tsuki

Aren't all even stages like that? Blue, Green, Turquoise? Ideology has a different meaning for all people, mind you. Turquoise ideology is not something for the sake of something else, like in case of Green for example.

At this point, I'm starting to think that Blue is the nonduality of Red. Orange is the nonduality of Blue. Green is the nonduality of Yellow, etc.

There is no way to tell which color any person is. By saying which color these quotes are, I express my understanding of spiral dynamics. Talking about others is an expression of your self. It is impossible to meaningfully say anything about anyone apart from yourself. Describing others is describing yourself. Can you see that? It is a non-ideological benevolence. Benevolence, not for the sake of anything else and not an existential assumption. Having said that, I'm going to judge those quotes. They are very reminiscent of the turquoise quotes on the spiral dynamics website. However, they express a longing, or nostalgia for the days in which Dylan thought that the world is simpler. When he believed in things (lies). I know that Dylan inspires you Markus. Aren't you absorbing his nostalgia with those quotes? Or perhaps, you're being drawn to him because of it?

@stevegan928 The person you're trying to type as yellow is not the same person @Joseph Maynor speaks about. Both of you have a perspective of JRE and you are expressing this perspective's color. This assessment is informed by your understanding of spiral dynamics, so you are actually both talking about yourselves. Turquoise is a network of perspectives not by acquisition, but by recognition. Can you see that, @Joseph Maynor ?

I came up with the following distinction and would like to hear a second opinion. Green sees that everybody has their own point of view and sees them as a part of society that should ideally work towards a common goal. It sees that everybody is essentially equal by the virtue of emotional response to transgression of personal values. It tries to harmonize and align their value systems so that they can account for everybody else in cooperation. The means through which it harmonizes people is by subjecting them to common good, the society. It is different from blue in the sense that rules of said society are not established by authority. The rules are established as the path of least resistance through various value systems and optimize mean happiness of an individual. They are not good or bad in the absolutist (blue) sense, but are at best good enough. They are established by consensus. Yellow on the other hand sees that not only everyone is equal in the green sense, but also every single one of them is always, strictly speaking, right. It sees that there is no common ground when it comes to comparing perspectives. Every single human has his own, disjoint world. A perspective is a self-contained universe that responds to stimuli in a way that makes sense for this particular perspective. When one person speaks, the other hears his own interpretation. The interpretation that is predicated on his perspective. When Green tries to subject Red to common good, Red sees common good as something else than Green. They may even agree on what to do (verbally), but go about it in opposite ways with benevolent intent. It makes no sense to judge Red from Green's perspective. All perspectives are disjoint. The key difference is that Green fails to see this crucial distinction that there is no common ground to compare perspectives. You cannot put people on a single playground and expect them to follow common rules, as they understand them differently. You have to treat each person as playing its own game, and construct society as a mechanism composed of different (living and feeling) parts. That's a whole different level of complexity that requires systemic thinking.

Not only do you think that you have control, but you also think that you have control over control itself so that you can give it up. You're silly. Control and letting go are a manifestation of something. Think of them like two directions of an axis. Positive and negative numbers that are connected by the virtue of sitting on the same number line. In order to explore that axis you need to experience both. You can also go about it in a different way. Pursue maximum, 100% control and see yourself go back full circle into having no control at all. Do that enough times and you will awaken to the axis. Good luck.

It may sound banal and cliche, but hear me out: there is no you to be lost. The empty bliss you experience is the natural state that is being clouded by thoughts. It is not that thoughts are covering it up. You have became aware enough so that you can experience both. This is a preliminary step to experience emptiness and thought at the same time. The thing that prevents you is that you think that you think your thoughts. You don't. Thoughts arise by themselves. They calm down by themselves. The fact that you sit and meditate has nothing to do with it. There is no you to be lost.

@White That is an absolutely outstanding piece of text. Thank you for sharing it. I will definitely go through the book. I can tell that what I called as Yellow in the OP is a stage that supersedes the Autonomous person. It is also backed up by @Joseph Maynor 's post. Very interesting. I'm kind of skeptical about all of this, as I'm trying to map theories onto my own experience. I identified as Yellow and tried to express my perspective, but it seems that I have transcended that as well. Skepticism comes from the fact that I'm only 29 without any formal study of self-actualization. It seems absurd to me. It's sounds like Ego talk, but for some reason I don't feel disgusted by it.

Hey, @Leo Gura. I just thought that it would be a good idea to put this thread in a form of a playlist on your channel. You could create playlists for all colors like that. You could synergize your forum with youtube that way.

Emotions and thoughts are means through which understanding manifests itself. They are a lie in a certain sense, but to see that you need to first learn to trust them to see their limitations. The sense in which they are a lie is related to how all understanding is maya.

Let yourself cry. As you cry your pains out - it will be easier to accept the vanishing. Cry until you tire yourself enough to let everything vanish. It was never yours to begin with. You are weeping over your own condition.

I like the way you've put it. The self-observing Ego. Are you aware of the vast difference between the two? It is not that yellow is just less dualistic. To yellow, dualism is a miscommunication. It is not that dualism does not make sense. Dualism is when two people speak the same words, but talk about two different things and still come to agreement (without understanding each other). Dualist perception of the world is a misunderstanding that constructs different levels of consciousness. It does not make these levels wrong however, but right! This thing runs sooo deep! I'm going to cook a post sometime in the future about that. It may become a journal about nonlinear perception.

I agree! Can't wait for the next video!

@Arkandeus Oh, and by the way: your sexuality is not repressed. You see it clearly. Repression is a blind spot that comes with your morality. There are many ways in which you can interpret any given act. Some of these interpretations are forbidden/repressed for your mind in relation to your own acts. If you ever see other people as evil/bad/sinful and cannot understand why they do something - it is a clear sign of what is repressed in you. We hate others when they exhibit our repressed self. Because they can do what is forbidden for us.

The mind is not a control unit, but an interpretation machine. You experience sexual attraction, and yet do not act it out. It is not because the mind exerts self-control and stops you from doing it. The mind processes your sexual attraction through your morality and the result of this processing is guilt. Guilt is an information about the relation between acting your fantasies out and your morality. It says: don't you fucking do it if you ever plan to look at yourself in the mirror. It is an information. A summary. Your fear comes from mistaking the mind for a control unit. That the mind can fail and produce 'bad outcomes'. It is the other way around. The mind interprets itself as a control unit that can fail and spells this interpretation out as a thought-story you are writing here. It then judges this thought-story as dangerous and communicates fear. Fear is then a reason to over-think and produce more stories. Ad nauseam. My advice is: trust yourself. You won't do anything you don't want to do. You are not grabbing this butt because you don't want to. If you will ever want to grab that butt, you will not fear grabbing it. You will do it. It is that simple.

No, you aren't arguing at the same level as them. I was saying that you treat others as below you and you get shat at because of that. That serves no purpose other than aggravate people even if it is stated as a fact. You are actively sabotaging your message by doing it. I was asking what is the value of nurturing self-stories that are expressed as hierarchy of development in your posts. What I got in return is the defense of your title as a teacher. I actually feel bad because of the following misunderstanding. Not for you @Joseph Maynor , as you don't seem to care, but for others in this thread. We are all making fools of ourselves here, defending things from imaginary adversaries.

@George FilThat's a tough situation. Do they understand that they cause you problems? If they do understand that, then are they willing to accept your help in reforming them? I would be very surprised if that was the case. They are your parents, after all, so from their perspective you are probably just a kid that knows no better. They have raised you and supported you (hopefully), so it may be reasonable from their perspective to request support from you. You are a family and your lives are interconnected. If you fail professionally (for whatever reason) they are a safety net you have. Are you willing to cut ties with them? Having that option as a last resort may seem cruel and ungrateful, but without it you have no way of establishing boundaries for the extent of help you provide. Contemplating the option of having no parents may actually make you realize that the price you're paying is small in comparison to being without the safety net that they are (however small). You have the right to live your life however you see fit. You will experience consequences of that, though. How you treat your parents will affect the way you will perceive the actions of your children. Treat your parents dismissively, and you will be aware of this possibility towards yourself from your children. Some things are not worth doing, regardless of material costs. Not saying that cutting ties is one of them. It's up to you.

Have you considered that they don't need your help? They have raised you to be the wonderful, independent and self-actualized person you are. Even if their involvement was simply giving you the counter-example of a perfect life so that you know what to avoid. Ask them what they need. Don't be wiser than others. If they tell you that they don't need anything - don't give them anything. It's their life. They cannot be saved from themselves.

@Leo Gura So, are you saying that no reason whatsoever would necessitate slavery to a person in a green stage? What if a green person recognizes generalized idea of slavery within, let's say, capitalism? Or that generalization would also be unfathomable to a green person?

An honest smile will see its own reflection, no matter where it looks. I enjoyed your poem!

Are you sure about that? Can't same actions come about through different reasons?

Why are you assuming that it is natural for the animal to hurt others? Is hurting others the first thing that comes to mind when I say that you should let yourself go? Rape is a sexual transgression of personal identity. When you are forcibly taken anally, it is your morality is being violated which brings about long-term suffering. When there are two people involved that had let go of their personal identity and attachments, there can be no rape. When two people had let go of their mind, there is even no sex anymore. Letting go is not something you do on your own. It is impossible to let go with a stranger (at least for me). Letting go requires two-way trust. This is why sex is different from masturbation.

@Arkandeus Exclusive feelings: attraction and repulsion. Being curious and grossed out. From my experience, blockages like this come from trying to establish that a subject (sexuality in this context) is either good or bad. It is neither. You cannot make a decision like that and expect it to stick with you. Decisions you make serve only as food for further contemplation, and never actually prevent anything. Guilt comes from contradiction of prior decisions. You may be treating them too seriously. Is the mere fact of being sexually attracted to someone disgusting to you, or the 'content' of said attraction? Do you feel ashamed by things that turn you on? Are their inappropriate? In my experience, sexuality is an outlet of repressed urges. It is not that things that you judge as evil are the things that turn you on. It is the other way around - as you let yourself be aroused and let go, all of the repressed things start to surface. In order to be aroused, you need to go with the flow. To let yourself be the vessel of your animal nature. Animal nature is not immoral. It is amoral. It does no good and evil. It doesn't do anything. It simply is, and whatever happens - is. It is terrifying to the mind, as it directly contradicts its narrative of control. The mind gets it completely backwards. It is not a control unit, but an interpretation machine. Repression does not prevent you from doing, but from seeing. As you let go of your repression during arousal, it becomes scarily apparent. It is the mind that interprets itself as a control unit. Realizing that is a serious threat to reality. It is a sign of your blockage to see their silence as blockage. There are reasons to remain silent even if you are not repressed. Finding good, honest reasons for that within yourself will relieve you from your blockage. You will be free to talk about it, but there will be no need to. Unless you see them like I do now.

Sure. You are over my head. I'm a nobody .

I'm not a spiritual teacher, but let me tell you why I don't talk about it in detail. The details are dependent on the unique aspects of personalities involved. There is no way that I can meaningfully express her personality in a post on a forum. I don't understand her. She doesn't understand herself. I don't even understand myself! How do I write anything meaningful in this situation and expect anything meaningful in return? Attraction and repulsion. Connection attracts us, consuming repulses us. It is when two people, willingly, give themselves to attraction and repulsion, something is born. We become a vessel, a tool, for something greater than two connected people. When you devour her and she devours you, there is no 'person' that stands above the other. There is no master and a slave. There is only us. It is very reminiscent of the work you do upon yourself to become enlightened. You give yourself to yourself and let yourself be who you are. You remove the blockages and flow. Relationship is when two people flow in themselves and flow in relation to each other. When you witness this dance, even fighting is beautiful. It is not that you feel grossed by talking about sexuality. You are curious and grossed out at the same time. Without witnessing excess, there can be no balance. Sexual attraction and crushes are means to bear the proximity of another person for a period of time. They will wear out. In the meantime, you build something different. Love. Love cannot be said. Love is contextual. Love is the dance. Tell me more about your repulsion. You can do it here, or PM me, if you would like.