Mu_

Something that I've observed a number of times within this forum that is a common issue from what I've gathered along my journey and through other spiritual teachers is some misconceptions seekers learn/misinterpret on the spiritual journey. Thought and thinking in of themselves hold no bearing on suffering or not, or are inherently a barrier to waking up. Its the compulsion, the believing of scenarios of stress/fear/hate/worry/shame/guilt etc..., the habit of this and the type of thoughts we have of ourselves, is what CAN cause suffering. (again a important capitilization, because its not always the case and is not to be learned as a rule or create a new mode of functioning for you to try and emulate enlightenment, or right functioning, or supposed to be this way type of behavior). But to demonize the activity of thinking itself and the thought process is also to get lost in another form of bondage and suffering, one in which "You" are trying to avoid thoughts, feelings, beliefs, or re-write them in yourself, or think they aren't there, or believe that your not thinking them, and that keeps your eyes off of knowing yourself and just living. Thinking, planning and the arisal of thoughts that happen during this process and just on their own (like a dripping facet, that is of no control of our own) is normal and is apart of being human, is not taking "You" away or create some sort of barrier preventing something (another subtle belief within seeker circles that keeps the vigilant/sincere seeker confused and frustrated when such normal functioning is present) This understanding can also verbatim be applied to the emotional experience. Seekers again form beliefs that emotions of all sorts are inherent distractions from attaining awakening or inherently create a barrier of some sort or take away awareness from being free (and many more ideas, insert your own). Again emotions are just that, emotions, and most often together with beliefs about them. What "You" ultimately are is never not here and no emotion or thought or belief is a prevention, problem or obstacle to living freely right now. Even the experience of "You" believing you dont know who you are is just that, a belief, its not a inherent problem, idea that needs to be changed, moved, reacted to, something to get frustrated over, its just "You" as you are right then, or right now as you read this. Hope that helps.

So if I understand you right, your saying that when you stop wanting to avoid discomfort this slows down the movement of thought. That make sense to me, since resisting/avoiding is done through thought and emotion. The less of one the less of the other. However my sense of you from reading your posts and this may be wrong, is that you sometimes have some idea's of thought and thinking, that see them negatively in some way. Like you believe that less of them is closer to awakening. Am I correct in this observation? Because I was going to make a post about the false idea of this notion, since its a common spiritual inference that I've read about and seen people get caught up in and deal dealt with in myself. Thought and thinking in of themselves hold no bearing on suffering or not, or are inherently a barrier to waking up. Its the compulsion, the believing of scenarios of stress/fear/hate/worry/shame/guilt etc..., the habit of this and the type of thoughts we have of ourselves, is what CAN cause suffering. (again a important capitilization, because its not always the case and is not to be learned as a rule or create a new mode of functioning for you to try and emulate enlightenment, or right functioning, or supposed to be this way type of behavior). But to demonize the activity of thinking itself and the thought process is also to get lost in another form of bondage and suffering, one in which "You" are trying to avoid thoughts, feelings, beliefs, or re-write them in yourself, or think they aren't there, or believe that your not thinking them, and that keeps your eyes off of knowing yourself and just living. Thinking, planning and the arisal of thoughts that happen during this process and just on their own (like a dripping facet, that is of no control of our own) is normal and is apart of being human, is not taking "You" away or create some sort of barrier preventing something (another subtle belief within seeker circles that keeps the vigilant/sincere seeker confused and frustrated when such normal functioning is present)

I would even go as far to say, its not a intentional mechanic, its happening, and it sometimes feels like there is control of doing it or the belief of having part in it, but ultimately it is just happening.

Oh I'm with you. Non-experience is a metaphor, not literal, on your end. However since we are all putting ourselves out there, And this is to you Jack, at what point do "you" actually know that your experience is not influenced by thought. What objectivity has proven to you that your experience is clear of thought/divided/limited perception? Do you just believe it in the moment, make no further assumption at this point, see some conveyor belt going by that you then can stamp as clear of thought influence, clear of limited perception, etc....

Something happening/Something being/something is both a mental knowing and a part of the Self. What did you just describe to me if nothing is LITERALLY happening. Nothing happening is a void in which NOTHING is happening zero, abscense, but since Self is ALL, there is no abscense, there is no LITERAL nothing.

So then non-experience is a type/sub set of experience? Because right now the use of non-experience is like saying a dog speaks spanish.

@winterknight Also when I use the word knowledge/understanding Im referring to a knowing. Like if asked you is something happening, it would be obvious that something is happening. You may call this something, Self, and I would agree, or not, but either way there is knowing of some sort that something is happening.

Hmm we may have to leave it at that, because to me that sounds like one of the many infinite varieties/vantage points of Self that are always taking place, one being you and one being me (which are not different and yet are). What ever your point to though sounds nice, but again how can the noticing of something/or acknowledgement of something that you obviously describee as continuous with no pause, yet isn't an experience. Are we in semantic criss cross? My definition of experience is fairly straightforward here. If its noticed, its experience, if its dust mite biting you behind your ear, but you dont notice it, its not experienced. Its taking place, but its not your experience. So what are you saying?

Well technically there are no seekers that are not breathing or have no heartbeat. ok so what your saying is, understanding and knowledge that remain, not a tactile experience of oneness, expansion, or void/emptiness (these come and go). Because for so long in the past I and I think many current seekers believe that the later is what is to be found and cultivated through practice and is held onto as attainments thinking that this is what it means to wake up and by holding or creating more of these they are more enlightened. I'd have to go over Ramana and advita again, but was this what they were always trying to point to?

There are many things that don't come and go, one being experiencing itself, another is heartbeat, another is breath (speaking from the point of view of the un-awakened Self). But experiencing itself is not ultimate truth, its not the self knowledge of Self. Neither is the heartbeat or the breath. Again it seems like your trying to point to something that is experienced after a certain point called enlightenment, even though from my experience, experiences leads to awakening, but after that there isn't anything there that continues to prove ultimate truth is happening, other then one just knows who they are.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by true "I" becomes obvious? It sounds like your referring to a phenomenon/experience is arising in consciousness. From my experience, a unshakable conviction and self knowledge, not a phenomenon of sight/experience that convinces is what took place, almost like Self memory returned, memories of before being, seeing before born and then a remembrance like I just found some keys I had forgotten I placed somewhere and now found, remain.

No, poof, Mikael remembers who Mikael is, like find keys you forgot you lost. Mikael embrasses his limited history with tremendous love, understands the present moment and is not afraid of the future. Born and unborn, knowing all as Self and self as Self. Laughing at the hilarity of it all, while not brushing any of it off as unimportant.

Paul Hedderman teaches in the Bay Area pretty much every week. Look him up, he's legit, non-dual teacher. funny as shit sometimes, has a guy at the bar vibe and has a fresh+old school take on things.

More importantly whats aware of this I?

Can you elaborate on your enlightenment experiences, like you were going to teach me something. Really from your heart, not from a book or a translation of what you thought it meant, just what really touched you. That way I can get a sense of what you deeply know or have touched upon.

Ummm, this isn't really my strong suit. Id just start looking for books and male female dynamics in regards to relationships and even ex-relationship dynamics. Sorry wish I could help more. Its honestly a rather muddy, hard to understand terrain, since both parties are hiding their true feelings, or one is and the other is not and as a result, one person appears to the other as making no sense. One shows no interest, then when you leave them alone, they come back wanting more then they said they wanted relationship wise, because one is shy, doesn't want to get hurt, wants to hurt the other, but then realizes they don't so they stop and act nice, the list goes on and on......

Do you need to know if your enlightened? No one can tell you. I think its more important to focus on what you want. What do you still want to improve in yourself? How would you like to help others specifically and how can you act on that in a step by step fashion? Pursue your desires in this manner. Sometimes the less you know about spirit and enlightenment the better, just follow what you want and stay faithful to your heart. If you find yourself in genuine confusion and need of guidance, then find that, otherwise if what you say is true, your doing just fine.

I mean if thats its your experience congratulations. Put the coat on the coat rack and call it a life. I congratulate you. Continue being you in the world and uplift others. -Are you just curious about what is enlightenment? -Are you craving more understanding, is there a yearning inside you to keep discovering you can't put your finger on? But to answer your question, some might agree that what you describe is Enlightenment, others may not. In the end its just a word. All is god. The end.

I can only speak from my experience. But if your looking for something to happen (Self-Realization) that can't stand the test of objectified scrutinization, you'll miss it. I've been really trying to answer the very specific nature of your question for a little while now, because I think it holds the key to more people waking up. The best analogy I can put it in, is, you just remember something you forgot, like oh ya I put my keys over there. Prior you had no knowledge of where the keys were, and then boom, oh ya they are right here.... but like many other awakened teachers have commented on in the past, breaking down your ego through spiritual practice increases the chances to have the remembrance.

Thats spot on. I've said it before, but its very clean in the way you worded it.

From the absolute sense, there is no objects. Just itself. So the question is really just Self happening/being (still just experiential meaning metaphors), not the language and experience of what is falsely being pointed to

Thats amazing dude. Haha I love rap. You got skills man.

Would you say these are reoccurring events that bring the same result or similar suffering? Are you tired of it? Maybe its time to look at this and make some new choices to become less selfish, gain a little more self control and stop taking things for granted. Just be real man, do you want to repeat this pattern? If so do something, if not accept it and move on.

Sounds like my frustrations sometimes, with god being, suffering. Your human man.....

Ya thats an interesting phenomenon that can happen with this practice. You can also while being present and aware of negative sensations in your body, visualize/intend for them to shift/dissipate/move and have them shift this way as well. I'm a bodyworker by trade and some of the work I do with people works with these principles. Feel free to ask me anything else in this regards.