane presence. During one of his q&a sessions he ended up just no talking for like 25 mins or so transmitting in silence... Still processing. I remember asking him about the fear of death and he turned to me, looked me square in the eyes and said "You need to understand - You will die." and finished the question. But what was most profound was with that single sentence, he seemed to cut through this part of the mind that couldn't believe in its own inhalation, as though I wasn't really convinced one day would be it. Since then my relationship to death has subtlety but significantly changed. Yeah, Peter is the real deal. Yes. Apparently Harada Roshi has been referred to as the "Nuclear Reactor" of Zen because of his energy... LOL. Soryu is as masculine as Peter, as funny as Peter, but I suppose because he's almost 30 year younger, there's an energy about Soryu I didn't experience with Peter. There's also a compassionate wrathfulness about Soryu. He REALLY cares about the destruction of life on the planet, yet also understands the Absolute and is completely unafraid of death, and the destruction of life on the planet. There's been recent controversies around how Soryu teaches regarding existential risk and his "angry" communication style. Many people can't psychologically handle how he dismantles worldviews and shows all of the ways we're bullshitting ourselves. From what I understand, I've only experienced a fraction of what Soryu has to offer in terms of the intensity. Hoping he finds a way to teach without holding back. From what I'm reading, you'd probably really like Soryu. Technically though, he never received transmission from Harada so cannot formally teach Zen. However, the training structure, style, and vibe is very Zen influenced. Yeah man super excited to hear you're pursuing the monastic path. It's truly incredible. It's good that you've seen what a healthy community looks like and therefore can determine whether Great Vow is a good fit for long term training. I imagine it will be though; I've heard nothing but good things. From what I know of you, yeah your path will go deep entering into an intensive training environment. God speed brother.

Please let me know which one! Ill be back in Oregon soon. My time at MAPLE has been utterly profound. Soryu is like the bodhisattva version of Peter Ralston in his younger years. My practice has enormously deepened and Ive never had more clarity about my direction in life. It’s also incredible how healthy the community here is. I don’t think Ive ever encountered such a large number of genuinely trust worthy people. Definitely still a growing, maturing sangha and we aren’t perfect, but the values here are spot on. Integrity, responsibility, kindness, compassion, and a focus on awakening are all pillars.

I havent, correct. Only NN-DMT. But my goals aren’t reach the highest state as possible. My goals are complete enlightenment, which transcends 5MeO. The qualitative reconfiguration offered by 5MeO is in principle, the same as what is offered through other psychedelics it’s just thay the degree, depth, and content differ. So even though Ive never tried (which its still on my to do list btw), the integration lessons would remain the same - 1. to permanently raise one’s state requires enormous manual practice. 2. Enlightenment is ultimately not about states, it‘s dramatically more radical.

This. Real solipsism is infinite unity and interconnectivity. The same energy that moves our breath moves the stars. The same light “behind” the eyes of another is our very nature. It is beautiful and in no way lonely, when the mind stops its endless fabricating and interpreting, and instead truth is seen directly and clearly.

@kieranperez I should have also added a 4th point which is many people who dont succeed with meditation also aren’t working with a high quality teacher.

That’s true. If she can transmit the fear of non-existence/death through the pointings, it could be very helpful. It just ‘seems’ as though most minds end up adopting beliefs rather than seeing clearly. But then if those minds were to sit alone quietly for hours on end they’d just be distracted, lost in fabrication and delusion. Which of course is not separate from the truth yet the paradox being there is no recognition of the truth, nor the recognition of the truth of the lack of recognizing the truth.

Same ol neo advaita dribble. Not helpful for those wanting to reach authentic realization/liberation, a decent description of ultimate reality for those who are awake. Just one of many neo advaita youtube channels, almost like fast food spirituality.